![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 160 to 184 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on September 8, 2004, at 16:42:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 16:19:58
> Hi Kara, haven't quite got the hang of posting, think I might have replied to the wrong people!
>
> RayHi Ray,
I don't have time now to answer your posts. Ironically, though you mistakenly sent your last message to Larry, he's actually the one who could answer it. In fact, most of your questions he'd be the one to answer them. He knows a lot more than I do (as do you). I'm sure he'll get back to you soon. At any rate, I've enjoyed reading your posts and will reply more later.Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 9, 2004, at 10:33:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
> TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
This sort of thing mystifies me. I feel awful with some brands of B12, as well. I wish I had access to chromatography equipment. I'd like to get to the bottom of this.
> Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine?
I suppose that's a possible explanation.
> This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
That effect is partially mediated by low blood insulin. If you're hyperglycemic.....
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=Abstract
The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>
> Have taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
>
> I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.
> So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!Hmmmm.....I'll be think about this.....
> PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
> Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.I'm really glad you have pointed this out. Sometimes I just forget some key issues, and this is clearly one of those.
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too?Not that I'm aware of. It does induce p-glycoprotein.....oh, as you say....
> Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!
>
> RayKeep talking, dude.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on September 10, 2004, at 5:02:56
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 9, 2004, at 10:33:51
Hi Larry, I've looked up a bit more about biotpterin, thought you might be interested...
>The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>I think I may have a reduced function of phenylalanine hydroxylase, that may behave like PKU when I'm low in the co-factors like biopterin and NADPH - here's some abstracts that may explain..
Depression and biopterin
Mental illness in mild PKU responds to biopterin
http://www.bh4.org/pdf/koch.pdfBiopterin responsive phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency.
>Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.Not sure about folate being a substrate for biopterin - I heard several people say it is, but some articles say it's synthesized from GTP....
'An enzyme (dihydrobiopterin synthetase), involved in the synthesis of pterins from GTP has been implicated in this disorder (see Fig. 3). [Note that, in contrast to similar coenzymes (flavins and folates), biopterin can be synthesized by humans and is, therefore, not derived from a vitamin.]'
>I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
I do take selenium in thiodox from allergy research - it has both riboflavin and selenium to help reduce glutathione - I don't seem to do that well with selenium alone.
Thanks,
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 10, 2004, at 9:03:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 10, 2004, at 5:02:56
> Hi Larry, I've looked up a bit more about biotpterin, thought you might be interested...
Oh, yeah. I like it when someone shows me where I'm missing pieces of the puzzle.
> >The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>
>
> I think I may have a reduced function of phenylalanine hydroxylase, that may behave like PKU when I'm low in the co-factors like biopterin and NADPH - here's some abstracts that may explain..How do you respond to tyrosine? The very same cofactors apply there, as well.
> Depression and biopterin
>
> Mental illness in mild PKU responds to biopterin
> http://www.bh4.org/pdf/koch.pdf
>
> Biopterin responsive phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14726806I love those "light-bulb moments". <grin> It's starting to make sense to me, why some people respond better to 5-HTP than to trytophan. They're already past the hydroxylase "bottleneck". I didn't even know there was such an enzymatic restriction, even in theory. Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
http://jms.ndmctsgh.edu.tw/PDF/2203095.pdf
If you paste the title of the following into google, and search with the quotation marks, you'll come to a full-text link (registration required, but free):
FACTA UNIVERSITATIS
Series: Medicine and Biology Vol.11, No 2, 2004, pp. 49 - 54 UC 577+61BIOCHEMICAL FUNCTIONS AND CLINICAL IMPORTANCE OF UNCONJUGATED PTERIDINES
Gordana Bjelaković1, Tatjana Jevtović-Stoimenov1, Bojko Bjelaković2, Ivana Stojanović1 1Institute of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Niš 2Clinic of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, University of Niš, Serbia and Montenegro
Summary. Tetrahydrobiopterine (BH4) and its relatives are classified as unconjugated pteridines or pterins distinguishing them from the folates. BH4 is not a vitamin for mammals, since they can synthesize it. GTP is the major precursor of atoms in the pterin nucleus. The initial step in this pathway is conversion of GTP to D-erythro-7, 8-dihydroneopterin triphosphate, a reaction catalyzed by the enzyme GTP-cyclohydrolase I (EC 3.5.4.16; GTP-CH). There are many important metabolic functions of BH4: it is a crucial cofactor in hydroxylation reactions of phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophane. The finding of BH4 participation in monoaminergic neurotransmitter metabolism regulation contributed to the knowledge of atipic neurological symptoms in some kinds of "phenylketonuric" children. As a cofactor of nitric oxide syntheses BH4 is a crucial metabolite involved in physiological function of cardiovascular system. The literature data confirm that the BH4 depletion is crucial in the control of both NO and superoxide generation (H2O2), synthesized by endothelial NOS isoforms, and consequently the formation of cell toxic peroxynitrite (ONOO −). Relationships between biosynthesis of BH4 and guanine nucleotide regulatory proteins (G proteins) or GTP-binding proteins taking part in protein synthesis has to be explained. The idea that all oxidases using molecular oxygen and producing H2O2 need BH4 appears rather relevant and it may explain more successfully the polyamine oxidase activity (PAO) in the regulation of polyamine metabolism.
> >Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.
>
> Not sure about folate being a substrate for biopterin - I heard several people say it is, but some articles say it's synthesized from GTP....
>
> 'An enzyme (dihydrobiopterin synthetase), involved in the synthesis of pterins from GTP has been implicated in this disorder (see Fig. 3). [Note that, in contrast to similar coenzymes (flavins and folates), biopterin can be synthesized by humans and is, therefore, not derived from a vitamin.]'Quite correct, upon closer examination. There was once thought to be an interchange between these two systems, probably because folate can serve as a less efficient cofactor for e.g. NO-synthase. It was believed that shunting between folate and H4-biopterin must be taking place. I see that is not the case. The death of another factoid. (Factoid was coined by a friend of mine, to describe a factual truth assumed by most people, which upon closer examination, does not stand up to scrutiny.)
> >I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
>
> I do take selenium in thiodox from allergy research - it has both riboflavin and selenium to help reduce glutathione - I don't seem to do that well with selenium alone.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RayOK, the problem I see with biopterin defects (two real possibilities, one in de novo synthesis, the other in recycling of H2B back to H4B), is that H4B is both very poorly absorbed from the gut (some estimates at about 12%), and does not readily cross the blood-brain barrier. Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
Thanks for joining our little world, dude. Brains tend to work in synergy (sum greater than the parts), IMHO.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 10, 2004, at 9:03:49
Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
>Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
Yes that sounds a good idea, although I seem to be doing amazingly well just upregulating the enzymes. Have you heard about the kynurenine pathway that breaks down tryptophan to niacin? Just wonder if people with autoimmune disease degrade a lot of tryptophan before it can get to 5-HTP as interferon gamma seems to trigger that pathway. It's interesting that this pathway has to be triggered in pregnancy, to stop the mother's immmune system rejecting the baby. Tryptophan metabolites at the start of the pathway seem to be neuroprotective, but as the pathway nears niacin, metabolites like quinolinic acid are highly neurotoxic - seems like niacin/naicinamide can provide negative feedback to this pathway.
>(Factoid was coined by a friend of mine, to describe a factual truth assumed by most people, which upon closer examination, does not stand up to scrutiny.)
What a great word....might use it myself now too!!
how about Presidentoid?! Ooops that's a bit poilitical... but as I'm from the UK, maybe i should say Blairoid!>Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
I seem to do better on niacinamide rather than NADH - if fact I feel very little with NADH, which is surprising considering how important it is to the pathways we've been discussing. I'm guessing that maybe I need the large dose of niacinamide to inhibit the parp molecule I mentioned before. Parp seems to be involved in the pathogenesis of many diseases - for example this abstract finds that inhibiting parp can stop homocysteine induced blood vessel damage.
'Poly(ADP-Ribose) Polymerase Inhibition Prevents Homocysteine-Induced Endothelial Dysfunction in the Isolated Rat Aorta.'
and this is interesting too...
Thanks,
Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 4:52:21
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by KaraS on September 8, 2004, at 16:42:41
Hi Kara,
Just been reading a book called "children with starving brains" about the chemisty of autism spectrum disorders. One part of the book mentions an enzyme called DPP IV (available as a supplement from kirkman labs), involved in regulation of the immune and nervous system, and particularly helpful in autoimmunity and depression. Apparently mercury, gluten from wheat and casein from milk can bind DPP IV and trigger brain fog, inflammation and depression.
I have bought some DPP IV and found it does have an anti depressive and head clearing effect for me - have you heard of it or know anyone else who has used it?
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 22, 2004, at 9:55:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
> Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
Minds interacting like this....priceless.
I may have overstressed myself. I may be going through a cyclical slump. I may have had an adverse reaction to green tea. I may be.....????
I just want to say that my brain went on holiday, and it is coming back, slowly. Some posts to this board have occurred, but they are the easy ones for me. The ones where I can answer blind-folded, almost.
I hope that people retain their interest in the various threads. I have. I just have to be patient with myself.
Back soon.
Lar
Posted by karaS on September 22, 2004, at 10:06:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 4:52:21
> Hi Kara,
>
> Just been reading a book called "children with starving brains" about the chemisty of autism spectrum disorders. One part of the book mentions an enzyme called DPP IV (available as a supplement from kirkman labs), involved in regulation of the immune and nervous system, and particularly helpful in autoimmunity and depression. Apparently mercury, gluten from wheat and casein from milk can bind DPP IV and trigger brain fog, inflammation and depression.
>
> I have bought some DPP IV and found it does have an anti depressive and head clearing effect for me - have you heard of it or know anyone else who has used it?
Raybakes,I have never heard of this before. It's fascinating especially since I have mercury fillings and Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I'll have to try this. Thanks so much for the heads-up!
Kara
Posted by karaS on September 22, 2004, at 10:07:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 22, 2004, at 9:55:03
> > Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
>
> Minds interacting like this....priceless.
>
> I may have overstressed myself. I may be going through a cyclical slump. I may have had an adverse reaction to green tea. I may be.....????
>
> I just want to say that my brain went on holiday, and it is coming back, slowly. Some posts to this board have occurred, but they are the easy ones for me. The ones where I can answer blind-folded, almost.
>
> I hope that people retain their interest in the various threads. I have. I just have to be patient with myself.
>
> Back soon.
>
> Lar
We understand sweetie - just take care of yourself.Kara
Posted by raybakes on September 23, 2004, at 2:51:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 22, 2004, at 9:55:03
Hope your feeling better soon Larry!
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 4:47:00
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 13:19:49
Hi Ray,
I've got hashimotos too(anti TPO, Anti TG) ..and probably a bit more on the autoimmune side going on.(not tested)I think I need more ACTH. I'm sorry but I get lost trying to follow most of these articles. I see that interleukin 1? stimulates ACTH possibly?
Now what is interleukin 1.?
I find tyrosine seems to give me lots of dopamine I think. I know I can deaden tooth pain from a hole in a tooth completely with just 500mg tyrosine a day (repeatedly) and other aches in body.
I've also found out (about a year ago) that anesthetic , like prilocaine for dental work has NIL effect if no adrenaline is added..apparently I don't vasoconstrict?Bit about me ...I'm on time released thyroid meds and occasionally cortisol(small amts for a few days) to deaden inflammation when I feel overhigh antibody activity, or if I get too stressed and can't cope with a situation. I don't seem to be able to automatically produce the needed cortisol, I think. (exhausted adrenals probably)
Any ideas if tyosine would produce IL1? or if thyroid meds like synthetic T4 would make things worse...I am trialling adding in T4 to my Armour?
Sorry, I'm lost here
Jan
Posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 4:47:00
Hi Jan, looked up a few things for you to read!
>I've got hashimotos too(anti TPO, Anti TG) ..and probably a bit more on the autoimmune side going on.(not tested)
found this abstract explaining that interleukin 1 lowers TG...
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/138/5/2043
I think I need more ACTH. I'm sorry but I get lost trying to follow most of these articles. I see that interleukin 1? stimulates ACTH possibly?
Now what is interleukin 1.?Interleukin 1 is a pro-inflammatory cytokine (messenger of the immune system). In autoimmune disease it seems likely that excessive interleukin 1 can overdrive the adrenals to exhaustion. I have a genetic error in my interleukin 1ra gene that would naturally inhibit IL 1. Trying to drive the adrenals even harder with more ACTH when they're exhausted might not be a good idea!
>I find tyrosine seems to give me lots of dopamine I think. I know I can deaden tooth pain from a hole in a tooth completely with just 500mg tyrosine a day (repeatedly) and other aches in body.
I've also found out (about a year ago) that anesthetic , like prilocaine for dental work has NIL effect if no adrenaline is added..apparently I don't vasoconstrict?Tyrosine is also the precursor to T4 and T3, T4 has four iodines added, and T3 has four added and one taken away. So I wonder if the tyrosine gives your thyroid a boost...heres a bit about thyroid and pain threshold..
"A subset of patients with thyroid hormone deficiency caused by Hashimoto's has a lowered pain threshold. The susceptible patient perceives as painful stimuli that aren't painful to other people. The pain results from too little thyroid hormone regulation of certain nerve cells. Some of the cells, mainly in her spinal cord, when under-regulated by thyroid hormone, release excess amounts of "substance P." The excess substance P then amplifies the transmission of "pain" impulses in the central nervous system."
>Any ideas if tyosine would produce IL1?
don't think so, although IL1 does seem to have a tyrosine related receptor.
>or if thyroid meds like synthetic T4 would make things worse...I am trialling adding in T4 to my Armour?
Found this abstract that says that interleukin 1 can inhibit the conversion of T4 to the more active T3, so if interleukin 1 is part of your problem adding T4 may not be of much benefit - selenium is important for the conversion, and also stops the production of reverse T3, which antagonizes T3...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7627812
>Sorry, I'm lost here,I get lost frequently, so just try to absorb stuff by osmosis! When I've seen things written a few times, it slowly starts to make sense!
Ray
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:10:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
> I get lost frequently, so just try to absorb stuff by osmosis! When I've seen things written a few times, it slowly starts to make sense!
>
> Ray
>
LOL, thanks Ray, I'll read your reply more fully tomorrow. ahhh.. I don't think I do the osmosis bit very well, grins(suspect ACTH/ADH is needed), so I'll just have to try another way.
I understand the thyroid hormone precursor bit re tyrosine, just can't understand why tyrosine kills the pain completely when I'm already taking sufficient thyroid hormones..not complaining though!
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:12:20
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:10:32
Posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 13:30:45
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:10:32
Hi Jan, perhaps it's the noradrenaline that tyrosine is helping synthesize, that is helping with your pain? More from Dr Lowe's website...
"Too little thyroid hormone regulation of other cells in the brain stem decreases the release in the spinal cord of a nerve transmitting substance called "noradrenaline." The decreased noradrenaline in turn reduces the amount of opiates (morphine-like chemicals) released into the spinal cord. These opiates normally reduce the number of sensory impulses that enter the spinal cord and brain stem. When too few of the opiates are released, more sensory impulses make their way into the spinal cord and brain stem. As a result, the patient's perception of pain is heightened.
The combination of high substance P and low noradrenaline (and hence low opiates) causes the patient to perceive pain in the absence of painful stimuli. For example, the patient might perceive as painful the mere movement of some joints. She might experience pain from the pressure on her underside when she is sits or lies on a well-padded surface. And her pain threshold might be so low that she experiences aches and pains despite no apparent stimulus such as movement or pressure."
Ray
Posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 14:54:31
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 24, 2004, at 22:17:37
Hi Kara,
It sounds like we have a thing or two in common. :) I'm 49, female, never married, no children, depressed for many years, have given up completely on antidepressants, just muddling along with supplements and currently not doing too good. Lethargy, lack of energy, lack of motivation and all the discouragement that brings are my primary problems. I'm unemployed and financially desperate.
I USED to be a nightowl, until just the last few years when I've suddenly become a morning person. That's been very weird, and I attribute it to hormonal changes and also probably increased cortisol always in my body. I read that in "The Cortisol Connection" btw. Talbott said that if we seem to need less sleep as we grow older that it's just that our cortisol is circulating in excess and out of its optimal daily rhythm. Wouldn't you know that there would be that big cloud around the "Hey, I'm now a morning person!" silver lining?? ;)
Sleep before midnight is supposed to be the most beneficial to regulate cortisol and when I've managed to do it, I could really feel that I was more rested in some different way. So "early to bed" is on my list of self-care items, as difficult as it still is sometimes.
What I need to do to get to sleep early is start turning down or off the lights about 8 PM (which means no computer), eliminate sugar from my diet altogether -- I'm convinced that sugar is the biggest insomnia-inducing substance there is, for me anyway, worse than caffeine ever was -- and get as much light in the morning as I can. I have a light visor too, that I've used to turn myself around when I really got out of whack in the past. This really works but light visors and boxes are pretty expensive.
Now that I'm running on I'm wondering if it was you or Simus who was talking about insomnia. Anyway, the other suggestion I have is to COMPLETELY eliminate light sources in the bedroom, such as from LED displays on clocks or light coming in from the sides of blinds. This, at least, is completely inexpensive and might be worth a try. I've also used melatonin in the old days, but just in very tiny doses than what's usually recommended on the bottles and then not all the time as melatonin sometimes increases depression. Exercise helps me to sleep too.
> There are a few other things I should mention that might make the waters even murkier. I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.
Last year, I made the big effort to eliminate yeast and took that NOW formula that you have as a matter of fact. Since then I've backslid in a major way, and I now think it was helping my depression and lethary more than I thought at the time since it was such a gradual improvement. I take probiotics too. Source Naturals brand, "Life Flora" is now my favorite.
I just ran across this recently and don't recall seeing pantithine and molybedenum recommended for candida before.
The Candida/Aldehyde detox pathway and the Molybdenum Connection, http://www.candidapage.com/aldehyde.shtml
"By upping body levels of a body enzyme, pantethine counteracts brain fog, certain allergic sensitivities, and some consequences of alcoholism. (And here it is --) ... In people with candidiasis, the enzyme fights off a toxic byproduct called acetaldehyde, which is thought to cause brain fog, often-suffered but rarely diagnosed...."
> My sense of humor is still intact. All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
Boy, I can relate to that! My sister seems to think that because my parents are helping me with my bills that this means I feel as if I don't "have to get a job". In truth I feel utter shame and semi-hysterical most of the time just thinking about how much they've helped me financially. (And grateful too, of course.) As you've expressed, I usually feel just completely desperate to be more functional. It's just hell not to be able to WILL yourself to get things done. I think it's like depression for normal people, they've been "depressed" at some time in their life so they think they know what "depression" is. Most people have experienced some resistance or procrastination to getting some things done, which they then overcome, so they don't understand what it's like to NOT be able to overcome it. I don't understand it myself actually, but more than that, I don't understand why anyone would think that I'd choose to live like this when it's so obviously horrible.
I've ordered from Beyond A Century, btw, after I saw it mentioned on this board in the past. I've placed 3 orders with them and feel quite confident in them now.
JL
Posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 15:24:20
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:10:32
Hi Jan,
How are you doing these days? :)
I haven't been here in a while. When last we spoke, I think, I was excited about starting a job. It was only seasonal (tax preparation) so it's over now, and while the work itself went ok, the stress really did me in. I thought I was on a fairly even keel at the time with the supplements I was taking, but everything went haywire almost immediately, and especially after I had a viral respiratory infection for a few weeks. It seemed like my supplements weren't working the same at all, my hormones were such that I was having periods again after going without for so many months that I thought I was finally in menopause. I was having carb cravings all of a sudden and I went off my diet regimen more and more as I just couldn't seem to get a handle on things. That only made things worse, unfortunately, and I started regaining the weight I'd lost last year. Then I hurt my foot so I couldn't do my usual walking as exercise and I really went deeper into the doldrums and gained more weight. I'm just now coming out of the trough and trying to figure out what to do next.
One interesting thing, I think I told you that I've had some thyroid problems (by body temp and other symptoms) and this winter I didn't! I'm guessing it was the tyrosine. I think the magnesium helped too, though it took quite a few months. Magnesium is still the magic formula to keep me from feeling suicidal too, no matter how far down I otherwise go. That is an enormous blessing.
I'm pretty bummed otherwise that I could go so completely off course in such a short period of time. I still feel better on my worst days than I ever felt on drugs, but it feels pretty daunting to have to keep on experimenting and tweaking these things. I'm also now convinced that it's not just the supplements but the diet changes AND the supplements working together that make the biggest difference....it all is just so much work.
Waaah, I want to be normal! ;)
JL
Posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 15:33:14
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:15:08
Hi Larry,
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the test?
> One simple test of adrenal stress is to try some licorice. Do not use DGL, though. That is De-Glycyrrhizinated Licorice.
What would be the "something" that would be noticeable when taking licorice that would indicate the adrenal stress?
Good to see you are still here, btw. :) I've been away for quite a few months myself, but now I'm thinking that I need to check in here as much as I need to do other things as it helps me to keep thinking in terms of solutions and to be motivated.
JL
Posted by raybakes on September 25, 2004, at 7:47:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 8:10:32
Hi Jan, hope I'm not overwhelming you with too much info or repeating stuff you already know, but I'm quite excited because a lot of it applies to my own autoimmune problems too.
Found this interesting...
"Three months of supplementation with 200mcg selenium daily reduced thyroid peroxidase antibodies (TPOAb) but had no effect on Tg antibodies (TgAb) in a well-controlled study of 70 women with autoimmune thyroiditis..."
Another article mentioned that thyroid peroxidase antibodies interfere with the muscles too, so that they can't relax - eye muscle fatigue seems to be a common symptom.
I was wondering if as selenium reduces TPO antibodies, whether tyrosine might reduce antibodies to thyroglobulin - just a thought but couldn't find any references to it! Although this page helped me understand the functions of TG and TPO....
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/thyroid/synthesis.html
also concerns about soy and thyroid peroxidase..
"Sheehan also expresses concern about the effects soy may have on the function of the thyroid gland. Animal study results, some of which date back to 1959, link soy isoflavones to possible thyroid disorders, such as goiter. A 1997 study in Biochemical Pharmacology identified genistein and daidzein as inhibitors of thyroid peroxidase, which data suggest may prompt goiter and autoimmune disorders of the thyroid. Critics of these studies suggest that iodine deficiency may be a factor that needs to be considered when evaluating study results."
and breast implants too!
"We have found [thyroglobulin and thyroid peroxidase antibodies]
present in the sera of 24% of patients with silicone gel breast implants"
Posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
"Found this abstract that says that interleukin 1 can inhibit the conversion of T4 to the more active T3, so if interleukin 1 is part of your problem adding T4 may not be of much benefit - selenium is important for the conversion, and also stops the production of reverse T3, which antagonizes T3..."
Hmmm, now that got me asking myself a question or two!I used to take lots of supplements and herbs etc, but smoked VERY heavily, but have no been tobacco free for over 18 months and decided to try a few supplements without the handicap of destroying them with cigarette smoke.
No great method to my approach, I just had a look at what I had lying around still (I hate chucking expensive supps away) and decided to start taking a few things.
My regimen is this (and has been now for 2 weeks ish). At night before bed and all at once, selenium 200mcg, zinc 15mg, B6 100mg, ginkgo biloba 120mg and lithium orotate 120mg....in the morning I've been taking 500mg n acetyl cysteine.
I've actually been feeling a little more motivated, but extremely tired and very emotional and "wired" its making me question if anything i'm taking may be the cause. Also feeling very "disconnected" at the moment too and extremely short tempered and irritable.
The reason I ask on this thread, is Jan thinks I may well have quite a few symptoms of hypothyroidism and having recently started the selenium I wondered if it might be aggravating my symptoms? If anyone has any thoughts on anything else I'm taking and how it may be affecting me, I'd be interested to hear their views too.
Many thanks
TJ
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:07:17
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 25, 2004, at 7:47:42
Ray,
I was wondering if you might have some insight into a condition that two different people have brought up to me recently. It relates to thyroid problems. Both people have high TSh levels and their doctors have told them that they are hypothyroid and yet their symptoms are more like those of people who are hyperthyroid. One of these people is Simus who has posted on this thread quite a bit and has gone into more detail on her situation in those posts. The other is my neighbor. She had been taking Armour Thyroid but discontinued it a few months ago. She feels great. She has lots of energy, her concentration is fine and she is always hot when I'm cold. If anything she acts hyper, not hypo. She got a TSH and some other tests recently and her level was 21. As opposed to Simus, she tested positive for Hashimotos. Why isn't she feeling awful with a TSH level that high? She and Simus are both wondering if their problem might have more to do with their pituitary (although I don't see how that could be given the thyroid antibodies in my neighbor's case). Do you have any insights here? If so, they'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:40:26
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » KaraS, posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 14:54:31
> Hi Kara,
>
> It sounds like we have a thing or two in common. :) I'm 49, female, never married, no children, depressed for many years, have given up completely on antidepressants, just muddling along with supplements and currently not doing too good. Lethargy, lack of energy, lack of motivation and all the discouragement that brings are my primary problems. I'm unemployed and financially desperate.
Hi JL,Thanks for sharing. Sounds like we have more than a thing or two in common (unfortunately for both of us)! It's so amazing to me that people are still reading all of the old posts in this long thread and bringing them back to life.
> I USED to be a nightowl, until just the last few years when I've suddenly become a morning person. That's been very weird, and I attribute it to hormonal changes and also probably increased cortisol always in my body. I read that in "The Cortisol Connection" btw. Talbott said that if we seem to need less sleep as we grow older that it's just that our cortisol is circulating in excess and out of its optimal daily rhythm. Wouldn't you know that there would be that big cloud around the "Hey, I'm now a morning person!" silver lining?? ;)I'm sure that my cortisol is all out of whack too. Might as well be a morning person with screwed up cortisol than a night owl with same problem, eh?
>
> Sleep before midnight is supposed to be the most beneficial to regulate cortisol and when I've managed to do it, I could really feel that I was more rested in some different way. So "early to bed" is on my list of self-care items, as difficult as it still is sometimes.I know you're right on this one. I just have to manage to discipline myself more and get on that earlier schedule. It's just too critical at this point.
> What I need to do to get to sleep early is start turning down or off the lights about 8 PM (which means no computer), eliminate sugar from my diet altogether -- I'm convinced that sugar is the biggest insomnia-inducing substance there is, for me anyway, worse than caffeine ever was -- and get as much light in the morning as I can. I have a light visor too, that I've used to turn myself around when I really got out of whack in the past. This really works but light visors and boxes are pretty expensive.Yes, sugar is very stimulating for me also and gives me hypoglycemia as well as contributing to restless leg syndrome. I do have a light box though I haven't been using it much. I have managed for a few days in a row, when I had some temporary work, to use the light box, go to bed earlier and take some melatonin at bedtime. This did help a lot. It's maintaining that schedule that is the really hard part because my natural instinct is to go to be later and later and later on each progressive night.
> Now that I'm running on I'm wondering if it was you or Simus who was talking about insomnia. Anyway, the other suggestion I have is to COMPLETELY eliminate light sources in the bedroom, such as from LED displays on clocks or light coming in from the sides of blinds. This, at least, is completely inexpensive and might be worth a try. I've also used melatonin in the old days, but just in very tiny doses than what's usually recommended on the bottles and then not all the time as melatonin sometimes increases depression. Exercise helps me to sleep too.Actually, in this thread I think it was probably Simus. I have insomnia problems off and on. I seem to either be sleeping too much or I can't sleep at all (when there's too much stress or RLS sysmptoms) So insomnia advice is welcomed by me as well. SB417 recently mentioned a lot of the same things you did. I really should try shutting off the computer and the TV by 8:00 PM. Of course I'd be cutting off two of my very few pleasures left but that's another story...
> > There are a few other things I should mention that might make the waters even murkier. I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.
>
> Last year, I made the big effort to eliminate yeast and took that NOW formula that you have as a matter of fact. Since then I've backslid in a major way, and I now think it was helping my depression and lethary more than I thought at the time since it was such a gradual improvement. I take probiotics too. Source Naturals brand, "Life Flora" is now my favorite.I haven't started my anti-Candida program yet. Too many plans and too little motivation. I think just about everyone these days could benefit from such a program given that almost all of us have taken antibiotics and almost all of us have eaten too much sugar. I haven't tried "Life Flora" but sometimes I take Enzymatic Therapy Pearls. They're great because they don't have to be refrigerated and so they're much more convenient. Also, they're protected from stomach acid and aren't released until they get to the intestines.
> I just ran across this recently and don't recall seeing pantithine and molybedenum recommended for candida before.
>
> The Candida/Aldehyde detox pathway and the Molybdenum Connection, http://www.candidapage.com/aldehyde.shtml
>
> "By upping body levels of a body enzyme, pantethine counteracts brain fog, certain allergic sensitivities, and some consequences of alcoholism. (And here it is --) ... In people with candidiasis, the enzyme fights off a toxic byproduct called acetaldehyde, which is thought to cause brain fog, often-suffered but rarely diagnosed...."I've never heard of pantethine before. Sounds like it's worth a try. I believe that I have a problem or shortage concerning some enzymes. It's just an early theory that I need to research more and try more experiments with. The reason I think this is that I have cholinergic urticaria. Larry mentioned that this is thought to be caused by incomplete protein metabolism. That might help explain my depression as well (if there isn't enough of the amino acids available in my body to make neurotransmitters) and it would explain why I have aboslutely no reaction to taking tyrosine supplementation - even in very large dosages.
I've recently had luck with taking extra magnesium. I swear I have much less brain fog the following day after the evening I've taken it. It seems so hard to believe that it could help so much. I'm still testing it but there's no doubt in my mind that it's helping.
> > My sense of humor is still intact. All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
>
> Boy, I can relate to that! My sister seems to think that because my parents are helping me with my bills that this means I feel as if I don't "have to get a job". In truth I feel utter shame and semi-hysterical most of the time just thinking about how much they've helped me financially. (And grateful too, of course.) As you've expressed, I usually feel just completely desperate to be more functional. It's just hell not to be able to WILL yourself to get things done. I think it's like depression for normal people, they've been "depressed" at some time in their life so they think they know what "depression" is. Most people have experienced some resistance or procrastination to getting some things done, which they then overcome, so they don't understand what it's like to NOT be able to overcome it. I don't understand it myself actually, but more than that, I don't understand why anyone would think that I'd choose to live like this when it's so obviously horrible.It's so hard to deal with the ignorance of the healthy world!! You want to make them experience it for just a little while so that they could understand. Did you read about the idea Simus and I had for forced understanding treatment? That's a good point about the definition of depression. It's so overused in our society to mean a little bit sad or under-the-weather. That is nothing like serious clinical depression. They just don't have a clue about the difference. It's just maddening! You said something so similar to Simus when she wrote: "As if anyone would choose to live like this!"
> I've ordered from Beyond A Century, btw, after I saw it mentioned on this board in the past. I've placed 3 orders with them and feel quite confident in them now.Yes, I trust them because Larry recommended them even though I haven't placed any orders with them yet. How long does it take to get your order? Do you live in the States or Canada?
-K
Posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 20:13:19
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:07:17
I believe that both of these people have normal T4 and T3 levels as well.
Posted by JLx on September 25, 2004, at 20:57:07
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » JLx, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:40:26
> It's so amazing to me that people are still reading all of the old posts in this long thread and bringing them back to life.
Seems like some of the best info is in the long threads, not to mention that you and Simus were pretty funny. :)
> I'm sure that my cortisol is all out of whack too. Might as well be a morning person with screwed up cortisol than a night owl with same problem, eh?Well, if you have a day job anyway! In "The Cortisol Connection" Talbott described the normal rise and fall cycle throughout day and how we screw it up by our tendency to have a lot of activity and stress in our evening hours. I recall him saying that he took theanine himself at a certain time each day to try to counteract that. I'd like to try that some day.
Have you ever taken anything specifically for hormone changes? I took a herbal women's formula for years and it was helpful, probably because of the DHEA. Last year I tried both pregnenolone and progesterone. The progesterone was very disappointing after I had read such good things about it. Aside from one tantalizing day of feeling like I had a lot of zip and spring in my step, it was awful.
> I know you're right on this one. I just have to manage to discipline myself more and get on that earlier schedule. It's just too critical at this point.
Well, one reason why I was saying it is that I needed to hear it! Here I am on the computer at nearly 10 PM.
> Yes, sugar is very stimulating for me also and gives me hypoglycemia as well as contributing to restless leg syndrome.
By that do you mean vague little jumpiness feelings in your legs? When I get those, I usually try magnesium and if that doesn't work, I add a little calcium, and if they don't work, I add a little potassium. Some version usually does the trick.
>I do have a light box though I haven't been using it much.
I saw your post elswhere about that after I posted. I was surprised to see that you didn't find much value in the Sunrizer....I've always wanted one of those because I thought it sounded very body-friendly to be woken up gradually with light.
Have you ever seen this site http://www.cet.org/default.htm?AutoMEQ.htm~main and it's Morningness - Eveningness Questionnaire? Before I read that, I was thinking that I was using my light visor early enough in the AM but now I think not.
>This did help a lot. It's maintaining that schedule that is the really hard part because my natural instinct is to go to be later and later and later on each progressive night.
Oh, I know what you mean. I still do that too. The only difference now is that it doesn't seem so bad if I have to get up in the morning because I only sleep 6 hours instead of 8.
> I really should try shutting off the computer and the TV by 8:00 PM. Of course I'd be cutting off two of my very few pleasures left but that's another story...
I'm not sure the TV counts so much as long as you watch it in a darkened room, unless you have one of those monster TVs maybe. What I notice when I get in the habit of getting to bed early, or when I use my light visor in the morning early enough, is that when about 10 PM rolls around, I start feeling just desperate to sleep. That's really pretty cool then to just fall asleep right away after a near lifetime of insomnia.
> I haven't started my anti-Candida program yet. Too many plans and too little motivation.Yeah, I hear ya. I could just kick myself for getting on the sugar and carb bandwagon again after having done so much of the anti-Candida effort last fall.
> I've never heard of pantethine before. Sounds like it's worth a try.
Me neither. I think I'm going to get some as it sounds like it might neutralize some of the ill effects of the yeast, even without the anti-Candida measures.
> The reason I think this is that I have cholinergic urticaria. Larry mentioned that this is thought to be caused by incomplete protein metabolism. That might help explain my depression as well (if there isn't enough of the amino acids available in my body to make neurotransmitters) and it would explain why I have aboslutely no reaction to taking tyrosine supplementation - even in very large dosages.
I noticed that on the other thread. Have you tried the...bromelain, was it?
> I've recently had luck with taking extra magnesium. I swear I have much less brain fog the following day after the evening I've taken it. It seems so hard to believe that it could help so much. I'm still testing it but there's no doubt in my mind that it's helping.
Magnesium is great stuff. No matter how crappy I feel, or how slipshod I am not taking helpful supplements or watching my diet, I've found that if I at least still take magnesium, then I don't get the extreme "hate myself" blues and suicidal ideation/feelings that always before characterized "the pit" of depression for me. That's a big deal as I used to not only feel suicidal but also beat myself up for it...in that inimitable depressive style. ;)
I started taking magnesium after I ran across George Eby's site about it. I know you're familiar, most people here are by now I think, but here's the link anyway for lurkers: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html I found that linked on a British psychiatric journal's site, and when I asked my psychiatrist about whether he thought magnesium might help me, he responded negatively. Fortunately, I didn't listen to him!
> It's so hard to deal with the ignorance of the healthy world!! You want to make them experience it for just a little while so that they could understand. Did you read about the idea Simus and I had for forced understanding treatment?Yes, I enjoyed many of your comments. :)
> It's just maddening! You said something so similar to Simus when she wrote: "As if anyone would choose to live like this!"
That's the wonderfulness of coming here, people understand.
> Yes, I trust them because Larry recommended them even though I haven't placed any orders with them yet. How long does it take to get your order? Do you live in the States or Canada?
I live not too far from Simus, depending on what she considers "central" Michigan. I am a bit northwest of Grand Rapids. I don't recall specifically how long it took for my BAC orders, but I'm sure it was something reasonable like a week.
JL
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 1:23:19
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
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