![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 76 to 100 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by Simus on August 10, 2004, at 0:23:09
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 9, 2004, at 19:34:05
> What do you think magnesium has done for you? And what are the better forms?
This goes back a few years, so I have to stretch my memory a little... I bought one of Maureen Solomon's books on natural healing, and almost everything that I had a problem with she recommended magnesium for. I had NEVER taken a magnesium supplement up to that point, and I was probably in my late 30's at the time. So you have to consider that there may have been a serious magnesium deficiency in my body. I had allergies to the point of weekly shots, two inhalents and a nasal spray and over-the-counter pills. My lungs wheezed when I breathed. I had chronic bronchitis and sinus infections. All of that turned around when I started taking magnesium. The first day I noticed that my lungs were clearer and it was easier to breathe. Soon I was off of all meds, and I no longer went in for the shots. Last winter when I was so sick from the psychiatric meds, I got real lax on the supplements. Then in the spring, the allergies returned for the first time in years. I am back on magnesium now (with vit C and quercetin) and off of the allergy meds. I'm thinking there were noticable mental benefits too, for instance with anxiety. It has been so long ago and I have been through so much since then with the drugs - I am so sorry that I just don't remember. That didn't stand out as much as the other results though. As far as the best form of magnesium... There are several forms, and I don't know why and what is best for what. I have a magnesium chelate that seems to work well, but then others may too...
> >> > As for Larry, I was doing some research today on the net and found a discussion group that Larry was involved in. My first reaction was that he was cheating on us. How silly is that???? The post was from a couple of years ago in a forum that wasn't censored at all. For some reason a couple of the people were really attacking Larry and saying such horrible things to him. I can see why a moderator is needed on these boards.
> >
> > Why in the world people would attack those trying to help them is beyond me...
>
> I think it was a case of too many roosters in the hen house. These two guys who were attacking him thought that they were the experts on everything and seemed to resent Larry. I could be wrong as I didn't read all of the previous posts that led up the angry words. That was just my impression from what I had seen.
>
Their loss is our gain.
> >
> > > Licorice is one of the first new things I'm planning on trying.
> >
> > I read your post yesterday (?) on licorice. I think I should just go for it. I have actually had a bottle of it for a couple of years. These things actually do expire before I get the courage to try them. LOL
>
> Do you ever try a tiny bit at a time and then keep increasing the dosage? I bought one of those pill cutters at the drugstore and it has been a huge help.I think the licorice I have is in a gelatin capsule and can't be broken or cut. I believe I bought it originally to raise my low blood pressure, but then I went on a med that raised my blood pressure as a side effect so I just set the licorice aside. There is a story behind every supplement I own, and I have a whole cupboard full of them. I wish I had a whole brain full of memories as to why I bought them in the first place... But I shouldn't complain. My memory has improved greatly and is still improving. (I had a real hard time with memory loss on Lexapro.) Oh, wasn't it you that I told my "Flowers for Algernon" story to? That seems so long ago now...
> >
> > > > > I did try Wellbutrin once (both capsule and pill form) and felt like I couldn't breathe on it. It was a strange reaction. I've tried lots of things but never had that feeling before. I may try it again. I was very bummed when I had to give it up because I felt that it had the potential to really help me.
> > > >
> > > > It sure isn't for everybody. As a matter of fact, most people on this site seem to use Wellbutrin as a supplemental med with an SSRI. I think that I managed to get over the initial side effects fairly easily because the Lexapro had me SOOOOO down and it "softened the blow" of the anxiety of the Wellbutrin.
>
> So at least the Lexapro had it's value. I think I told you that I tried Celexa and had a horrible experience on it. Yuuuucccckkkkkk. Kind of like the Perika only with irregular heartbeats added on. Just horrible.I hear ya.
> > > I could deal with the anxiety of it since I have so little of that now. It's the feeling that it was an effort to breathe that got to me. Call me crazy, but it's something I like to do without effort.
> >
> > LOL I was assuming that was associated with the anxiety. That was how I used to feel during anxiety/panic attacks. I would "forget" to breath (find myself holding my breath). I didn't realize it until I started to get dizzy, and then I would say, "breathe in...breathe out..."
>
> Panic attacks are the worst. So glad I haven't had any of those in ages. I was worried that hotflashes might cause them because sensations going on in the body that you don't feel you have control over are the starting point for panic attacks. So far that hasn't happened but that's probably because my adrenals couldn't muster that kind of response now anyway.Oh, another side effect of Lexapro... Hormones all over the map... I thought it was making me menopausal at 43. My periods are just now straightening out, and I have been off of it for 7 months.
How are you doing after stopping the Perika?
> > > Actually, one thing that didn't put me to sleep was the selegiline. I only took 5 mg. but it definitely felt stimulating. The other thing that felt slightly stimulating was the DLPA. They're supposed to be a good antidepressant when combined. I didn't want to try that now because of job hunting (the metabolites of the selegiline are amphetamines so I'd fail work related drug tests) but I'll never get a job if I don't get some antidepressant effect going. Selegiline is used by lots of health-conscious people as a life enhancement supplement because of its neuroprotective effect. I figure that if I have to take a drug test, I'll just tell them upfront that I take it. Of course it probably won't work for me either in which case it will be a moot point.
> >
> > First and foremost, you have to get well. If you do come to a point that you need a drug screening for a new job, I would think that being upfront with them and telling them that you are taking herbal supplements that may or may not cause you to test positive on a drug screening would be the best way to handle it. But you have to keep looking for help...
> > >
>
> That's how I feel about it too now. The only problem is that selegiline is a drug, not an herbal supplement. I just read on the main board that if you tell the drug testers that you're taking it, then you have to produce a prescription and then they will do another test to differentiate the selegiline from street amphetamines. I will have to find a doctor willing to prescribe it.Ohhhhhh... That was a name I had never heard of and I just assumed it was herbal.
> > > The selegiline is probably not good for the adrenal problems but it's like you with the Wellbutrin, you just can't afford to not take it now. That's one area I wish that the book had gone into more. I wish it listed medications to stay away from. Wish I could e-mail the author. Maybe I can find somethings out on the net.
> >
> > I bet a persistent person could find the author and get an answer...
>
> I think I'm going to try it anyway. You're still getting well even though you are taking the Wellbutrin. It's only a very small amount of selegiline and I'd take it with DLPA (theoretically 40% of the DLPA should convert to tyrosine which is great to take for the adrenals) so I think it's well worth the slight risk.
>
> > > Oh, where is that selfish Larry when you need him? (LOL)
>
> > Sipping martinis in front of the fireplace (it's chilly in the Alps).
>
> Then why were you all spending so much time in the hottub?Did he tell you EVERYTHING???
> > > I'm really in feel sorry for myself mood now. I'm so tired of hearing about all of these things that work so well for other people and they do nothing for me or I can't tolerate them. Oh well, on to the next trial...
> >
> > You just have to keep fighting!!! I was where you are now such a short time ago and I saw NO hope. But here I am now! Not 100%, but at least I am in the land of the living.
>
> How long ago did you start on Wellbutrin? Did the antidpressant effect hit you fairly quickly or did you have to wait the usual 4 weeks?I started it in February, I believe. My doctor took me off of 30mg Lexapro and put me on 150mg Wellbutrin (standard dose is 300mg) on the same day. No decrease in the Lex at all, just cold turkey. The first day I felt GREAT!!! (Remember that "great" is relative to how I felt the day before.) It was the first time in months that I felt functional. But I only slept 2 hours the first night - in two one-hour shifts. I think I got 3 hours of sleep the second night. I was going a little nuts from lack of sleep, but I was "alive" again! Within a few days I was sleeping 7-8 hours a night. It was broken up into 3 segments at first, then two, then the occasional 7-8 hours straight. The sleep thing is still an obstacle, but it is sooooo good to "feel" something other than numbness again. (By the way, this is the med change that sent my adrenals into exhaustion mode.)
>
> > Don't you dare give up,
> >
> > Simus
>
> Thanks for the pep talk. Fortunately (or should I say serendipitously?) I read some posts on the main board yesterday about selegiline and how it has worked for those that nothing else seems to work for. Someone named Ktemene answered another post of mine and she just happened to include a lot of really uplifting links for me to check out. It was just what I needed. So I have a strong feeling that this is what I'm supposed to try now. Also, knowing that I can tolerate it after these last few trials, is another huge plus that is keeping me hopeful. And if this doesn't work out, it's on to Parnate. I'd also have to see a doctor for that one but hopefully it would be worth it.Can't lose hope, or all will be lost...
>
> Thanks again,
> K
>
> P.S. I laughed so much last night at the "WELCOME PSYCHOS" and the "talking biomedical talk until dawn" with Larry and his better half. I'd keep thinking of it and then crack up all over again. My two cats were staring at me. They were convinced that this time I'd finally gone over that proverbial edge."WELCOME BABBLERS" just wouldn't pack the same punch... Humor is what kept me sane (?) over the years. By the way, you wrote a lot of things that even though I didn't respond, I got a good chuckle out of. Like, "Why some of us just can't see what's right there in front of us is beyond me...". Priceless!!!
Here's hoping that we make it until Larry returns...
Simus
Posted by Simus on August 10, 2004, at 0:34:16
In reply to Re: another funny one » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 9, 2004, at 19:37:42
> > > > > If you liked the Cletus posting, here's another funny one:
> > > > >
> > > > > In reply to Re: Bluebonnet supplement » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 9:40:44
> > > > >
> > > > > I had a blood titer test come back with high levels of mercury. I found that by eating half a tube of Tom's natural toothpaste every day for six months I was able to lower my concentrations by 18.352 percent. Also I found scuba diving at a depth of 65 feet or deeper seemed to accelerate the process. Especially if I smoked a little catnip before each dive. I think the compression of the water and the increased oxygen exchange at the blood-brain barrier enhanced covalent heavy metal bonding with the platelets concentrating the detoxification. On the days when I did that however I had to consume a whole tube.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Wow! Larry did need a vacation! Almost makes me sorry I dropped in on his little getaway. (Sorry I didn't tell you sooner. I knew how jealous you would have gotten that I had Larry (well, yes, and his significant other) all to myself to talk biomedical talk until dawn. (Sunrises in the Alps are sooooo beautiful!) So now you know...
> > > >
> > > > Simus
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why you traitor!!! And I thought you were a friend. I should have known you were up to something like this. Of course I'm jealous. Who could resist the idea of spending a vacation in the Swiss Alps discussing "biomedical talk until dawn" with a couple you've just barged in on? You really do know how to live. I have to give you that.
> > >
> > > Actually, Larry didn't write the posting above. I cut off part of the top of it. It was written by some name I'd never seen here before in response to Ame Sans Vie who answered a posting by Larry. So not to worry, he's not losing it... at least he wasn't before you ruined his vacation in the Swiss Alps!
> >
> > Hmmm... I thought the reason Larry was turning blue and shaking was because of the cold. Do you think it could have been because he was angry with me???
> >
> >
>
> I can see that nothing escapes you - but maybe when he swore at you and threw his drink at you, you might have picked up on it earlier...
>
Yes, but in all fairness he first muttered something like, "I wanted it shaken, not stirred!", in his British accent of course, before he flung the martini glass. After all, he is Hoover...Larry Hoover! I just figured he was tempermental so I didn't take it personally.
Posted by KaraS on August 10, 2004, at 9:55:31
In reply to Re: another funny one » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 10, 2004, at 0:34:16
> > > > > > If you liked the Cletus posting, here's another funny one:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In reply to Re: Bluebonnet supplement » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 9:40:44
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had a blood titer test come back with high levels of mercury. I found that by eating half a tube of Tom's natural toothpaste every day for six months I was able to lower my concentrations by 18.352 percent. Also I found scuba diving at a depth of 65 feet or deeper seemed to accelerate the process. Especially if I smoked a little catnip before each dive. I think the compression of the water and the increased oxygen exchange at the blood-brain barrier enhanced covalent heavy metal bonding with the platelets concentrating the detoxification. On the days when I did that however I had to consume a whole tube.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Wow! Larry did need a vacation! Almost makes me sorry I dropped in on his little getaway. (Sorry I didn't tell you sooner. I knew how jealous you would have gotten that I had Larry (well, yes, and his significant other) all to myself to talk biomedical talk until dawn. (Sunrises in the Alps are sooooo beautiful!) So now you know...
> > > > >
> > > > > Simus
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why you traitor!!! And I thought you were a friend. I should have known you were up to something like this. Of course I'm jealous. Who could resist the idea of spending a vacation in the Swiss Alps discussing "biomedical talk until dawn" with a couple you've just barged in on? You really do know how to live. I have to give you that.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, Larry didn't write the posting above. I cut off part of the top of it. It was written by some name I'd never seen here before in response to Ame Sans Vie who answered a posting by Larry. So not to worry, he's not losing it... at least he wasn't before you ruined his vacation in the Swiss Alps!
> > >
> > > Hmmm... I thought the reason Larry was turning blue and shaking was because of the cold. Do you think it could have been because he was angry with me???
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I can see that nothing escapes you - but maybe when he swore at you and threw his drink at you, you might have picked up on it earlier...
> >
> Yes, but in all fairness he first muttered something like, "I wanted it shaken, not stirred!", in his British accent of course, before he flung the martini glass. After all, he is Hoover...Larry Hoover! I just figured he was tempermental so I didn't take it personally.
>I can definitely see how you could have missed that signal then! (LOL) (Unbelievable that we're still milking this one.) Wonder if Larry has read any or all of these...
I'm working today and the next couple of days so I'll get back to you when I can on the previous message.
Posted by robot on August 10, 2004, at 21:41:18
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 18, 2004, at 16:21:41
I would like to know your opinions about phenylalanine. My doctor said its not good to take, and Ive read that it promotes nerve cell death (and some say cancer, but that actually worries me less).
I have taken the supplements before, without much result. ONe time, however, I took 500 mg (without having taken it for quite awhile) and I had a weird anxiety that lasted through the next day. I felt very irritable and confused.
Since then I have tried Spirulina powder. It seemed to stimulate me a little, but I discovered that it makes me even more mentally fuzzy than normal. Could this be the phenylalanine content? If not, what could it be? (Ive been on Lexapro 20 mg during this time.)
I would like to try phenyl again sometime but I want to know Im not risking something that could make my problems worse.
thanks guys
Posted by KaraS on August 10, 2004, at 23:51:11
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? Phenylalanine, posted by robot on August 10, 2004, at 21:41:18
> I would like to know your opinions about phenylalanine. My doctor said its not good to take, and Ive read that it promotes nerve cell death (and some say cancer, but that actually worries me less).
> I have taken the supplements before, without much result. ONe time, however, I took 500 mg (without having taken it for quite awhile) and I had a weird anxiety that lasted through the next day. I felt very irritable and confused.
> Since then I have tried Spirulina powder. It seemed to stimulate me a little, but I discovered that it makes me even more mentally fuzzy than normal. Could this be the phenylalanine content? If not, what could it be? (Ive been on Lexapro 20 mg during this time.)
> I would like to try phenyl again sometime but I want to know Im not risking something that could make my problems worse.
> thanks guys
I have never heard any of that about phenylalanine. I'd be interested in seeing some articles backing up those claims. I'm planning on taking it myself (the DLPA version along with a small amount of selegiline) soon. It's just an amino acid, a component of the protein we eat every day. A lot of the natural health gurus recommend it for depression including Dr. Andrew Weill, Dr. Michael Murray, ND and Dr. Priscilla Slagle.http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.php?command=TodayQA&pt=Question&questionId=3499
(Within this article linked below on Parkinsons Dr. Murray mentions phenylalanine to help with mood.)
http://www.doctormurray.com/Qarchive/parkinsons.htm
You can also read about it on Dr. Slagle's website.
The wired feeling you got when you tried it may have been from the PEA (phenylethylamine). l-phenylalanine metabolizes into l-tyrosine and PEA. PEA is very stimulating. You could take d-phenylalanine to prevent that wired feeling or you could just take l-tyrosine. These amino acids don't work for everyone so I can't guarantee anything. I didn't have any success with l-tyrosine myself and I haven't tried phenylalanine at a high enough dosage yet to judge it. I personally feel that they're very safe though.
I don't know anything about the actual content of Spirulina so I couldn't comment on that.
Posted by KaraS on August 11, 2004, at 0:31:41
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 10, 2004, at 0:23:09
> > What do you think magnesium has done for you? And what are the better forms?
>
> This goes back a few years, so I have to stretch my memory a little... I bought one of Maureen Solomon's books on natural healing, and almost everything that I had a problem with she recommended magnesium for. I had NEVER taken a magnesium supplement up to that point, and I was probably in my late 30's at the time. So you have to consider that there may have been a serious magnesium deficiency in my body. I had allergies to the point of weekly shots, two inhalents and a nasal spray and over-the-counter pills. My lungs wheezed when I breathed. I had chronic bronchitis and sinus infections. All of that turned around when I started taking magnesium. The first day I noticed that my lungs were clearer and it was easier to breathe. Soon I was off of all meds, and I no longer went in for the shots. Last winter when I was so sick from the psychiatric meds, I got real lax on the supplements. Then in the spring, the allergies returned for the first time in years. I am back on magnesium now (with vit C and quercetin) and off of the allergy meds. I'm thinking there were noticable mental benefits too, for instance with anxiety. It has been so long ago and I have been through so much since then with the drugs - I am so sorry that I just don't remember. That didn't stand out as much as the other results though. As far as the best form of magnesium... There are several forms, and I don't know why and what is best for what. I have a magnesium chelate that seems to work well, but then others may too...
>WOW, I can see why you think so highly of magnesium. As you said above, you must have had a serious deficiency. MSM is supposed to be good for allergies too I think. I don't take enough of it though.
>
> I think the licorice I have is in a gelatin capsule and can't be broken or cut. I believe I bought it originally to raise my low blood pressure, but then I went on a med that raised my blood pressure as a side effect so I just set the licorice aside. There is a story behind every supplement I own, and I have a whole cupboard full of them. I wish I had a whole brain full of memories as to why I bought them in the first place... But I shouldn't complain. My memory has improved greatly and is still improving. (I had a real hard time with memory loss on Lexapro.) Oh, wasn't it you that I told my "Flowers for Algernon" story to? That seems so long ago now...I also have a cupboard full of different supplements. Maybe I'll go into business and sell them off someday.
It was me that you told your "Flowers of Algernon" story to. That does seem like a long time ago - before we became partners in crime.
> Oh, another side effect of Lexapro... Hormones all over the map... I thought it was making me menopausal at 43. My periods are just now straightening out, and I have been off of it for 7 months.
That's horrible. I've never heard of anyone having such a terrible time on any antidepressant. Lucky you, eh? Do you think your adrenal problems surfaced because of the drug or because your doctor took you off of it immediately without slowly tapering you?
> How are you doing after stopping the Perika?
I'm feeling better but still a bit headachey and out of it. I also tried to decrease on the Effexor the other night which ended up giving me some surprising symptoms. Combine these two things with the fact that I had to get up this morning around the time that I usually go to bed and you have one very un-sharp employee (to say the least). I felt so slow and dumb today. It's so frustrating when you try to make the machinery do something it's not willing or able to do. As soon as I get this depression under control, I'm going to get my energy and my mind back. (Remind me to tell you about two good books on this subject and an interesting web site to check out.)
> Ohhhhhh... That was a name I had never heard of and I just assumed it was herbal.
Selegiline does sound like it should be herbal, doesn't it? I almost forget that it isn't because it's a medicine that the holistic community really embraces (and they embrace so few of them).
> > > > Oh, where is that selfish Larry when you need him? (LOL)
> >
> > > Sipping martinis in front of the fireplace (it's chilly in the Alps).
> >
> > Then why were you all spending so much time in the hottub?
>
> Did he tell you EVERYTHING???Yes he did including all about your menage a tois after the excitement of the all-night biomedical talk! Well at least I understand now why he's been giving you such preferential treatment.
>
> Can't lose hope, or all will be lost...Which really isn't all that much to lose in my case. Oh, I know, it's the depression talking.
> Here's hoping that we make it until Larry returns...
>> Simus
I'll drink to that!
-K
Posted by robot on August 11, 2004, at 21:08:12
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? Phenylalanine » robot, posted by KaraS on August 10, 2004, at 23:51:11
Thanks Kara. I just found this study, and here is the first paragraph of the Discussion section:
"Although no effect of tyrosine supplementation on neuropsychological test performance was found, the findings provide further evidence for a long term biochemical basis for the neuropsychological deficits associated with early treated phenylketonuria. Significant correlations between concurrent phenylalanine levels and task performance were obtained for several of the neuropsychological measures. Higher phenylalanine levels were associated with poorer performance on tests of verbal memory, response organisation, and reaction time under conditions of sustained vigilance. These results add to the solid body of findings indicating the neurotoxic effects of phenylalanine."
There are footnotes for that paragraph too. Here's the website:
http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/archdischild;78/2/116
Ive seen that word "neurotoxic" associated with it more than once.
Here's another part:
"What is not known in the present study or other recent investigations is the effect of dietary supplementation on brain levels of tyrosine. Of more importance than the plasma tyrosine level itself is the ratio of phenylalanine to tyrosine, since phenylalanine competes with tyrosine for carrier proteins at the blood-brain barrier. Although the dietary supplements increased the amount of tyrosine in plasma, they did not significantly alter the phenylalanine to tyrosine ratio, which was approximately 18:1 when subjects were ingesting tyrosine and 20:1 when they were not. Both of these ratios were well above the normal 1:1 ratio. "
Anyway, my idea was this: to try taking the spirulina again (it has great health benefits and lots of protein, cleanses digestive system) but taking it with Tyrosine supplements. Since Tyrosine and Phenylalanine compete with each other at the bloodbrainbarrier, this should limit the amount of phenyl Im getting in my brain. At least Ill try, and if the mental deficits happen again I might just have to give up trying.
I do have some L-phenylalanine (500 mg capsules)--I might try to take those again and see if they have the same effect.
It does sem odd that if it can have negative effects on mental tasks why it would be used to treat ADD sufferers.thanks again
Posted by KaraS on August 11, 2004, at 22:21:37
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? Phenylalanine » KaraS, posted by robot on August 11, 2004, at 21:08:12
> Thanks Kara. I just found this study, and here is the first paragraph of the Discussion section:
>
> "Although no effect of tyrosine supplementation on neuropsychological test performance was found, the findings provide further evidence for a long term biochemical basis for the neuropsychological deficits associated with early treated phenylketonuria. Significant correlations between concurrent phenylalanine levels and task performance were obtained for several of the neuropsychological measures. Higher phenylalanine levels were associated with poorer performance on tests of verbal memory, response organisation, and reaction time under conditions of sustained vigilance. These results add to the solid body of findings indicating the neurotoxic effects of phenylalanine."
>
> There are footnotes for that paragraph too. Here's the website:
>
> http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/archdischild;78/2/116
>
> Ive seen that word "neurotoxic" associated with it more than once.
>
> Here's another part:
>
> "What is not known in the present study or other recent investigations is the effect of dietary supplementation on brain levels of tyrosine. Of more importance than the plasma tyrosine level itself is the ratio of phenylalanine to tyrosine, since phenylalanine competes with tyrosine for carrier proteins at the blood-brain barrier. Although the dietary supplements increased the amount of tyrosine in plasma, they did not significantly alter the phenylalanine to tyrosine ratio, which was approximately 18:1 when subjects were ingesting tyrosine and 20:1 when they were not. Both of these ratios were well above the normal 1:1 ratio. "
>
> Anyway, my idea was this: to try taking the spirulina again (it has great health benefits and lots of protein, cleanses digestive system) but taking it with Tyrosine supplements. Since Tyrosine and Phenylalanine compete with each other at the bloodbrainbarrier, this should limit the amount of phenyl Im getting in my brain. At least Ill try, and if the mental deficits happen again I might just have to give up trying.
> I do have some L-phenylalanine (500 mg capsules)--I might try to take those again and see if they have the same effect.
> It does sem odd that if it can have negative effects on mental tasks why it would be used to treat ADD sufferers.
>
> thanks again
>
>Hi Robot,
I won't have a chance for a couple of days to really read this and investigate but my initial response to your first quoted paragraph was that it was talking about people who have the condition phenylketonuria. They can't process phenylalanine correctly so phenylalanine is toxic for them. But again, I'll have to read all of this over when I have more time and can give you a better answer.Take care.
Kara
Posted by Simus on August 12, 2004, at 2:09:50
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 11, 2004, at 0:31:41
> > Oh, another side effect of Lexapro... Hormones all over the map... I thought it was making me menopausal at 43. My periods are just now straightening out, and I have been off of it for 7 months.
>
> That's horrible. I've never heard of anyone having such a terrible time on any antidepressant.The hormonal upset seems to be fairly common on Lexapro. Kinda strange, huh?
> Do you think your adrenal problems surfaced because of the drug or because your doctor took you off of it immediately without slowly tapering you?
I had been so sick from the drug changes for about 4 months that I spent a lot of time sleeping or at least in bed. So I went from vegetable to "ZING" overnight on the Wellbutrin, and I just think my body wasn't ready for it.
> > How are you doing after stopping the Perika?
>
> I'm feeling better but still a bit headachey and out of it. I also tried to decrease on the Effexor the other night which ended up giving me some surprising symptoms.I was on Effexor but went straight to Lexapro so I didn't have the full withdrawal symptoms. I
understand that people get... what do they call them... like electrical shocks in the brain... Sorry I can't remember the term.> Combine these two things with the fact that I had to get up this morning around the time that I usually go to bed and you have one very un-sharp employee (to say the least). I felt so slow and dumb today. It's so frustrating when you try to make the machinery do something it's not willing or able to do. As soon as I get this depression under control, I'm going to get my energy and my mind back. (Remind me to tell you about two good books on this subject and an interesting web site to check out.)
It is so hard to do the drug adjustment thing while working...
> > Can't lose hope, or all will be lost...
>
> Which really isn't all that much to lose in my case. Oh, I know, it's the depression talking.Yes, it is the depression talking. A brighter day will come, and you will be so grateful that you hung on during the dark times.
Take care,
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 16:21:13
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 12, 2004, at 2:09:50
> The hormonal upset seems to be fairly common on Lexapro. Kinda strange, huh?
Yes, very strange. I had never heard of that before. Did your doctor warn you about it? They should take that stuff off of the market if you ask me (but who's asking me).
> > Do you think your adrenal problems surfaced because of the drug or because your doctor took you off of it immediately without slowly tapering you?
> I had been so sick from the drug changes for about 4 months that I spent a lot of time sleeping or at least in bed. So I went from vegetable to "ZING" overnight on the Wellbutrin, and I just think my body wasn't ready for it.I can imagine your body wouldn't be ready for that - especially since your adrenal hormones were probably already screwed up from the Lexapro.
> >
> I was on Effexor but went straight to Lexapro so I didn't have the full withdrawal symptoms. I
> understand that people get... what do they call them... like electrical shocks in the brain... Sorry I can't remember the term.I believe the highly "technical" term you are looking for is "brain zaps". Whoever coined that did a good job.
The main book that I wanted to mention to you that's look really good for reclaiming your mental abilities is "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD. Hope I've spelled it correctly. Don't be put off by his look. He converted to the Sikh religion and grew his hair and beard out and wears a turban etc. He is a well respected doctor in the holistic field though. I'm not sure it's in print anymore but you can get used copies or find it in some libraries. It's very comprehensive in terms of diet, meditation, exercises, supplements (lots of those). It does sound like you'd need to devote your entire life to it but I bet that if anything could bring our minds back, it's the advice in this book.
>
> It is so hard to do the drug adjustment thing while working...It sure is. You can't come to work and say "I'm sorry I'm not terribly productive today because I'm having brain zaps and other withdrawal symptoms from discontinuing my current antidepressant medication. If I could just hang on long enough to get through this, and not jump out the window before then, I'm certain I'll eventually become a model employee. Of course I'd have to find something else that works for me first and solves all of my mental and emotional problems but I'm sure that when that day comes, you'll be glad I'm on your staff."
> > > Can't lose hope, or all will be lost...
> Take care,
>
> Simus
Hopefully I didn't offend you with my last round of Larry on vacation jokes. You didn't carry the conversation any further so I wanted to make sure. (It's not like we haven't beaten that thing to death already though...) BTW, I LOVED your James Bond comparison. Too funny esp. the line about you thinking he was just being temperamental when he threw his drink at you. Anyway, I think he's back today so we'll have to find some other topic of amusement.Have a good weekend.
-K
Posted by Simus on August 13, 2004, at 16:46:46
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 16:21:13
> > The hormonal upset seems to be fairly common on Lexapro. Kinda strange, huh?
>
> Yes, very strange. I had never heard of that before. Did your doctor warn you about it? They should take that stuff off of the market if you ask me (but who's asking me).No, no warning from the Doc. Just comments from lots of women taking it on this site (who have never experienced this reaction from other SSRIs).
> > I was on Effexor but went straight to Lexapro so I didn't have the full withdrawal symptoms. I
> > understand that people get... what do they call them... like electrical shocks in the brain... Sorry I can't remember the term.
>
> I believe the highly "technical" term you are looking for is "brain zaps". Whoever coined that did a good job.Something that everyone who is profitting financially from this drug should experience at least once...
> The main book that I wanted to mention to you that's look really good for reclaiming your mental abilities is "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD. Hope I've spelled it correctly. Don't be put off by his look. He converted to the Sikh religion and grew his hair and beard out and wears a turban etc. He is a well respected doctor in the holistic field though. I'm not sure it's in print anymore but you can get used copies or find it in some libraries. It's very comprehensive in terms of diet, meditation, exercises, supplements (lots of those). It does sound like you'd need to devote your entire life to it but I bet that if anything could bring our minds back, it's the advice in this book.
I am about to go see a holistic doctor. I haven't made the appointment yet though. I will tell you how it goes...
> > It is so hard to do the drug adjustment thing while working...
>
> It sure is. You can't come to work and say "I'm sorry I'm not terribly productive today because I'm having brain zaps and other withdrawal symptoms from discontinuing my current antidepressant medication. If I could just hang on long enough to get through this, and not jump out the window before then, I'm certain I'll eventually become a model employee. Of course I'd have to find something else that works for me first and solves all of my mental and emotional problems but I'm sure that when that day comes, you'll be glad I'm on your staff."LOL Don't you just wish we could be that honest just once?
> Hopefully I didn't offend you with my last round of Larry on vacation jokes. You didn't carry the conversation any further so I wanted to make sure. (It's not like we haven't beaten that thing to death already though...) BTW, I LOVED your James Bond comparison. Too funny esp. the line about you thinking he was just being temperamental when he threw his drink at you. Anyway, I think he's back today so we'll have to find some other topic of amusement.No problem. Larry's coming back today??? You don't think he will read all those posts, do you? ***blush***
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 18:26:52
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 13, 2004, at 16:46:46
> > > The hormonal upset seems to be fairly common on Lexapro. Kinda strange, huh?
> >
> > Yes, very strange. I had never heard of that before. Did your doctor warn you about it? They should take that stuff off of the market if you ask me (but who's asking me).
>
> No, no warning from the Doc. Just comments from lots of women taking it on this site (who have never experienced this reaction from other SSRIs).
What would we all do without a site like this?
> > > I was on Effexor but went straight to Lexapro so I didn't have the full withdrawal symptoms. I
> > > understand that people get... what do they call them... like electrical shocks in the brain... Sorry I can't remember the term.
> >
> > I believe the highly "technical" term you are looking for is "brain zaps". Whoever coined that did a good job.
>
> Something that everyone who is profitting financially from this drug should experience at least once...
I'd like to give them some zaps in at least one other place as well.
> > The main book that I wanted to mention to you that's look really good for reclaiming your mental abilities is "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD. Hope I've spelled it correctly. Don't be put off by his look. He converted to the Sikh religion and grew his hair and beard out and wears a turban etc. He is a well respected doctor in the holistic field though. I'm not sure it's in print anymore but you can get used copies or find it in some libraries. It's very comprehensive in terms of diet, meditation, exercises, supplements (lots of those). It does sound like you'd need to devote your entire life to it but I bet that if anything could bring our minds back, it's the advice in this book.
>
> I am about to go see a holistic doctor. I haven't made the appointment yet though. I will tell you how it goes...
Thanks. I'd be very interested in how it goes. How did you find him or her?
> > > It is so hard to do the drug adjustment thing while working...
> >
> > It sure is. You can't come to work and say "I'm sorry I'm not terribly productive today because I'm having brain zaps and other withdrawal symptoms from discontinuing my current antidepressant medication. If I could just hang on long enough to get through this, and not jump out the window before then, I'm certain I'll eventually become a model employee. Of course I'd have to find something else that works for me first and solves all of my mental and emotional problems but I'm sure that when that day comes, you'll be glad I'm on your staff."
>
> LOL Don't you just wish we could be that honest just once?
>YES!!!
> > Hopefully I didn't offend you with my last round of Larry on vacation jokes. You didn't carry the conversation any further so I wanted to make sure. (It's not like we haven't beaten that thing to death already though...) BTW, I LOVED your James Bond comparison. Too funny esp. the line about you thinking he was just being temperamental when he threw his drink at you. Anyway, I think he's back today so we'll have to find some other topic of amusement.
>
> No problem. Larry's coming back today??? You don't think he will read all those posts, do you? ***blush***
>
> Simus
It's a little late for embarrassment now, don't you think?-K
Posted by Simus on August 13, 2004, at 22:24:10
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 18:26:52
> What would we all do without a site like this?
I don't know...
> > I am about to go see a holistic doctor. I haven't made the appointment yet though. I will tell you how it goes...
>
> Thanks. I'd be very interested in how it goes. How did you find him or her?My sister just took her daughter there and was very pleased with the first appointment. She is 100 miles from me, but if she can help me, it would certainly be worth the drive.
> > Larry's coming back today??? You don't think he will read all those posts, do you? ***blush***
> It's a little late for embarrassment now, don't you think?
Gee, you don't suppose we scared him away do you???
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 13, 2004, at 22:28:40
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 18:26:52
> > > Hopefully I didn't offend you with my last round of Larry on vacation jokes. You didn't carry the conversation any further so I wanted to make sure. (It's not like we haven't beaten that thing to death already though...) BTW, I LOVED your James Bond comparison. Too funny esp. the line about you thinking he was just being temperamental when he threw his drink at you. Anyway, I think he's back today so we'll have to find some other topic of amusement.
> >
> > No problem. Larry's coming back today??? You don't think he will read all those posts, do you? ***blush***
> >
> > Simus
>
>
> It's a little late for embarrassment now, don't you think?
>
> -KOh, please don't be embarassed....I've only read a few, and they were quite funny and imaginative.
I suppose the topics were sufficiently alternative that they also were permitted to drift slightly off on Alpine tangents.... I wish I had one of those Hoover, Larry Hoover moments....
Talk more on the morrow.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:15:08
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 3, 2004, at 10:14:59
> I am currently on Wellbutrin and Xanax. The Wellbutrin has helped the depression and I feel (relatively) quite well with the exception of insomnia, but I am wondering if the Wellbutrin has contributed to the overtaxing of my adrenal system. Not sure... But if it works for the depression/anxiety, I don't dare touch it!
One simple test of adrenal stress is to try some licorice. Do not use DGL, though. That is De-Glycyrrhizinated Licorice. Glycyrrhizin is the compound that blocks the enzyme that activates cortisol. I'll snip from an unreferenced source...."Glycyrrhetinic acid, a metabolite of glycyrrhizin, inhibits the renal conversion of cortisol to cortisone by inhibiting the enzyme 11 beta-hydroxysteroiddehydrogenase in the kidney." Cortisol is "potential cortisone", in the sense that circulating cortisol levels tell the hypothalamus that the adrenal glands are functioning up to par. By inhibiting conversion to cortisone, you not only reduce stress response, you also trick the hypothalamus into giving the adrenals a little holiday, by inhibiting the CRH cascade. Don't take licorice for more than four weeks. It can lead to other disturbances.
> P.S. Or you could save the response for when we are chatting with Larry and his better half in the hot-tub. LOL
Maybe Bob's little get-together next year might be a chance to do just that?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:24:34
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 14:09:55
> You definitely sound better and on the road to recovery. Have you ever considered taking probiotics or triphala?
What can you tell me about triphala?
> P.S. We should call over and make sure Larry and his girlfriend save us some space. If not, we could always ask them later at night when we're camped out with our sleeping bags in their hotel room!I think that might be pushing the hospitality a tad. ;-)
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:29:21
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 3, 2004, at 21:36:25
> I need serious help with sleep! Isn't tryptophan the amino acid that was banned in this country?
It was quite publicly banned, but quite quietly reinstated. The only new criterion applied to it is that, if sold for human consumption, the distributor/manufacturer is responsible for its purity.
There is so much attention paid to the quality of tryptophan on the market today, I have zero concern that the contaminant responsible for the initial hoohah will ever be found again, in tryptophan. The process responsible for that contaminant is no longer in use, anywhere.
> I have read a lot about 5HTP (I think that is right), but I was a little concerned about serotonin syndrome when I was on Lexapro so I didn't try it. But that probably wouldn't be a problem now that I am on Wellbutrin. I will have to look into it again.
Correct on both counts. Some concern with Lexapro, but little to none with Wellbutrin. Still, tryptophan would be my number one pick.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:45:45
In reply to Re: what I'm taking, posted by KaraS on August 4, 2004, at 1:17:30
> I'm sure Larry would laugh at all of our wise-cracks. (His girlfriend might not find it as funny.)
'Twas she who brought them to my attention. :-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:55:59
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 8, 2004, at 13:39:35
> By the way, allergies go along with adrenal fatigue, and with the horrible adrenal exhaustion I had last spring, I suffered from the worst allergies of my life.
By way of anecdote, my trial last spring of Enada NADH (along with additional niacinamide) not only provided me with unprecedented energy and resiliency, but my allergies were virtually absent. I typically require double-doses of allergy meds, along with inhaled steroids, just to remain functional. But not during that trial.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:59:18
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying, posted by KaraS on August 8, 2004, at 15:10:57
> I read over on the Administration board that a Psycho-Babble 6th year anniversary party is being planned (for next year I think?) in Chicago. Wouldn't that be interesting? I'd love to meet the people I've been conversing with - esp. you and Larry. Larry would be treated like a rock star. What an ego trip that would be!
Would that be rock star with groupies, or without?
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 13:05:14
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:59:18
> > I read over on the Administration board that a Psycho-Babble 6th year anniversary party is being planned (for next year I think?) in Chicago. Wouldn't that be interesting? I'd love to meet the people I've been conversing with - esp. you and Larry. Larry would be treated like a rock star. What an ego trip that would be!
>
> Would that be rock star with groupies, or without?
>
> Lar
Well, Simus and I are a little old for that kind of thing but perhaps you have some younger female fans as well...
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 13:13:30
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 13, 2004, at 22:28:40
> > > > Hopefully I didn't offend you with my last round of Larry on vacation jokes. You didn't carry the conversation any further so I wanted to make sure. (It's not like we haven't beaten that thing to death already though...) BTW, I LOVED your James Bond comparison. Too funny esp. the line about you thinking he was just being temperamental when he threw his drink at you. Anyway, I think he's back today so we'll have to find some other topic of amusement.
> > >
> > > No problem. Larry's coming back today??? You don't think he will read all those posts, do you? ***blush***
> > >
> > > Simus
> >
> >
> > It's a little late for embarrassment now, don't you think?
> >
> > -K
>
> Oh, please don't be embarassed....I've only read a few, and they were quite funny and imaginative.
>
> I suppose the topics were sufficiently alternative that they also were permitted to drift slightly off on Alpine tangents.... I wish I had one of those Hoover, Larry Hoover moments....
>
> Talk more on the morrow.
>
> Lar
>We were only kidding about being embarrassed. We thought you'd find it amusing.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:15:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? Phenylalanine, posted by robot on August 10, 2004, at 21:41:18
> I would like to know your opinions about phenylalanine. My doctor said its not good to take, and Ive read that it promotes nerve cell death (and some say cancer, but that actually worries me less).
Phenylalanine does not promote cancer, nor does it cause nerve cell death.
> I have taken the supplements before, without much result. ONe time, however, I took 500 mg (without having taken it for quite awhile) and I had a weird anxiety that lasted through the next day. I felt very irritable and confused.
There are many reasons to feel irritable and confused. Linking those feelings to a tiny dose (500 mg is very small, with respect to amino acid doses) of phenylalanine is not reasonable, if you didn't rechallenge yourself with some more, another time. I actually prefer a triple challenge, to reduce the likelihood of coincidental occurrences or placebo effect to a minimum. Placebo effect can be positive, or negative.
> Since then I have tried Spirulina powder. It seemed to stimulate me a little, but I discovered that it makes me even more mentally fuzzy than normal. Could this be the phenylalanine content? If not, what could it be? (Ive been on Lexapro 20 mg during this time.)
Some algae products contain alkaloids with psychoactive properties. It's hard to say.
> I would like to try phenyl again sometime but I want to know Im not risking something that could make my problems worse.
> thanks guysI doubt you can hurt yourself with it, if that's what you're worried about.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:21:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? Phenylalanine » KaraS, posted by robot on August 11, 2004, at 21:08:12
> http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/archdischild;78/2/116
>
> Ive seen that word "neurotoxic" associated with it more than once.
>Uhhhh, the article is only relevant to phenylketonurics. It doesn't apply to healthy people, in any respect. Phenylalanine is not neurotoxic. It's one of those myths, often used to explain aspartame toxicity, which is itself not a clear syndrome.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 13:24:44
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 12:59:18
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