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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 9:56:59
What types of supplements would lower dopamine levels? What I need to do is boost serotonin (obviously) and GABA but also lower my dopamine and norepinephrine levels. I think this is ideal for an anxious depressive. My dopamine levels are too high and this causes me to be obsessional and procrastinate.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 14, 2003, at 10:26:18
In reply to Lowering Dopamine, posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 9:56:59
> What types of supplements would lower dopamine levels? What I need to do is boost serotonin (obviously) and GABA but also lower my dopamine and norepinephrine levels. I think this is ideal for an anxious depressive. My dopamine levels are too high and this causes me to be obsessional and procrastinate.
Getting your serotonin level up will decrease dopaminergic activity. It's a bit like a teeter-totter. Try some tryptophan.
Lar
Posted by psychlover on December 14, 2003, at 10:27:56
In reply to Lowering Dopamine, posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 9:56:59
> My dopamine levels are too high and this causes me to be obsessional and procrastinate.
Does dopamine encourage obsession and procrastination? I thought it did exactly the opposite. I thought that's why people taking SSRIs sometimes develop antidepressant apathy, which I assumed was from a rise in serotonin, not dopamine.
Larry?
-psychlover
Posted by psychlover on December 14, 2003, at 10:32:11
In reply to Re: Lowering Dopamine » Civ, posted by Larry Hoover on December 14, 2003, at 10:26:18
I am also an anxious depressive, but after 8 months on Lexapro, feeling unmotivated, I thought I would try something to bring up my dopamine, so I got started on WB about a month ago, which I belive raises NE and dopamine levels. So far, I don't know if my motivation has improved, but I do feel a lot better.
I have a feeling this thread is gonna get redirected...
All the best,
psychlover
Posted by tealady on December 14, 2003, at 10:52:19
In reply to Re: Lowering Dopamine, posted by psychlover on December 14, 2003, at 10:27:56
> > My dopamine levels are too high and this causes me to be obsessional and procrastinate.
>
> Does dopamine encourage obsession and procrastination? I thought it did exactly the opposite. I thought that's why people taking SSRIs sometimes develop antidepressant apathy, which I assumed was from a rise in serotonin, not dopamine.
>
> Larry?
>
> -psychloverNot Lar but, I've been told that low serotonin can cause obsessive behaviour.
Perhaps its the "teeter-totter" as Lar said.Not sure of the procrastination...mine hasn't seemed to resolve or change as yet...despite altering , I assume, dopamine and norepi levels.
Jan
>
Posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 11:21:12
In reply to Re: Lowering Dopamine » psychlover, posted by tealady on December 14, 2003, at 10:52:19
Okay, the reason I bring this topic up is because I just read an old book (1996)called "Peak-Performance Living." I found it in my father's library and began reading it and couldn't put it down. If I read it correctly, your "baseline" of neurotransmitter activity determines your current mood.
low serotonin & high dopamine: anxious depressive
low serotonin & low dopamine: unmotivated, apathetic depressivehigh serotonin & moderate dopamine: motivated but calm; genuine feeling of happiness and low anxiety
That is apparently what is ideal. We'd like to have really high serotonin and GABA baselines and moderate dopamine and NE levels.
Posted by psychlover on December 14, 2003, at 12:47:58
In reply to Re: Lowering Dopamine, posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 11:21:12
Well, in my case I am anxious and apathetic at the same time. (I don't think they are necessarily opposite.) So what does that say about my serotonin and dopamine levels? I was depressed, anxious, and apathetic before I started meds. Now with Lexapro and a little Klonopin, I am no longer so anxious or depressed, but I am still apathetic. That's why I chose Wellbutrin, because I thought the dopamine and NE would help my motivation.
-psychlover
Posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 12:55:42
In reply to Re: Lowering Dopamine, posted by psychlover on December 14, 2003, at 12:47:58
I don't know if this has been your experience, but I find that high levels of anxiety LEAD to apathy and more depression. For instance, I'll be feeling really good at times but as soon as I start to procrastinate, engage in obsessive thinking, and experience racing thoughts, it's as if I give up. It's too overwhelming to continue experiencing so much anxiety so I stop caring altogether and become a couch potato. This is why anxious depressives need to moderate dopamine levels (not too high, not too low).
Posted by psychlover on December 15, 2003, at 19:11:26
In reply to Re: Lowering Dopamine » psychlover, posted by Civ on December 14, 2003, at 12:55:42
Posted by NoMotic on December 16, 2003, at 12:06:16
In reply to Larry Hoover, can you weigh in on this? (nm), posted by psychlover on December 15, 2003, at 19:11:26
In my moderately educated opinion, I think that a higher level of dopamine does nothing but good for most depressives. I think obsessiveness comes from too little 5-HT, as evidenced by recent studies on OCD. Procrastination in my opinion comes from too little 5-HT and too little DA, a combo of both. I think most people know that caffeine makes one motivated... this is achieved presumably through indirect release of 5-HT, NE, and DA.
Increased 5-HT does not lead to lower DA, necessarily. Sometimes, yes, sometimes no. Increased activity in that 5-HT2a receptor decreases dopamine activity in the PFC. Increased activity at the 5-HT1a receptor increases dopamine activity. Note how newer antipsychotics achieve increases in PFC functioning through 5-HT1a agonism and 5-HT2a antagonism.
Thus, it is speculated that people who take SSRI's long term experience excessive stimulation of the 5-HT2a receptors on the DA nerve terminal which actually inhibits DA... and therefore antidepressant apathy appears.
I agree that a general state of high serotonin and high dopamine is most beneficial, but again this cannot apply across the board.
I think anxiety also involved too much epinephrine and norepinephrine in certain regions of the brain as well as too much serotonin in certain regions of the brain. Certain regions is the keyword here. Serotonin is activating in some respects, inhibiting in others.
Studies in monkeys show a U curve for norepinephrine - too little and one is underaroused. Too much and one is too aroused to block out external signals. Yet ADD is helped through increased norepinephrine in the synapse, thus increasing motivation and interest.
It's incredibly complex... obviously.
This is the end of the thread.
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