![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 1:29:09
My extreme response to a ridicolous amount (2*200+100) of epa/dha from the very first day + a ton of other clues had made think about the fact that I could be bipolar II (plus adhd).
I have also the suspicion that triptophan is making my mood swings more frequent (ultra-rapid cycling).
My answer is ... which are the alternative to traditional mood stabilizers ? I have heard about magnesium ... did anyone have success on it ?
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 7:21:50
In reply to natural mood-stabilizers ? , posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 1:29:09
> My extreme response to a ridicolous amount (2*200+100) of epa/dha from the very first day + a ton of other clues had made think about the fact that I could be bipolar II (plus adhd).
>
> I have also the suspicion that triptophan is making my mood swings more frequent (ultra-rapid cycling).
>
> My answer is ... which are the alternative to traditional mood stabilizers ? I have heard about magnesium ... did anyone have success on it ?Magnesium alone might tip the balance, and let you go back to the fish oil. There is substantial evidence of imbalance of these fatty acids in the brains of ADD/ADHD individuals.
I think some phospholipids are in order, as well. That's soya lecithin granules (my preferred source), a few teaspoons a day (they taste good straight up), plus some phosphatidylserine.
Please try to be patient while we sort this out. Your strong response to supplements shows that nutrition is a big part of your personal situation....i.e. your past diet hasn't been good for your health.
Lar
Posted by Francesco on November 25, 2003, at 14:43:35
In reply to Re: natural mood-stabilizers ? » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 7:21:50
> Magnesium alone might tip the balance, and let you go back to the fish oil. There is substantial evidence of imbalance of these fatty acids in the brains of ADD/ADHD individuals.
You mean by fish oil what I mean ? (epa plus dha)I have also the impression that epa+dha works as far as it is my system while gets me hypo when it's out. Does this make any sense to you? (I have had a similar pattern of response with Ritalin: hypo when the effect faded out)
I have some magnesium capsules in which magnesium is 33% and proteins 66%. May you explain me which are the pro and cons of taking suplements in mixed compounds ?
> I think some phospholipids are in order, as well. That's soya lecithin granules (my preferred source), a few teaspoons a day (they taste good straight up), plus some phosphatidylserine.
Thanks, I think one of my next steps would be soya lecithin. It has the advantage that I know the italian translation ;-)
> Please try to be patient while we sort this out. Your strong response to supplements shows that nutrition is a big part of your personal situation....i.e. your past diet hasn't been good for your health.
Patience is what I missed in the the last two weeks : ) I have been a bit overwhelmed by all things I was discovering and all the alternatives available.
You should be right about my past diet deficiencies. In the last ten years or more I ate pratically nothing which was considered "healthy". I have avoided vegatables, fruits and fish, thinking it was a kind of superstition. You know, the kind of thing that your grandma says ... Let’s say I was wrong ;-)
You have been very kind and clear. What suplements do I have to take to be like you ? lol
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:30:51
In reply to Re: natural mood-stabilizers ? » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 7:21:50
Yeah, time came for a bit of a shake up in the regimen.
The piracetam turned out to be a real dud for me (even 4800 mg at a crack did nothing above my "standard" baseline) so I returned it. Sherwyn's policy is exchange-only, so I picked up some Idebenone as well as phosphatidylserine.
Encouraged by Francesco's results I got some gingko at another place and some methylcobalamin (chew/dissolve tabs) to try out as well.
Looks like I'll be busy trying this stuff out for a while. The gingko and B12 trials should go pretty quick, right?
Posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 2:37:45
In reply to Re: natural mood-stabilizers ? » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 7:21:50
> Magnesium alone might tip the balance, and let you go back to the fish oil. There is substantial evidence of imbalance of these fatty acids in the brains of ADD/ADHD individuals.I had some strange phyisical reaction to EPA/DHA.
I cough in a very typical way (like I had a bronchitis ), I get a mild ache in the bones (like rheumathism) and headache (I suspect dued to a raising in blood pressure). Is this sign or something else according to your knowledge ?
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:38:42
In reply to epa/dha physical reactions » Larry Hoover, posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 2:37:45
>
> > Magnesium alone might tip the balance, and let you go back to the fish oil. There is substantial evidence of imbalance of these fatty acids in the brains of ADD/ADHD individuals.
>
> I had some strange phyisical reaction to EPA/DHA.
> I cough in a very typical way (like I had a bronchitis ), I get a mild ache in the bones (like rheumathism) and headache (I suspect dued to a raising in blood pressure). Is this sign or something else according to your knowledge ?
>It sounds exactly backwards to what I would expect.
Paradoxical reactions are sometimes explained as exaggerated feedback responses.....your body is so not used to having any EPA and DHA around that it is totally primed to over-ride the effects they produce....
Try a very low dose, with meals. Or, just eat fish.
Lar
Posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 10:33:32
In reply to Re: epa/dha physical reactions » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:38:42
Thanks Lar, I will try on a lower dose. I must say that I like fish oil anyway. Sometimes it makes me feel weird but your argument sound plausible. If you have some link to post about I would appreciate it. Bye, and thanks again for all you're doing on this board.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 12:02:50
In reply to if larry says something there must be a good reaso » Larry Hoover, posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 10:33:32
> Thanks Lar, I will try on a lower dose. I must say that I like fish oil anyway. Sometimes it makes me feel weird but your argument sound plausible. If you have some link to post about I would appreciate it. Bye, and thanks again for all you're doing on this board.
Plausibility soothes the mind. It really doesn't matter if an argument is right or not. I am full of theories (and maybe other stuff too), but what matters is what works (or not).
I hope you find what you're looking for.
And it is my pleasure to contribute. You're very welcome.
Lar
Posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 13:50:37
In reply to Re: if larry says something there must be a good reaso » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 12:02:50
You seem to know much more things than me on the subject. That's the reason why I'm really interested in your theories. I know anyway that theories are like ... gonades (everybody has its own). But I appreciate much more alternative point of view than what I listen to everyday on every TV channell : )
I bought some soy lecithin granules, following your suggestion. How to start ? You mentioned in a previous post that the fact that I had a so quick response on aminos could mean that I have some very old-dated nutrional deficiency (sorry if the periphrasis is not correct). Where could I begin with ? Thanks for sharing what you're sharing (and sorry for every mispelling or strange word that could happen here and there ... English is not my mother language)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 7:04:13
In reply to tried to ask google but google is deaf ;-) » Larry Hoover, posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 13:50:37
> You seem to know much more things than me on the subject. That's the reason why I'm really interested in your theories. I know anyway that theories are like ... gonades (everybody has its own). But I appreciate much more alternative point of view than what I listen to everyday on every TV channell : )
I will help in any way I can.
About Google.....the most important thing is to develop keyword strategies....selecting words that might be unique to the topic you want to learn about. That does mean you need to have some idea of what you're looking for, so you might want to bookmark some of the sites listed here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031122/msgs/282795.html
I just did a Google search using the following keywords: lecithin phospholipid mood.
I got good hits.
> I bought some soy lecithin granules, following your suggestion. How to start ?
I know you are far away from me.....I hope those granules are like the ones I see here.
I just get a teaspoon, and eat 5 or so teaspoons of the granules, just as they are. Mine have a mild flavour, somewhat nutty, and pleasant. They do stick in the teeth a bit....
If the texture is not so good in your mouth, you could sprinkle them over a salad, or cereal, or vegetables. Whatever.
> You mentioned in a previous post that the fact that I had a so quick response on aminos could mean that I have some very old-dated nutrional deficiency (sorry if the periphrasis is not correct). Where could I begin with ?
You want to do all you can to optimize how your body is using these chemicals. That means two things: a) supplying a great variety of nutrients to get the maximum efficiency out of all the nutrients; b) also supplying nutrients that are calming and balancing. Get everything working better *and* smoother.
The problem is that if you change a bunch of things at the same time, you won't have a clear idea of what each change does to you, specifically.
So try the lecithin for a couple of days.
Then (and I know this is a bunch of changes all at once), start taking B-complex (a blend of all the B-vitamins), extra B-12, zinc (30-40 mg/day) and selenium (200 micrograms/day). These all work together anyway, so consider them a "package".
If the lecithin works as I hope it does, and the "package" is too stimulating, then add in some niacinamide (one particular form of B-3), and we'll pick up from there, later.
> Thanks for sharing what you're sharing (and sorry for every mispelling or strange word that could happen here and there ... English is not my mother language)
You're very welcome.
Lar
Posted by Francesco on November 28, 2003, at 9:21:07
In reply to Re: tried to ask google but google is deaf ;-) » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 7:04:13
> I just did a Google search using the following keywords: lecithin phospholipid mood.
>
> I got good hits.I got good hits too now ;-)
> I just get a teaspoon, and eat 5 or so teaspoons of the granules, just as they are. Mine have a mild flavour, somewhat nutty, and pleasant. They do stick in the teeth a bit....
What do I have to expect in terms of 'side effects' ? The pharmacist was a bit circumspective in selling it to me, like I had asked him 'pot'. What does he fear for in your opinion ?
I know remember that a couple of weeks ago I had dinner with a friend of mine who used letichin to flavour a soup. She kidded about the fact that letichin could be useful for memory and after the soup I actually felt 'tuned'. I didn't realize anyway that letichin could be the cause.
> The problem is that if you change a bunch of things at the same time, you won't have a clear idea of what each change does to you, specifically.
You're right. Should I have to suspend triptophan, ginko and epa/dha to see what happens with lethicin alone in your opinion ?
> So try the lecithin for a couple of days.
>
> Then (and I know this is a bunch of changes all at once), start taking B-complex (a blend of all the B-vitamins), extra B-12, zinc (30-40 mg/day) and selenium (200 micrograms/day). These all work together anyway, so consider them a "package".What are the reasons to add all this stuff in a second time ? I mean, why not now ? Wilful to learn : ) (I hope my pharmacist won't say anything about zinc, selenium and extra b-12 ...)
> You're very welcome.
Why did I waste my time studying philosphy ? ;-)
Posted by JLx on November 29, 2003, at 7:31:27
In reply to Re: tried to ask google but google is deaf ;-) » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 7:04:13
> I just get a teaspoon, and eat 5 or so teaspoons of the granules, just as they are. Mine have a mild flavour, somewhat nutty, and pleasant. They do stick in the teeth a bit.... If the texture is not so good in your mouth, you could sprinkle them over a salad, or cereal, or vegetables. Whatever.What about the capsules, are they inferior? I find them more convenient as I don't eat salad, cereal or vegetables. ;) How many grams are required as a minimum? And are there any people/conditions/predilictions when lecithin is not advised? I've been taking just 1 capsule a day which isn't very much I see, so wonder if I might benefit from more.
JL
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 8:10:13
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 29, 2003, at 7:31:27
> > I just get a teaspoon, and eat 5 or so teaspoons of the granules, just as they are. Mine have a mild flavour, somewhat nutty, and pleasant. They do stick in the teeth a bit.... If the texture is not so good in your mouth, you could sprinkle them over a salad, or cereal, or vegetables. Whatever.
>
> What about the capsules, are they inferior? I find them more convenient as I don't eat salad, cereal or vegetables. ;)What on Earth do you eat, then? Supplements are no substitute for e.g. veggies.
The capsules may or may not be equivalent. The word lecithin has both a specific and generic meaning, unfortunately. Some mean it to refer to phosphatidylcholine. Some mean it to refer to phospholipids more generally. And some mean it to refer to "the gunk that's left when soybean oil is refined".
The product I'm thinking of when I mention lecithin granules is (so I'm told), three different phospholipids (phosphatidyl-choline, -ethanolamine, and -inositol) blended with a little bit of soya flour.
It has a very mild flavour, something like a cashew....(I'm trying to find an analogy...I know each food tastes unique). Just smell the product before you buy it. It should not smell stale. I buy mine at a bulk/health food store, and it is amazingly inexpensive.
You don't need to think of it as a veggie. It won't detract from your (un)healthy diet. ;-)
> How many grams are required as a minimum?
If fish oil has an effect, then this stuff should too. I don't mean that to imply that only those who respond to fish oil may benefit from lecithin. Fish oil and phospholipids work together. It takes both a phospholipid molecule and omega-3 fatty acids together (and other stuff), to make one neuron membrane molecule.
Dose is variable, as with fish oil. It won't hurt you. There is no upper dose limit.
> And are there any people/conditions/predilictions when lecithin is not advised?
If you had one of those conditions, you would know about it (if you were still alive).
> I've been taking just 1 capsule a day which isn't very much I see, so wonder if I might benefit from more.
>
> JLLet's see....your hypothesis is that one capsule of your lecithin per day may be inadequate....Can you design an experiment to test the hypothesis?
NB: Lecithin capsules, if they contain an oily liquid, almost certainly are purified phosphatidylcholine. While that is beneficial, there are three other phospholipids to consider. Soya lecithin has PC, and two others, but contains nearly no phosphatidylserine. It may be more important than the other three, altogether. Some believe that PS has modulatory activity, akin to hormones/neurotransmitters. Unfortunately, there is no natural source that supplies PS in high concentration, so the only alternative is to buy a synthetic, and it is expensive, relative to the others.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 8:23:54
In reply to lethicin granules » Larry Hoover, posted by Francesco on November 28, 2003, at 9:21:07
> > I just did a Google search using the following keywords: lecithin phospholipid mood.
> >
> > I got good hits.
>
> I got good hits too now ;-)If you just search using lecithin, you're going to get all the commercial sites first, and all their propaganda. Searching the net is an art. It takes practice.
> > I just get a teaspoon, and eat 5 or so teaspoons of the granules, just as they are. Mine have a mild flavour, somewhat nutty, and pleasant. They do stick in the teeth a bit....
>
> What do I have to expect in terms of 'side effects' ?A need to brush your teeth. You may feel more mellow.
> The pharmacist was a bit circumspective in selling it to me, like I had asked him 'pot'. What does he fear for in your opinion ?
I have no idea. Are "health food" people looked at as weird over there?
> I know remember that a couple of weeks ago I had dinner with a friend of mine who used letichin to flavour a soup. She kidded about the fact that letichin could be useful for memory and after the soup I actually felt 'tuned'. I didn't realize anyway that letichin could be the cause.
Could be....but there are many soups with high nutritive value. Lecithin in a soup will help bring out flavour of herbs, without the negative effects of other flavour enhancers like monosodium glutamate.
> > The problem is that if you change a bunch of things at the same time, you won't have a clear idea of what each change does to you, specifically.
>
> You're right. Should I have to suspend triptophan, ginko and epa/dha to see what happens with lethicin alone in your opinion ?No, no need to stop taking those other things....you want to change as few things at one time as you can.....stopping something is itself a change.
> > So try the lecithin for a couple of days.
> >
> > Then (and I know this is a bunch of changes all at once), start taking B-complex (a blend of all the B-vitamins), extra B-12, zinc (30-40 mg/day) and selenium (200 micrograms/day). These all work together anyway, so consider them a "package".
>
> What are the reasons to add all this stuff in a second time ?So you know what the lecithin does.
> I mean, why not now ? Wilful to learn : )
In the end, you want to have an intuitive understanding of how nutrition and supplements affect your well-being. And you get that understanding by paying attention to how you feel as you do these experiments. Over time, you'll get to a point where just noticing that you're feeling a certain way will prompt you to take a supplement of a particular type.
> (I hope my pharmacist won't say anything about zinc, selenium and extra b-12 ...)
Can you not just buy these without dealing with a pharmacist? I know the EU was bringing in a bunch of new rules around vitamins, but has it come to that, where you have to ask a pharmacist?
> > You're very welcome.
>
> Why did I waste my time studying philosphy ? ;-)I'm trying to help you reap the benefits of studying philosophy...
Good luck,
Lar
Posted by DSCH on November 29, 2003, at 14:20:17
In reply to lethicin granules » Larry Hoover, posted by Francesco on November 28, 2003, at 9:21:07
> Why did I waste my time studying philosphy ? ;-)
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein;-)
Posted by DSCH on November 29, 2003, at 14:31:03
In reply to Re: lethicin granules » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 8:23:54
OK, Lar, I was worrying that in my haste I had grabbed an inferior form of lecithin.
I got Vitamin Shoppe's Lecithin 1200 mg (19 grains) softgells.
From each softgell...
"Typical values:
P. choline 180 mg
P. ethanolamine 144 mg
P. inositol 108 mg
Linolic acid 324 mg
Linolenic acid 84 mg"How does this compare to the content of your granules?
I got 100 of these for $4.77. Be interesting to see mg/$.
Posted by DSCH on November 29, 2003, at 14:40:45
In reply to Re: natural mood-stabilizers ? » Francesco , posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 7:21:50
Larry, care to discourse on what the body does with the various phosphatidyls and how they can help? Francesco's pdoc says they don't cross over the BBB, is he correct? What would be a rule of thumb for starting dose (in mgs of the constituents)? Which disorders are most likely linked to problems with them?
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 16:55:15
In reply to Q's on the usefulness of the phosphatdyls » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 29, 2003, at 14:40:45
> Larry, care to discourse on what the body does with the various phosphatidyls and how they can help?
I have been searching for a good website, but they're either too geeky, too specific, or too brief.
However, you might get something out of this:
http://academic.mu.edu/bisc/siebenlistk/113_413membranes.pdfI've read lots of information that says that dietary phospholipids have no direct physiological effect, but I am of a different opinion.
> Francesco's pdoc says they don't cross over the BBB, is he correct?
No, absolutely wrong. The brain has a higher phospholipid content than any other part of the body....it needs constant resupply. I don't know what that pdoc was (not) thinking....
> What would be a rule of thumb for starting dose (in mgs of the constituents)?
I don't know.
> Which disorders are most likely linked to problems with them?
Any mental disorder, IMHO.
More talk another time....
Lar
Posted by JLx on November 29, 2003, at 17:59:44
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 8:10:13
> > What about the capsules, are they inferior? I find them more convenient as I don't eat salad, cereal or vegetables. ;)
>
> What on Earth do you eat, then? Supplements are no substitute for e.g. veggies.I eat a few veggies, just not the very healthy, i.e. green ones. I find them so unpalatable if I were out in the wild I would assume they were poison. ;) I think I may be one of those "supertasters" as lots of stuff, like veggies, coffee, beer, taste very unpleasantly bitter to me.
> The capsules may or may not be equivalent. The word lecithin has both a specific and generic meaning, unfortunately. Some mean it to refer to phosphatidylcholine. Some mean it to refer to phospholipids more generally. And some mean it to refer to "the gunk that's left when soybean oil is refined".
Ok, I will get some granules as my capsules are almost gone now anyway.
> It has a very mild flavour, something like a cashew....(I'm trying to find an analogy...I know each food tastes unique). Just smell the product before you buy it. It should not smell stale. I buy mine at a bulk/health food store, and it is amazingly inexpensive.
>
> You don't need to think of it as a veggie. It won't detract from your (un)healthy diet. ;-)Hey, now, aside from the veggie deficit, my diet is quite healthy. :)
> > How many grams are required as a minimum?
>
> If fish oil has an effect, then this stuff should too. I don't mean that to imply that only those who respond to fish oil may benefit from lecithin. Fish oil and phospholipids work together. It takes both a phospholipid molecule and omega-3 fatty acids together (and other stuff), to make one neuron membrane molecule.
>
> Dose is variable, as with fish oil. It won't hurt you. There is no upper dose limit.Ok, great. I will definitely try it then. I think the fish oil is helpful, as I started feeling a bit better in some can't-put-my-finger-on-it way after I was taking it about 3-4 weeks.
> > And are there any people/conditions/predilictions when lecithin is not advised?
>
> If you had one of those conditions, you would know about it (if you were still alive).Ok, I guess I was still thinking about that choline business per Dr. Walsh. (Choline contraindicated for the undermethylated.)
> NB: Lecithin capsules, if they contain an oily liquid, almost certainly are purified phosphatidylcholine. While that is beneficial, there are three other phospholipids to consider. Soya lecithin has PC, and two others, but contains nearly no phosphatidylserine. It may be more important than the other three, altogether. Some believe that PS has modulatory activity, akin to hormones/neurotransmitters. Unfortunately, there is no natural source that supplies PS in high concentration, so the only alternative is to buy a synthetic, and it is expensive, relative to the others.Yeah, I know that that stuff is really pricey. I did try it once before years ago, and didn't notice any difference taking it.
Thanks,
JL
Posted by tealady on November 29, 2003, at 23:49:19
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 8:10:13
Lar,
If I'm avoiding soy due to being hypothyroid..any idea if I can take soy lecithin?
Thanks, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 7:32:05
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 29, 2003, at 17:59:44
>
> > > What about the capsules, are they inferior? I find them more convenient as I don't eat salad, cereal or vegetables. ;)
> >
> > What on Earth do you eat, then? Supplements are no substitute for e.g. veggies.
>
> I eat a few veggies, just not the very healthy, i.e. green ones. I find them so unpalatable if I were out in the wild I would assume they were poison. ;) I think I may be one of those "supertasters" as lots of stuff, like veggies, coffee, beer, taste very unpleasantly bitter to me.I'm sorry, sarcastic teasing doesn't often survive the journey through the Internet relay servers.
The supertaster problem is very real. I sympathize with you. It may be a stretch, but cream sauces might help. For example, milk or cream added to coffee preferentially binds bitter components....in effect sweetening the brew without sugar. It may help with the veggies, though you'd have to watch the calories. There are also green veggie concentrates available, such as Greens+. I have no idea what they're like, but you would get a good dose of the "missing" phytochemicals.
> > The capsules may or may not be equivalent. The word lecithin has both a specific and generic meaning, unfortunately. Some mean it to refer to phosphatidylcholine. Some mean it to refer to phospholipids more generally. And some mean it to refer to "the gunk that's left when soybean oil is refined".
>
> Ok, I will get some granules as my capsules are almost gone now anyway.
>
> > It has a very mild flavour, something like a cashew....(I'm trying to find an analogy...I know each food tastes unique). Just smell the product before you buy it. It should not smell stale. I buy mine at a bulk/health food store, and it is amazingly inexpensive.
> >
> > You don't need to think of it as a veggie. It won't detract from your (un)healthy diet. ;-)
>
> Hey, now, aside from the veggie deficit, my diet is quite healthy. :)I'm sure it is....just checking. ;-)
> > > How many grams are required as a minimum?
> >
> > If fish oil has an effect, then this stuff should too. I don't mean that to imply that only those who respond to fish oil may benefit from lecithin. Fish oil and phospholipids work together. It takes both a phospholipid molecule and omega-3 fatty acids together (and other stuff), to make one neuron membrane molecule.
> >
> > Dose is variable, as with fish oil. It won't hurt you. There is no upper dose limit.
>
> Ok, great. I will definitely try it then. I think the fish oil is helpful, as I started feeling a bit better in some can't-put-my-finger-on-it way after I was taking it about 3-4 weeks.Ya, that's a valid way to describe the fish oil effect. I also get something like that from lecithin.
> > > And are there any people/conditions/predilictions when lecithin is not advised?
> >
> > If you had one of those conditions, you would know about it (if you were still alive).
>
> Ok, I guess I was still thinking about that choline business per Dr. Walsh. (Choline contraindicated for the undermethylated.)Choline is in every meal you eat....restricting intake of a core nutrient is just not feasible. Sometimes those doctors just don't think.
> > NB: Lecithin capsules, if they contain an oily liquid, almost certainly are purified phosphatidylcholine. While that is beneficial, there are three other phospholipids to consider. Soya lecithin has PC, and two others, but contains nearly no phosphatidylserine. It may be more important than the other three, altogether. Some believe that PS has modulatory activity, akin to hormones/neurotransmitters. Unfortunately, there is no natural source that supplies PS in high concentration, so the only alternative is to buy a synthetic, and it is expensive, relative to the others.
>
> Yeah, I know that that stuff is really pricey. I did try it once before years ago, and didn't notice any difference taking it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> JLI can feel the effect of PS in minutes. I guess we're all different.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 7:33:05
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on November 29, 2003, at 23:49:19
> Lar,
> If I'm avoiding soy due to being hypothyroid..any idea if I can take soy lecithin?
> Thanks, JanThe oil-filled caps, yes, but not the granules. The granules also contain soya flour.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 7:58:18
In reply to Q's on the usefulness of the phosphatdyls » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 29, 2003, at 14:40:45
> Larry, care to discourse on what the body does with the various phosphatidyls and how they can help? Francesco's pdoc says they don't cross over the BBB, is he correct? What would be a rule of thumb for starting dose (in mgs of the constituents)? Which disorders are most likely linked to problems with them?
I want to add.....
One of the "theories" about how neurotranmsitter deficiencies may develop in the brain involves faulty vescicle construction.
Just as each neuron is surrounded by a lipid bilayer membrane, tiny versions of that same bilayer (analogous to bubbles, I guess), are used to store neurotransmitters, adjacent to the synapse. Those bubbles are called vescicles. In response to an activating signal, the vescicle bubble moves to the surface of the cell, and it "bursts" open, but that's really more like the smaller bubble joining the bigger one (if you've ever had a bubble bath, you've undoubtedly watched this happen). Anyway, the vescicle theory of neurotransmitter depletion invokes the idea that the vescicles are not constructed properly (raw material shortages? phospholipid synthesis problems?), and they leak....permitting exposure to degredative enzymes like COMT and MAO.
I'm a strong believer in supplying raw materials to the body, and I'm a strong believer in my body knowing what to do with them, once supplied. If you are not phospholipid deficient, then supplements are merely (somewhat expensive) energy sources, supplying nine calories per gram, just like other lipids in food. However, if you do have biochemical inefficiencies, or dietary deficiencies......you can connect the dots.
Lar
Posted by Francesco on December 1, 2003, at 5:39:01
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 7:33:05
... so I wouldn't rely too much on what he said. He said also that psychostimulant affect directly also serotonin "as far as I remember" and that Reboxetine "isn't a SNRI, isn't it ?". Therefore it seems that Larry's theory should be more reliable compared to his.
Posted by JLx on December 1, 2003, at 8:05:28
In reply to Re: Lecithin capsuls vs granules » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 7:32:05
> > I eat a few veggies, just not the very healthy, i.e. green ones. I find them so unpalatable if I were out in the wild I would assume they were poison. ;) I think I may be one of those "supertasters" as lots of stuff, like veggies, coffee, beer, taste very unpleasantly bitter to me.
> I'm sorry, sarcastic teasing doesn't often survive the journey through the Internet relay servers.Neither does the lighthearted response sometimes. ;)
> The supertaster problem is very real. I sympathize with you. It may be a stretch, but cream sauces might help. For example, milk or cream added to coffee preferentially binds bitter components....in effect sweetening the brew without sugar. It may help with the veggies, though you'd have to watch the calories. There are also green veggie concentrates available, such as Greens+. I have no idea what they're like, but you would get a good dose of the "missing" phytochemicals.
Yes, I'd like to try those Greens+ products one day, but right now am limiting my supplement spending to essentials. (I don't eat dairy now either, so those cream things are out too.)
> > > The capsules may or may not be equivalent. The word lecithin has both a specific and generic meaning, unfortunately. Some mean it to refer to phosphatidylcholine. Some mean it to refer to phospholipids more generally. And some mean it to refer to "the gunk that's left when soybean oil is refined".
> >
> > Ok, I will get some granules as my capsules are almost gone now anyway.Well, seeing your response to Jan...perhaps I will stick with the capsules, just try taking more of them, as I avoid soy also due to hypothyroid tendencies.
> > Ok, I guess I was still thinking about that choline business per Dr. Walsh. (Choline contraindicated for the undermethylated.)
>
> Choline is in every meal you eat....restricting intake of a core nutrient is just not feasible. Sometimes those doctors just don't think.Oh, no need to mince words now, Larry. <g>
JL
This is the end of the thread.
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