![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JLx on September 18, 2003, at 20:42:54
Some of you may remember me posting previously re "Miraculous Results With Magnesium" especially concerning George Eby's website, "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment" http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html.
I ran into trouble after two months despite making no substantive changes in my supplement and diet regimen. I attributed it to hormonal fluctuations as I had some obvious changes coinciding with the drop in my mood. I started taking natural progesterone, after reading a couple books and numerous webpages about it, and after two weeks felt even worse, so I quit that. [Then I happened to read someone else's book who said that the natural progesterone people had it all backward! I think she might be right.]
It was up and down from then on and I can't really say what I did and didn't do and how it worked/didn't work because I didn't keep track of specifics. I am CONVINCED, however, that even my sometimes ragged magnesium supplementation kept me from feeling suicidal. I've never been as unfunctional as I was this summer before without having suicidal ideation. And interestingly, after reading "Depression-Free for Life: A Physician's All-Natural, 5-Step Plan"
by Gabriel Cousens, I tried one of his recommendations, glutamine, this week and after one day, I WAS suicidal. Then I took taurine and felt better again the very next day. [George Eby is recommending magnesium taurate these days, instead of glycinate, which is where I got that idea.] If nothing else, that little experiment convinced me of how much better I really had been feeling all summer compared to olden days where waking up right into a feeling of wanting to put a gun to my head was commonplace -- even while on antidepressants. [The circumstances of my life right now -- joblessness, house about to be foreclosed, IRS on my tail, etc. pretty much preclude a truly "good mood", I suspect. ;)]Anyway, I am trying to figure things out and am happy to see this new board! :)
Posted by tealady on September 18, 2003, at 22:40:41
In reply to Magnesium Miracle Revisited, posted by JLx on September 18, 2003, at 20:42:54
> Some of you may remember me posting previously re "Miraculous Results With Magnesium" especially concerning George Eby's website, "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment" http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html.
I was reading this thread yesterday...I agree with the gist of it
I always have to grin when I read statements like "Consider this: the risk of mortality for Japanese women who practice tea ceremony is half of other Japanese women" .. (in the l-theanine part)> I ran into trouble after two months despite making no substantive changes in my supplement and diet regimen. I attributed it to hormonal fluctuations as I had some obvious changes coinciding with the drop in my mood. I started taking natural progesterone, after reading a couple books and numerous webpages about it, and after two weeks felt even worse, so I quit that. [Then I happened to read someone else's book who said that the natural progesterone people had it all backward! I think she might be right.]
Vliet or Larrian Gillepsie?..they reportedly seem to work for most
>
> It was up and down from then on and I can't really say what I did and didn't do and how it worked/didn't work because I didn't keep track of specifics. I am CONVINCED, however, that even my sometimes ragged magnesium supplementation kept me from feeling suicidal. I've never been as unfunctional as I was this summer before without having suicidal ideation.I think it helps too
And interestingly, after reading "Depression-Free for Life: A Physician's All-Natural, 5-Step Plan"
> by Gabriel Cousens, I tried one of his recommendations, glutamine, this week and after one day, I WAS suicidal.You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out.
I have sensitivites to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too?
Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?Then I took taurine and felt better again the very next day. [George Eby is recommending magnesium taurate these days, instead of glycinate, which is where I got that idea.]
That's good to know, has anyone else tried taurine? It's not something I've come across of as yet. anyone else tried magnesium taurate?
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 19, 2003, at 0:45:11
In reply to Magnesium Miracle Revisited, posted by JLx on September 18, 2003, at 20:42:54
after reading "Depression-Free for Life: A Physician's All-Natural, 5-Step Plan"
> by Gabriel Cousens, I tried one of his recommendations, glutamine, this week and after one day, I WAS suicidal.
>Then I took taurine and felt better again the very next day. [George Eby is recommending magnesium taurate these days, instead of glycinate, which is where I got that idea.]Hi again,
back here http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030411/msgs/219064.html
>I experimented with magnesium citrate last week and find the magnesium glycinate more effective for stress. (I was taking plenty of mg citrate to compensate for its lesser absorption too.)
It's been 7 weeks now on my whole new regimen of magnesium, other supplements and dietary changes and I still feel great. Except for a little matter of not having a job or other income....;)
You were taking citrate and glycinate...How does the taurate, citrate and glycinate compare with you?
Jan
Posted by JLx on September 19, 2003, at 8:12:41
In reply to Re: Magnesium Miracle Revisited » JLx, posted by tealady on September 18, 2003, at 22:40:41
> Vliet or Larrian Gillepsie?..they reportedly seem to work for most
Yes, it was Vliet in "Screaming to be Heard: Hormonal Connections Women Suspect, and Doctors Still Ignore". Before that I had read, "Natural Progesterone: The Natural Way to Alleviate Symptoms of Menopause, Pms, Endometriosis and Other Hormone-Related Problems"
by Anna Rushton, Shirley A. Bond and "The Estrogen Alternative: Natural Hormone Therapy with Botanical Progesterone"
by Raquel Martin, Judi Gerstung. (Those were the books I could get immediately from my local library network.) I thought the natural progesterone folks all made a lot of sense, but then Vliet brought me up short when she said, when do we usually feel the worst in a month, if not just before a period when progesterone is high?I know natural progesterone is said to work for many and I found it very disappointing it didn't for me, although I did later find a message board where some other women had had a bad experience too.
I wouldn't rule out trying natural progesterone again -- perhaps I took too much or it would have been ok if I'd stuck it out longer, but basically I felt I had to quit it because I was feeling so much worse, and CRAVING carbohydrates as well, which was something I'd been free of on magnesium.
I'm not giving up on the hormone business though. I think it just need more information and experience. I noted with great interest, for instance, in Eby's site or one of his links, that estrogen increases utilization of magnesium.
For years, I took a women's herbal formula that included 25 mg of DHEA because it was the only appreciable thing that helped with depression. I found that out by inadvertently buying the DHEAless version of the same brand and noticing I felt worse. I had just quit that when I started on magnesium. I'm back on it again, just taking it a bit less than previously.
I think now in general, that without the DHEA, with the magnesium, with other radical dietary changes leading to a weight loss of 45 lbs (fat=estrogen, fat loss=grhelin and who knows what other hormones and how they intereact with each other) I was just way out of whack hormonally after two months. Some of it may have been a normal fluctuation, as I didn't have a period for 4-5 months, and restarted again but Eby says boron, which I've also been taking, can bring back periods in menopausal women which implies a major hormonal impact just from that.
I'm being so longwinded, in case anyone can shed some light on these hormonal/depression interactions. What's your experience/opinion of the John R. Lee school of thought re natural progesterone?
> I think it helps too.And this is no small thing! Psychiatrists should be inquiring about their patients magnesium intake when they express suicide ideation. I don't care how depressed and unfunctional I am, it's ten times worse being haunted by thoughts/feelings of suicide too. There was even a specific study done about that that should have given them a clue. It really makes me angry that they are so ignorant of nutrition and how it impacts depression.
> You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivites to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?I'm confused about the difference between glutaMINE, glutamatic acid and glutamates....about excitotoxins and excitatory neurotransmitters in general.
Eby has a whole section on Glutamate Toxicity here, http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#glutamate He says that magnesium aspartate and magnesium glutamate must be avoided for depression. His new and lengthy section on taurine is here: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#taurine
> That's good to know, has anyone else tried taurine? It's not something I've come across of as yet. anyone else tried magnesium taurate?I haven't tried magnesium taurate but looked around for how expensive it is; it looks like the cheapest source for Cardiovascular Research's brand, as sold/recommended by Eby, is not him, but Vitamin Shoppe -- by $40 a case (12 bottles). To get 1 gram of magnesium per day, you need to take 8 capsules so one bottle only lasts about a week. It's more expensive than magnesium glycinate which was already more expensive than other forms of magnesium, so I probably won't be trying it unless I become convinced it's worth it. I am going to start eating cottage cheese though, despite my "no dairy" rule as it has a high percentage of taurine and is low in calcium.
Posted by EERRIICC on September 19, 2003, at 8:18:10
In reply to Magnesium Miracle Revisited, posted by JLx on September 18, 2003, at 20:42:54
In "Brazilian-Amazon" regions the shamen (curanderoes) use a DMT based brew(see Erwoid)combined with a "living vine" called Ayehuesa. It is claimed to eliminate stubborn, intractable, depressions and cancer along with other chronic conditions. No other miracle claims are made,this was more or less just a statement of what it does. The prearranged trips offered by a few agencies (Spirit Quest)may be too fast, expensive, and money orienated. I found a place however,called La Sachamama that is a sort of intense purification hospital (with "dieterous")and bi-weekly Ayehusca Ceremonies. It is run by a doctor and several expert "curanderous"/shamen. It seems like their treatment of depression is incredibly effective and soul cleansing, since the vine apparently "knows your pain and works to alleviate it". I'm simultaneously scared and attracted by such a thing, because I fear the loss of control/ego that comes with psychedelics (a "bad hash" experience may have triggered my first depressive episode)
I'm not sure you can sign in to La Sachamana if you are on meds (but they may help you to ween you off them once you're there)since they interfere with the Ayehuesca brew's effects (esp.MAOI's) (lots more sketchy but interesting
info. on Erowoid) The individual ingredients in the complex Ayehuesca drink do not seem like things that should be experimented with casually. Also,I bet a visit to "La Sachamama" would be real cheap without the middle men. I have decided it will my last resort no matter how bad I feel. Anyone that knows anything about the actual treatment practise please share your knowledge with me.Your alley in seeking the way out. Our unavoidable empathy, the one blessing of our inexpressable mental pain has linked us for better and for worse, Eric
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:43:12
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » tealady, posted by JLx on September 19, 2003, at 8:12:41
> > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivites to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
Unfortunately, if the label doesn't say, there's no way to know.
> I'm confused about the difference between glutaMINE, glutamatic acid and glutamates....about excitotoxins and excitatory neurotransmitters in general.
Glutamine is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an amine group. So, it's a di-amino acid. Glutamic acid is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an acid group. So, it's an amino di-acid.
Having such similar names is confusing, but chemistry is confusing anyway. ;-)
Lar
Posted by JLx on September 19, 2003, at 11:10:23
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:43:12
> > > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivites to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> Unfortunately, if the label doesn't say, there's no way to know.That was tealady's comment, btw.
>[JL]I'm confused about the difference between glutaMINE, glutamatic acid and glutamates....about excitotoxins and excitatory neurotransmitters in general.
> [Larry] Glutamine is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an amine group. So, it's a di-amino acid. Glutamic acid is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an acid group. So, it's an amino di-acid.Ha! That clarifies things! ;)
Here's my lack of understanding....excitatory neurotransmitters are normal and necessary, are they not? Whereas certain things, such as calcium-in-excess-to-magnesium or glutamates, especially man-made one such as MSG, can be excitotoxins -- something to avoid. If you know you need to avoide excitotoxins -- and do I assume that by my reaction to glutamine? -- what does that mean wrt to the other excitatory neurotransmitters? Since I had such an obvious reaction to glutamine, does that mean I should avoid tyrosine and phenylalanine as well? (Lack of motivation, caring and energy -- not functioning/doing -- is my biggest problem associated with depression.)
I want to experiment with amino acids, which I've done in the past, but now I'm thinking I might have different reactions because of the magnesium supplementation. I've taken glutamine in the past, for instance, and don't recall that it did anything at all. I've taken tyrosine in the past too, and I had the same quick reaction with it that I had with Wellbutrin -- irritability to the point of meanness, like I wanted to kick my dog when she got on my nerves.
I just stumbled across this site, http://www.neuroreplete.com/Site_Map.htm from a physician's site who apparently uses their products for his patients. It's poorly written and who knows who these people are, but this made sense to me:
"Not only does unbalanced or unopposed use of amino acids lead to decreased group performance it also causes depletion of neurotransmitters of the other system. Research has also proved that improperly balanced use of amino acids of the catecholamine and serotonin systems is associated with increased side effects." http://www.neuroreplete.com/bal.htm
About 5-HTP alone, they say:
"10% to 15% of the patients get good results and relief of symptoms. Ten percent to fifteen percent of patients get some relief and about two thirds of the patients obtain no relief. ... L-tyrosine we have found that 3,000 mg per day with 300 mg per day of 5-HTP is an ideal ratio for treatment and has minimal side effects if used properly." http://www.neuroreplete.com/Phenylalanine%20does%20not%20work%20nearly%20as%20well.htm
Those seem like pretty high doses to me. I see they use L-tyrosine over L-Phenylaline, which is the opposite of your own thinking, isn't it? I happen to have some L-tyrosine already, so I think I may try it with 5-HTP as I've not tried any sort of combo before with natural/amino products. Is it advisable to actually take the two things TOGETHER, or just on the same day? I also have some SAM-e I think I will use up, which should also be synergistic/ok to take, right?
I hope you don't mind all the questions. Like many others here, I respect your opinion. :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 20:43:13
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on September 19, 2003, at 11:10:23
> > > > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivites to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
> >
> > Unfortunately, if the label doesn't say, there's no way to know.
>
> That was tealady's comment, btw.Ya, I know. Too lazy to reply twice, is all.
> >[JL]I'm confused about the difference between glutaMINE, glutamatic acid and glutamates....about excitotoxins and excitatory neurotransmitters in general.
> > [Larry] Glutamine is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an amine group. So, it's a di-amino acid. Glutamic acid is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an acid group. So, it's an amino di-acid.
>
> Ha! That clarifies things! ;)Except I forgot to mention that glutamate always refers to glutamic acid. Chemists call the salt of an acid the -ate. So, glutamate is the salt of glutamic acid (i.e. minus a proton, and therefore, no longer acidic).
> Here's my lack of understanding....excitatory neurotransmitters are normal and necessary, are they not?Absolutely, without question.
> Whereas certain things, such as calcium-in-excess-to-magnesium or glutamates, especially man-made one such as MSG, can be excitotoxins -- something to avoid.
It's all a dose/concentration issue, what people often call "balance". Too much or too little are not good. In the middle, the normal zone, is OK.
> If you know you need to avoide excitotoxins -- and do I assume that by my reaction to glutamine? -- what does that mean wrt to the other excitatory neurotransmitters? Since I had such an obvious reaction to glutamine, does that mean I should avoid tyrosine and phenylalanine as well?
Excitatory is rather a global term. It means different things in different contexts. The use of a stimulant drug, methylphenidate, is calming in hyperactivity disorders, presumed to be because there was insufficient activation of an inhibitory system.
> (Lack of motivation, caring and energy -- not functioning/doing -- is my biggest problem associated with depression.)
That symptom pattern seems ideal to try tyrosine/phenylalanine.
> I want to experiment with amino acids, which I've done in the past, but now I'm thinking I might have different reactions because of the magnesium supplementation.
You may, but magnesium is generally a calming influence, though it also increases the activity of certain enzymes. It really requires that you carefully experiment. One change at a time, so you can be reasonably sure that the variable you're manipulating is responsible for any differences in the way you're feeling.
> I've taken glutamine in the past, for instance, and don't recall that it did anything at all. I've taken tyrosine in the past too, and I had the same quick reaction with it that I had with Wellbutrin -- irritability to the point of meanness, like I wanted to kick my dog when she got on my nerves.
Dose is always something to consider, but in light of your prior reaction, try some DLPA. That's the synthetic form of phenylalanine, d-,l-phenylalanine.
> I just stumbled across this site, http://www.neuroreplete.com/Site_Map.htm from a physician's site who apparently uses their products for his patients. It's poorly written and who knows who these people are, but this made sense to me:
>
> "Not only does unbalanced or unopposed use of amino acids lead to decreased group performance it also causes depletion of neurotransmitters of the other system. Research has also proved that improperly balanced use of amino acids of the catecholamine and serotonin systems is associated with increased side effects." http://www.neuroreplete.com/bal.htmThat does seem reasonable. However, I still think it best that you change one variable at a time. If you want to try the calming 5-HTP first, then add the excitatory tyrosine, you can learn about the balance between the two more explicitly than if you start them both at the same time.
> About 5-HTP alone, they say:
>
> "10% to 15% of the patients get good results and relief of symptoms. Ten percent to fifteen percent of patients get some relief and about two thirds of the patients obtain no relief. ... L-tyrosine we have found that 3,000 mg per day with 300 mg per day of 5-HTP is an ideal ratio for treatment and has minimal side effects if used properly." http://www.neuroreplete.com/Phenylalanine%20does%20not%20work%20nearly%20as%20well.htm
>
> Those seem like pretty high doses to me.Pretty high when compared to the doses listed on supplement bottles, but not high when considered in terms of therapeutic dosing.
> I see they use L-tyrosine over L-Phenylaline, which is the opposite of your own thinking, isn't it?
I look at phenylalanine as tyrosine+. Some of the phenylalanine will be converted to tyrosine, but some will do other things that tyrosine can't do.
>I happen to have some L-tyrosine already, so I think I may try it with 5-HTP as I've not tried any sort of combo before with natural/amino products. Is it advisable to actually take the two things TOGETHER, or just on the same day?
I haven't seen any conclusive evidence as to whether or not 5-HTP uses the same transporter as tryptophan requires for uptake into the brain. If so, it would be best to separate the doses. If not, it doesn't matter. I'm afraid I don't know the answer.
> I also have some SAM-e I think I will use up, which should also be synergistic/ok to take, right?
I see no reason not to use them together.
> I hope you don't mind all the questions. Like many others here, I respect your opinion. :)
I like questions. Bring it on....
I appreciate the faith people place in me.
Lar
Posted by JLx on September 20, 2003, at 14:32:30
In reply to Ayehuesca_possibly_miraculous_strange_hopeful, posted by EERRIICC on September 19, 2003, at 8:18:10
If you try this, be sure to let us know how you do. I suspect there may be traditional/ancient remedies that might work, particularly if they are within a cultural context that you adhere to, but personally I would be too chicken to try them! :) It took me years of depression before I would even try an antidepressant because I didn't like the idea of some chemical messing with my brain. I still don't, which is why I'm determined to fine natural remedies nowadays.
Posted by JLx on September 20, 2003, at 17:53:36
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 20:43:13
> You may, but magnesium is generally a calming influence, though it also increases the activity of certain enzymes. It really requires that you carefully experiment. One change at a time, so you can be reasonably sure that the variable you're manipulating is responsible for any differences in the way you're feeling.
I think I was really out of whack before I started supplementing with magnesium which is why I am assuming that everything may act differently in my body now.
> Dose is always something to consider, but in light of your prior reaction, try some DLPA. That's the synthetic form of phenylalanine, d-,l-phenylalanine.I have tried DLPA in the past and didn't think it did anything at all, but I don't remember now what dose I was taking. I just bought some L-Phenylaline before I read this, as it's fairly cheap. What's the difference -- in terms of what it does -- and how important is it that it be DL, rather than just L? (I haven't opened it yet, so I could take it back.)
> That does seem reasonable. However, I still think it best that you change one variable at a time. If you want to try the calming 5-HTP first, then add the excitatory tyrosine, you can learn about the balance between the two more explicitly than if you start them both at the same time.
I know that's good sense, but I am truly desperate to keep my life from sliding any further downhill. I've taken 5-HTP with melatonin (50mg and 1 mg or less respectively) before, off and on for months now, and I found it helpful. So, I am inclined to just jump in in hopes I get more functional, and sort it out later, which was which in terms of effect.
> > "10% to 15% of the patients get good results and relief of symptoms. Ten percent to fifteen percent of patients get some relief and about two thirds of the patients obtain no relief. ... L-tyrosine we have found that 3,000 mg per day with 300 mg per day of 5-HTP is an ideal ratio for treatment and has minimal side effects if used properly." http://www.neuroreplete.com/Phenylalanine%20does%20not%20work%20nearly%20as%20well.htm
> >
> > Those seem like pretty high doses to me.
>
> Pretty high when compared to the doses listed on supplement bottles, but not high when considered in terms of therapeutic dosing.No? Maybe I have been unduly influenced by that Mind Boosters guy, Dr. Ray Sahelian, who seems to recommend quite low doses of everything.
> > I also have some SAM-e I think I will use up, which should also be synergistic/ok to take, right?
>
> I see no reason not to use them together.Ok, I've just purchased an "anti-homocysteine" B-formula with 20 mg B-6 (as p-5-p), B-12 250 mg (cyanocobalamin), folic acid 800 mcg, TMG 400 mg. I bought that for the TMG which otherwise my local health food store didn't stock at all. (I took this this afternoon and didn't feel it, btw.) They didn't have the methylcobalamin form of B-12 or I would have bought that too. I've been taking 1 B-50 complex and additional B-6 as p-5-p 100 mg, 1-2 of the 1,000 mcg regular B-12 as I know they say you don't absorb much of that, and also additional niacinamide 500 mg. I'm wondering if I should take another of the B-50 complex. They're water soluble I know, and I've read that even B-6 is ok to take up to 300 mg a day. But what about folic acid?
With that complex, if I take say, 2 a day, I'm getting 800 mg of folic acid, and if I also take this anti-homocysteine formula, I'll be getting another 400 mg of folic acid. (I almost never eat green veggies, btw, so I probably get zero from my diet.)
I've read that folic acid is deficient in many depressives, but in others, supplementation is contraindicated. I just read your exchange here, for instance: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030402/msgs/215959.html When I did the checklists in "Depression Free Naturally", I didn't come out way-high on the histamine list. I think I am really a very generally-mixed bag when it comes to depression, which is one other reason why I am inclined now to just throw many possible answers at it, in the hopes that they all might work....at least a little, which is maybe all I need....perhaps ALL of them working a LITTLE is exactly what I need. Does that make any sense?
Posted by McPac on September 20, 2003, at 23:57:45
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on September 19, 2003, at 11:10:23
Hi JLx,
Thanks for posting the NeuroReplete link.
Interesting site.
Seems like they give detailed info on certain supps for somebody to try on their own...yet they say something to the effect that only those medical personnel who have been trained by the NeuroResearch folks get the desired results..something like that...there was a poster on the Babble board who "swore" by this very approach..looks interesting to me.
Posted by McPac on September 21, 2003, at 0:18:53
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 20:43:13
Lar,
...been meaning to ask you something and now, since there's a thread about amino acids, here goes: I've always wondered why Pfeiffer doesn't have me on ANY aminos?? As this NeuroReplete site EMPHASIZES aminos in building neurotransmitters (Carl Pfeiffer & William Walsh have said the SAME), I can't figure out why I'm on none? Also, it has always, right from the beginning, seemed to me that Pfeiffer has me on such a "WEAK" and lame treatment program. Severe depression/ocd/anxiety (when I'm ON meds I'm MUCH, MUCH better!)---how is weak stuff like Vitamins A, C, D, E, B6, B12, TMG, methionine, calcium, magnesium, etc---how is THAT stuff going to greatly affect those major problems? The only thing that I can surmise is that the whole shibang is all about getting my histamine level down (whenever THAT might occur!)...in other words, they're not really trying to give me supps that will help the depression short term (like 5htp, tryptophan, SJW, etc.), rather they are SOLELY concerned about getting the histamine down, even if that takes a LONG, LONG time and THEN they are hoping that THAT will result in my improvement. That's what it seems like to me......their communication w/ patients sucks.....later Lar! p.s., Lar, that God-forsaken Winter season will soon be here...ugghhhhh....I recall you saying that you too disliked the long, dark, sunless winter season...anyway, take care Hoover-man!
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 7:04:20
In reply to Re: Amino acids/B vitamins, posted by JLx on September 20, 2003, at 17:53:36
> > You may, but magnesium is generally a calming influence, though it also increases the activity of certain enzymes. It really requires that you carefully experiment. One change at a time, so you can be reasonably sure that the variable you're manipulating is responsible for any differences in the way you're feeling.
>
> I think I was really out of whack before I started supplementing with magnesium which is why I am assuming that everything may act differently in my body now.That's a valid hypothesis.
> > Dose is always something to consider, but in light of your prior reaction, try some DLPA. That's the synthetic form of phenylalanine, d-,l-phenylalanine.
>
> I have tried DLPA in the past and didn't think it did anything at all, but I don't remember now what dose I was taking. I just bought some L-Phenylaline before I read this, as it's fairly cheap. What's the difference -- in terms of what it does -- and how important is it that it be DL, rather than just L? (I haven't opened it yet, so I could take it back.)The d-isomer cannot go towards tyrosine, so all of it gets "diverted" towards the alternative products unique to phenylalanine, such as phenylethylamine (PEA). Also, there is good evidence that the d-isomer inhibits the breakdown of endorphins (your natural opiate-receptor ligands).
> > That does seem reasonable. However, I still think it best that you change one variable at a time. If you want to try the calming 5-HTP first, then add the excitatory tyrosine, you can learn about the balance between the two more explicitly than if you start them both at the same time.
>
> I know that's good sense, but I am truly desperate to keep my life from sliding any further downhill. I've taken 5-HTP with melatonin (50mg and 1 mg or less respectively) before, off and on for months now, and I found it helpful.
So, I am inclined to just jump in in hopes I get more functional, and sort it out later, which was which in terms of effect.I hear ya. That's a rational response to an urgent need.
> > > "10% to 15% of the patients get good results and relief of symptoms. Ten percent to fifteen percent of patients get some relief and about two thirds of the patients obtain no relief. ... L-tyrosine we have found that 3,000 mg per day with 300 mg per day of 5-HTP is an ideal ratio for treatment and has minimal side effects if used properly." http://www.neuroreplete.com/Phenylalanine%20does%20not%20work%20nearly%20as%20well.htm
> > >
> > > Those seem like pretty high doses to me.
> >
> > Pretty high when compared to the doses listed on supplement bottles, but not high when considered in terms of therapeutic dosing.
>
> No? Maybe I have been unduly influenced by that Mind Boosters guy, Dr. Ray Sahelian, who seems to recommend quite low doses of everything.Remember, he's well. He's looking at the enhancement of normal functioning, IMHO. He's very conservative in his recommendations, even for a proponent of supps.
> > > I also have some SAM-e I think I will use up, which should also be synergistic/ok to take, right?
> >
> > I see no reason not to use them together.
>
> Ok, I've just purchased an "anti-homocysteine" B-formula with 20 mg B-6 (as p-5-p), B-12 250 mg (cyanocobalamin), folic acid 800 mcg, TMG 400 mg. I bought that for the TMG which otherwise my local health food store didn't stock at all. (I took this this afternoon and didn't feel it, btw.) They didn't have the methylcobalamin form of B-12 or I would have bought that too. I've been taking 1 B-50 complex and additional B-6 as p-5-p 100 mg, 1-2 of the 1,000 mcg regular B-12 as I know they say you don't absorb much of that, and also additional niacinamide 500 mg. I'm wondering if I should take another of the B-50 complex. They're water soluble I know, and I've read that even B-6 is ok to take up to 300 mg a day. But what about folic acid?I wouldn't worry about the folate. Rather than taking more B-50, try taking multiples of the TMG-containing pills.
> With that complex, if I take say, 2 a day, I'm getting 800 mg of folic acid, and if I also take this anti-homocysteine formula, I'll be getting another 400 mg of folic acid. (I almost never eat green veggies, btw, so I probably get zero from my diet.)There's a lot of good stuff in green veggies. Get yourself some Greens+. It's supposed to have a lot of the veggie goodness in it.
> I've read that folic acid is deficient in many depressives, but in others, supplementation is contraindicated. I just read your exchange here, for instance: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030402/msgs/215959.html When I did the checklists in "Depression Free Naturally", I didn't come out way-high on the histamine list. I think I am really a very generally-mixed bag when it comes to depression, which is one other reason why I am inclined now to just throw many possible answers at it, in the hopes that they all might work....at least a little, which is maybe all I need....perhaps ALL of them working a LITTLE is exactly what I need. Does that make any sense?Yes, it makes sense. I don't agree with the contraindications given on that website. Instead, I believe in the synergy of multiple interventions. The problem is, some of the interventions I've tried have been useless, and others have been too strong. It can take a long time figure it all out, and we're all unique. But, if you're struggling psychologically, then I fully support your decision to just go for it.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 7:11:40
In reply to Lar, Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids, posted by McPac on September 21, 2003, at 0:18:53
> Lar,
>
> ...been meaning to ask you something and now, since there's a thread about amino acids, here goes: I've always wondered why Pfeiffer doesn't have me on ANY aminos??I thought you were taking methionine.
> As this NeuroReplete site EMPHASIZES aminos in building neurotransmitters (Carl Pfeiffer & William Walsh have said the SAME), I can't figure out why I'm on none?
No tyrosine or phenylalanine? I forget, dude.
> Also, it has always, right from the beginning, seemed to me that Pfeiffer has me on such a "WEAK" and lame treatment program. Severe depression/ocd/anxiety (when I'm ON meds I'm MUCH, MUCH better!)---how is weak stuff like Vitamins A, C, D, E, B6, B12, TMG, methionine, calcium, magnesium, etc---how is THAT stuff going to greatly affect those major problems?
Over time, those treatments can make a substantial difference. You're one big, complicated, biochemical factory. Whatever is messed up, and whatever it is that meds do, it's all about making adjustments. Five years ago, I was near catatonic. Totally, utterly overwhelmed by depression. I'm not any more. I'm not medicated, either. And I believe, with all my heart and soul and intellect, that it was nutrient supplementation that changed all that.
You may not have a similar response. I can't promise you anything of the sort. It's a gradual restoration of functioning, one that can be so subtle as to be not be observable. But over more extended periods of time, the trend is unmistakeable.
>The only thing that I can surmise is that the whole shibang is all about getting my histamine level down (whenever THAT might occur!)...in other words, they're not really trying to give me supps that will help the depression short term (like 5htp, tryptophan, SJW, etc.), rather they are SOLELY concerned about getting the histamine down, even if that takes a LONG, LONG time and THEN they are hoping that THAT will result in my improvement. That's what it seems like to me......their communication w/ patients sucks.....later Lar!
Go ahead and try some aminos. You've nothing to lose, other than your symptoms. <wry grin>
> p.s., Lar, that God-forsaken Winter season will soon be here...ugghhhhh....I recall you saying that you too disliked the long, dark, sunless winter season...anyway, take care Hoover-man!
Yes, I have always had a significant seasonal trend. I've got my fingers crossed.
Lar
Posted by JLx on September 21, 2003, at 8:32:43
In reply to JLx, Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids, posted by McPac on September 20, 2003, at 23:57:45
> Hi JLx,
>
> Thanks for posting the NeuroReplete link.
> Interesting site.
> Seems like they give detailed info on certain supps for somebody to try on their own...yet they say something to the effect that only those medical personnel who have been trained by the NeuroResearch folks get the desired results..something like that...there was a poster on the Babble board who "swore" by this very approach..looks interesting to me.Yes, it's frustrating that they don't sell their products directly, but we can glean some info from their contents at least. I was wondering if perhaps they only sell through docs so they can get clinical feedback to constantly update their data base, which is the basis for the forumulas and testing, I gathered.
Here is some of their competition. http://www.neuroscienceinc.com/index.html Less info, but this is interesting:
"We have found that patients respond much more favorably to neurotransmitter optimization if interventions that improve synthesis of serotonin are first. This is related to the network of interaction between serotonin, GABA, and the catecholamines. This is especially true of patients who are significantly deficient in serotonin as they are more likely to experience discomfort or anxiety when given supplements that preferentially act upon the catecholamines."
They wait two weeks before adding the catecholamine-affecting agents. I might rethink my own strategy based on that and just take 5-HTP alone for a while before adding the tyrosine/phenylalaline.
One of their links also led to this site, which is not one I've seen before: http://www.neurotransmitter.net/index.html Looks like he's done a lot of work reorganizing info on available studies...nicely updated too.
Here's another site, (from an article linked on the previous one) that I haven't seen before: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html It's nice to see that at least SOME docs out there are taking time on the details.
Posted by JLx on September 21, 2003, at 8:53:58
In reply to Lar, Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids, posted by McPac on September 21, 2003, at 0:18:53
Have you tried light therapy? I have a light visor, and found that sometimes it was the ONLY way I could get my sleep halfway regulated in the winter. Sometimes I thought it helped with depression too, sometimes not, but overall, at least some. (It's also possible that the light BOX might be better than the visor like I have.)
But now I am wondering if the "sometimes not" might have been because I was using it too late in the morning. I just read this page re that info: http://www.psycheducation.org/PCP/launch/light.htm
I took the questionnare of "lark" or "owl" he links to here: http://www.cet.org/AutoMEQ.htm
Very interesting. My results came out "intermediate", probably because I'm not working so I couldn't answer some of those questions pertaining to a work/weekend day very accurately. I've also been making a very conscious effort to go to bed early -- and using 5-HTP/melatonin to do so -- since I read a book about cortisol and how the time between ten p.m. and midnight is the most "golden" for lowering cortisol. I believe I can feel the difference too, when I manage to get to sleep that early.
One of the things I have experienced in middle age is a transition from being a definite nightowl (and never getting enough sleep when I had to get up early to get to work on time) to a morning person. This is convenient, and coincided with seeming to "need less sleep", so I thought it was a good thing. After reading "The Cortisol Connection" though, apparently it's simply due to increased cortisol all the time and an impairment in the optimal daily rhythm of how it should rise and fall relative to sleep. He flat out says that for optimal cortisol, everyone needs 8 hours sleep.
Something I haven't tried, but would if I had the money, is one of those special lights that wake you up gradually -- mimicking natural light. This, according to some people, also helps with winter blues. They cost about $200, or I also found a guy who makes just a regulator that you use with a normal lamp, that is supposed to do the same thing, that was $80. I have some links bookmarked about light boxes and these clocks, if you're interested.
Posted by JLx on September 21, 2003, at 9:03:23
In reply to Re: Amino acids/B vitamins » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 7:04:20
> The d-isomer cannot go towards tyrosine, so all of it gets "diverted" towards the alternative products unique to phenylalanine, such as phenylethylamine (PEA). Also, there is good evidence that the d-isomer inhibits the breakdown of endorphins (your natural opiate-receptor ligands).
Ok, thanks.
> Remember, he's well. He's looking at the enhancement of normal functioning, IMHO. He's very conservative in his recommendations, even for a proponent of supps.Good point! I suspect that much of the feedback that he gets from people, which he often reports on his site too, is from folks like him.
> I wouldn't worry about the folate. Rather than taking more B-50, try taking multiples of the TMG-containing pills.
Didn't think of that, thanks. :)
> Yes, it makes sense. I don't agree with the contraindications given on that website. Instead, I believe in the synergy of multiple interventions. The problem is, some of the interventions I've tried have been useless, and others have been too strong. It can take a long time figure it all out, and we're all unique. But, if you're struggling psychologically, then I fully support your decision to just go for it.
Unfortunately, something is giving me heartburn, now I have to figure out what.
Thanks for your help! :)
Posted by McPac on September 21, 2003, at 22:28:22
In reply to Re: Amino acids/B vitamins » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 7:04:20
Lar, you may want to wring my neck for my asking this again.....it has to do with Pfeiffer telling me NO folic acid supps......I've read so many studies citing folic acid as beneficial in IMPROVING folks' depression...yet Pfeiffer is concerned with folic acid building histamine levels, which is why they say I can't take it....question: Is it that you don't think that folic acid builds histamine OR is it that you don't think that high histamine causes depression/ocd? (Of course, I do have depression/ocd and very high histamine. The high histamine MAY contribute to the dep/ocd OR it may be purely coincidental...they think the high histamine may well have a lot to do with the dep/ocd...which is why they want to lower my histamine levels and have me AVOID folic acid...I can't remember why it was that you didn't agree with the folic acid thingy? (They say the same about niacin too). Also, I forgot, they do have me on methionine (an amino)....but they certainly aren't stressing building neurotransmitters via aminos like the site JLx posted about AND also like Carl Pfeiffer & William Walsh themselves write about..no, they don't have me on any tyrosine or phenylalanine, just the methionine, mainly for histamine reduction....I would have thought for sure that they'd have me on some worthwhile aminos for building neurotransmitters....take care Lar!
Posted by McPac on September 21, 2003, at 22:33:28
In reply to Re: Winter blues/light therapy » McPac, posted by JLx on September 21, 2003, at 8:53:58
I sent an e-mail to the NeuroReplete folks....I'd like to go to one of these clinics that follow their recommendations and testing procedures (I read that the neurotransmitter testing was something like $85...I'm sure the whole process would be much more of course)...but I'm very interested in their ideas. As for the light therapies, I may try that someday...take care!
Posted by McPac on September 22, 2003, at 21:01:10
In reply to Magnesium Miracle Revisited, posted by JLx on September 18, 2003, at 20:42:54
JLx,
I've searched high and low to find a Liquid calcium/magnesium supp. in a 1:1 ratio in absorbable forms---incredibly hard to find, even on the 'net! Every place loves selling that garbage mag. oxide and that junk calc. carbonate...sooooo hard to find good forms of both in a liquid combo w/ 1:1 ratio (closest I've found is a liquid calc/magn. combo, both being in lactate form, but in a 2:1 ratio...that's as good as it gets)...I've never seen glycinate in a liquid form (or taurate either I don't think).....I'm sick of trying to choke down all these supps I have to take...the mag. glycinate tablets are big and make me gag...I'll pay more to take liquids, sick of gagging on sooo many supps every day....have you come across any good liquid calc/mag combos? Hey, also, I'm looking into that Neuro site that you posted about...they are gonna get back w/ me about trying to find me a place nearby to go to for that....later and take care!!!!
Posted by JLx on September 23, 2003, at 6:30:12
In reply to JLx, Re: Magnesium Miracle Revisited, posted by McPac on September 22, 2003, at 21:01:10
I hear ya. I don't mind the taking-handfuls-of-pills aspect so much as keeping track of taking what when and not with each other, such as "don't take magnesium with probiotics", "don't take magnesium with high fat meals", and with food or without? Carolyn Dean, M.D. in "The Miracle of Magnesium" said to take it on an empty stomach, but I think this increases my likelihood of having it cause diarrhea.
Perhaps I am confused about magnesium AND calcium also. My understanding of what I've read, mostly from Eby's site, is that the magnesium and calcium combos are to increase absorption/effectiveness of the CALCIUM, and that much of the magnesium is "undone" so to speak, by the presence of the calcium. So, if you want magnesium and its effects, then it should be taken separately. Wrong?
One thing I've tried is the liquid laxative version of magnesium citrate like you find in any drugstore, because I didn't see why it wouldn't be the same as what's in the mag citrate supplements and it's very cheap. The bottle says, "Active ingredient: magnesium citrate 1.745 gr/fl oz", so I just put a small amount like that in my daily water jug. Unfortunately, it also has saccharin and sucrose in it, which I thought set off my sugar-addiction, but maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance -- I only tried it twice -- because it seems like there would be a very small amount of each in only one ounce.
Then I started making magnesium laced lemonade with Epsom salts, glycine and sweetened with stevia. My "recipe" is one bottle of frozen Minute Maid lemon juice + the juice of one fresh lemon, approx. 40 oz of distilled water, 2 rounded half teaspoons (which happened to be the only measuring spoon I could lay my hands on! :))of Epsom salt, one rounded half teaspoon of glycine and stevia to taste. The kind of stevia I buy is stevia glycerite, liquid, and I use 4-7 droppers, depending on how much is in each dropperful. According to George Eby on his site, one rounded teaspoon of Epsom Salt is 1 gram of magnesium. I added the glycine to make it be more like magnesium glycinate. I started doing this to save money on the magnesium -- and then it dawned on me that I was spending $2 a day on the lemon juice!
I'm thinking of trying cherry juice next, if it's cheaper or just choking it down without any flavoring as this liquid version of magnesium feels pretty good to me. If I space it out throughout the day, drinking only a half cup or so at at time, I don't get diarrhea.
> JLx,
> I've searched high and low to find a Liquid calcium/magnesium supp. in a 1:1 ratio in absorbable forms---incredibly hard to find, even on the 'net! Every place loves selling that garbage mag. oxide and that junk calc. carbonate...sooooo hard to find good forms of both in a liquid combo w/ 1:1 ratio (closest I've found is a liquid calc/magn. combo, both being in lactate form, but in a 2:1 ratio...that's as good as it gets)...I've never seen glycinate in a liquid form (or taurate either I don't think).....I'm sick of trying to choke down all these supps I have to take...the mag. glycinate tablets are big and make me gag...I'll pay more to take liquids, sick of gagging on sooo many supps every day....have you come across any good liquid calc/mag combos? Hey, also, I'm looking into that Neuro site that you posted about...they are gonna get back w/ me about trying to find me a place nearby to go to for that....later and take care!!!!
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