Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 20:43:13
In reply to Re: Female Hormones/Excitotoxins/Amino acids » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on September 19, 2003, at 11:10:23
> > > > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivites to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
> >
> > Unfortunately, if the label doesn't say, there's no way to know.
>
> That was tealady's comment, btw.Ya, I know. Too lazy to reply twice, is all.
> >[JL]I'm confused about the difference between glutaMINE, glutamatic acid and glutamates....about excitotoxins and excitatory neurotransmitters in general.
> > [Larry] Glutamine is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an amine group. So, it's a di-amino acid. Glutamic acid is an amino acid with an added side chain that terminates in an acid group. So, it's an amino di-acid.
>
> Ha! That clarifies things! ;)Except I forgot to mention that glutamate always refers to glutamic acid. Chemists call the salt of an acid the -ate. So, glutamate is the salt of glutamic acid (i.e. minus a proton, and therefore, no longer acidic).
> Here's my lack of understanding....excitatory neurotransmitters are normal and necessary, are they not?Absolutely, without question.
> Whereas certain things, such as calcium-in-excess-to-magnesium or glutamates, especially man-made one such as MSG, can be excitotoxins -- something to avoid.
It's all a dose/concentration issue, what people often call "balance". Too much or too little are not good. In the middle, the normal zone, is OK.
> If you know you need to avoide excitotoxins -- and do I assume that by my reaction to glutamine? -- what does that mean wrt to the other excitatory neurotransmitters? Since I had such an obvious reaction to glutamine, does that mean I should avoid tyrosine and phenylalanine as well?
Excitatory is rather a global term. It means different things in different contexts. The use of a stimulant drug, methylphenidate, is calming in hyperactivity disorders, presumed to be because there was insufficient activation of an inhibitory system.
> (Lack of motivation, caring and energy -- not functioning/doing -- is my biggest problem associated with depression.)
That symptom pattern seems ideal to try tyrosine/phenylalanine.
> I want to experiment with amino acids, which I've done in the past, but now I'm thinking I might have different reactions because of the magnesium supplementation.
You may, but magnesium is generally a calming influence, though it also increases the activity of certain enzymes. It really requires that you carefully experiment. One change at a time, so you can be reasonably sure that the variable you're manipulating is responsible for any differences in the way you're feeling.
> I've taken glutamine in the past, for instance, and don't recall that it did anything at all. I've taken tyrosine in the past too, and I had the same quick reaction with it that I had with Wellbutrin -- irritability to the point of meanness, like I wanted to kick my dog when she got on my nerves.
Dose is always something to consider, but in light of your prior reaction, try some DLPA. That's the synthetic form of phenylalanine, d-,l-phenylalanine.
> I just stumbled across this site, http://www.neuroreplete.com/Site_Map.htm from a physician's site who apparently uses their products for his patients. It's poorly written and who knows who these people are, but this made sense to me:
>
> "Not only does unbalanced or unopposed use of amino acids lead to decreased group performance it also causes depletion of neurotransmitters of the other system. Research has also proved that improperly balanced use of amino acids of the catecholamine and serotonin systems is associated with increased side effects." http://www.neuroreplete.com/bal.htmThat does seem reasonable. However, I still think it best that you change one variable at a time. If you want to try the calming 5-HTP first, then add the excitatory tyrosine, you can learn about the balance between the two more explicitly than if you start them both at the same time.
> About 5-HTP alone, they say:
>
> "10% to 15% of the patients get good results and relief of symptoms. Ten percent to fifteen percent of patients get some relief and about two thirds of the patients obtain no relief. ... L-tyrosine we have found that 3,000 mg per day with 300 mg per day of 5-HTP is an ideal ratio for treatment and has minimal side effects if used properly." http://www.neuroreplete.com/Phenylalanine%20does%20not%20work%20nearly%20as%20well.htm
>
> Those seem like pretty high doses to me.Pretty high when compared to the doses listed on supplement bottles, but not high when considered in terms of therapeutic dosing.
> I see they use L-tyrosine over L-Phenylaline, which is the opposite of your own thinking, isn't it?
I look at phenylalanine as tyrosine+. Some of the phenylalanine will be converted to tyrosine, but some will do other things that tyrosine can't do.
>I happen to have some L-tyrosine already, so I think I may try it with 5-HTP as I've not tried any sort of combo before with natural/amino products. Is it advisable to actually take the two things TOGETHER, or just on the same day?
I haven't seen any conclusive evidence as to whether or not 5-HTP uses the same transporter as tryptophan requires for uptake into the brain. If so, it would be best to separate the doses. If not, it doesn't matter. I'm afraid I don't know the answer.
> I also have some SAM-e I think I will use up, which should also be synergistic/ok to take, right?
I see no reason not to use them together.
> I hope you don't mind all the questions. Like many others here, I respect your opinion. :)
I like questions. Bring it on....
I appreciate the faith people place in me.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:261480
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261765.html