![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 153 to 177 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 12:49:10
In reply to Would it help to remember » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 12:37:18
And possibly should have kept my big mouth shut.
I'm sorry if my attempt to encourage hopelessness caused anyone any pain. Hopelessness, in some situations, has served me well.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 16:22:49
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 12:19:43
> The funny thing is that the people who are most angry now seem to be among the people who are most predisposed to feel positively towards you and the civility guidelines.
It doesn't seem funny to me.
I wonder if the converse is also true?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 9, 2013, at 17:11:44
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Willful on July 3, 2013, at 10:36:17
> ;;;; It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere....
> >
> > Bob
>
>
> Yet you seem not to grasp how much energy it takes for those of us here to "battle" Lou's insistence on riding to the "rescue" of every new poster on psychobabble who asks about new meds, or a change of meds, or worse yet, frustration with meds.
>
> I personally am ***** (redacted by respondent) weary of reading Lou's posts and summoning the patience and swallowing the annoyance of trying yet again to engage with them, to be cool in the face of them, to answer some of his picaresque assertions-- so that perhaps yet another new poster win out and be "strong" enough to hang on, and possibly be a new member of our community.
>
> Because YES, I WOULD like new members to join our community. I would like psychobabble to continue to exist-- to be a part of the conversation-- for us to try to support and give as much info to those who find themselves here as we can.
>
> I did not sign up to struggle daily with Lou-as-Poster's misinformation, distortions, exaggerations, threats, warnings, and mischaracterizations of those who use and who prescribe meds.
>
> We all want psychobabble to be a supportive, thoughtful, flexible community. Flexible is one thing-- but extremists threaten that-- and all of those things-- while the conversation is poisoned by their interventions.
>
> Lou-as-Poster may seem himself as some sort of martyred avatar of the true religion and the Right Way-- but I don't want him saving me or anyone else.
>
> Is it about Lou or Lou's posts? I don't even care. Yes, I would say theoretically it's not about Lou the person, but Lou-as-Poster-- about a voice that has become ever more vituperative and insulting to those who critique its approach and claims.
>
> Do you read that voice's posts carefully, studying its assertions, with the sense that you need to pin them down, answer them, to find and to quote yet another study, to search down elusive (or nonexistent) information, and to reach out to the last object of its ministrations? Do you feel a burden of trying to go through the same old debate, iteration after iteration. Do you feel a sense of weariness and dread asits name appears yet again in a thread?
>
> I note your posts like to be pithy, and witty, and to raise yet another "profound" question as if from outside, while we mortals continue the old struggle.. You say it exhausts you? Well this all exhausts me. And bores me, and feels like being stuck. And being stuck is the one of the worst thing you can feel in therapy or life.
>
> Willful
>
> W,
I do not like what I read here in your post about me. I want to settle this once and for all. I will meet you at noon tomorrow, CST, in a thread at the bottom of this page to debate what you have posted about me here.
I want to limit the debate to those that register in the thread provided at the bottom of this page. Those that will want to be on my side of the debate, please register also in that thread.
Lou
>
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 17:41:23
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 16:22:49
I don't know. Is it true for you? I hope you aren't hurt again.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 9, 2013, at 17:48:33
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Willful on July 3, 2013, at 10:36:17
> ;;;; It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere....
> >
> > Bob
>
>
> Yet you seem not to grasp how much energy it takes for those of us here to "battle" Lou's insistence on riding to the "rescue" of every new poster on psychobabble who asks about new meds, or a change of meds, or worse yet, frustration with meds.
>
> I personally am ***** (redacted by respondent) weary of reading Lou's posts and summoning the patience and swallowing the annoyance of trying yet again to engage with them, to be cool in the face of them, to answer some of his picaresque assertions-- so that perhaps yet another new poster win out and be "strong" enough to hang on, and possibly be a new member of our community.
>
> Because YES, I WOULD like new members to join our community. I would like psychobabble to continue to exist-- to be a part of the conversation-- for us to try to support and give as much info to those who find themselves here as we can.
>
> I did not sign up to struggle daily with Lou-as-Poster's misinformation, distortions, exaggerations, threats, warnings, and mischaracterizations of those who use and who prescribe meds.
>
> We all want psychobabble to be a supportive, thoughtful, flexible community. Flexible is one thing-- but extremists threaten that-- and all of those things-- while the conversation is poisoned by their interventions.
>
> Lou-as-Poster may seem himself as some sort of martyred avatar of the true religion and the Right Way-- but I don't want him saving me or anyone else.
>
> Is it about Lou or Lou's posts? I don't even care. Yes, I would say theoretically it's not about Lou the person, but Lou-as-Poster-- about a voice that has become ever more vituperative and insulting to those who critique its approach and claims.
>
> Do you read that voice's posts carefully, studying its assertions, with the sense that you need to pin them down, answer them, to find and to quote yet another study, to search down elusive (or nonexistent) information, and to reach out to the last object of its ministrations? Do you feel a burden of trying to go through the same old debate, iteration after iteration. Do you feel a sense of weariness and dread asits name appears yet again in a thread?
>
> I note your posts like to be pithy, and witty, and to raise yet another "profound" question as if from outside, while we mortals continue the old struggle.. You say it exhausts you? Well this all exhausts me. And bores me, and feels like being stuck. And being stuck is the one of the worst thing you can feel in therapy or life.
>
> Willful
>
> W,
You wrote,[...Lou as Poster's misinformation, distortions, exaggerations, threats warnings and mischaracterizations of those who use and prescribe meds...].
What you wrote that could be considered to be about what I post here, could have the potential to harm my reputation, decrease the respect, regard or confidence in which I am held and induce disparging, hostile or disagreeable opinions or feelings against me. I want you to list the posts involved so that I can post a response to you.
Lou
>
Posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:01:04
In reply to Re: please be civil » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 17:41:23
I expect I will be hurt again. I can deal with that. I hope I'm not *as hurt* again. I... Don't think that I will be. Partly, I'm not as vulnerable as I once was. Partly, the boards aren't as unwieldy as they once were.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:02:31
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:01:04
I am glad you are here, Dinah. I miss you. You have helped and supported me (and of course countless others) over the years. I feel very honored to have gotten to know you. I hate past tense. I certainly hope you stick around.
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 18:10:25
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:02:31
Thanks, Alex. I'm glad you're back here. And I'm glad to hear you aren't as vulnerable now.
My vulnerability tends to ebb and flow. I don't think I'd ever consider myself safe from pain here. I don't think I care so much now, and that helps.
Posted by Partlycloudy on August 9, 2013, at 18:19:43
In reply to Probably should change subject » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 18:10:25
> Thanks, Alex. I'm glad you're back here. And I'm glad to hear you aren't as vulnerable now.
>
> My vulnerability tends to ebb and flow. I don't think I'd ever consider myself safe from pain here. I don't think I care so much now, and that helps.
I have really tried to become more dispassionate and neutral about this site, and more grateful for the benefits. I don't think this board will get much participation from me. That's a good thing.
PC
Posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:20:19
In reply to Probably should change subject » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 18:10:25
if we never felt pain we would live very short lives indeed. our limbs would fall off from lack of blood flow etc.
and as for psychopaths who never get attached... e.g., i realized that if my parents died i wouldn't really care or even miss them... well... while sometimes it tempts me to desire it... or (perhaps even more so) for the removal of concern more like autism... i suppose... really... i'm glad i have the ability to emotionally connect with others (some of them sometimes) for all the hurt... yeah.
i'm not sure what it is... probably i'm in a relatively good space today. tomorrow i'll be back to ranting about the awfulness of the world before falling into a state of helpless collapse. sigh.
sigh.
i feel happy that babble is more of a small group now. but... i remember you never were particularly keen on that. it seems like more... what babble *used to be*. back... before either of us arrived, even. back to that. where Bob was able to be more interactive. but... i think some people don't much like him being more interactive. prefer him not to be. so it is hard. different posters always. different preferences. different desires. different needs. so many rocks and hard places. i guess some of us get to flower sometimes?
f*ck*d if i know what i'm talking about...
i like telling you to please be civil.
how does it feel???? ahaha. i jest.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:21:38
In reply to Re: Probably should change subject » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on August 9, 2013, at 18:19:43
aw. i've missed you too. i wonder about susan47... and jai. jai narayan. i wonder what happened to jai... i remember she used to complain about being old. i hope that is still the case.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 19:13:55
In reply to Re: Probably should change subject, posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:20:19
and dead wood. something something about dead wood. surely.
Posted by HomelyCygnet on August 9, 2013, at 19:27:31
In reply to It is gone far beyond theorectical now, Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on June 30, 2013, at 11:37:12
Restoring original title to maintain integrity of thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 10, 2013, at 1:53:06
In reply to I tried not to do this, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2013, at 12:49:10
> I felt very hurt by your words and lashed out. I expect 10der and Twinleaf may have felt hurt as well. I think maybe we don't feel heard or respected. I would hate to see this all snowball.
>
> Perhaps you could remember that those who stuck by you so loyally weren't in on your decision to change, and are confused and hurt by your decisions. I *think* that they are more likely to respond well to a frank and open discussion about what you intend for Babble, even if there is no agreement.I'd also hate for this to snowball. That's one reason I posted the PBC. People are more likely to be heard and respected if they're civil.
I understand that change is hard for everyone. I've been trying to discuss this change frankly and openly.
> all I can *do* to change anything is to distance myself when I can't like what is happening. Other people may be able to achieve a wider range of emotional response.
>
> Butting my head against the solid rock of Bob and expecting anything but a sore head hurts no one but me.
>
> Have no hope. Hope hurts.> I'm sorry if my attempt to encourage hopelessness caused anyone any pain. Hopelessness, in some situations, has served me well.
On the one hand, you could say I was encouraging hopelessness myself by reposting Tabitha's post. OTOH, you could also frame "hopelessness" as the serenity to accept the things you cannot change.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 10, 2013, at 5:52:46
In reply to Re: Oversight., posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 17:07:30
> I am not a regular poster here anymore sadly, so I don't feel competent to give you the details you request. One specific I am familiar with is obtaining restraining orders at work for my clients who are harassed by others. It seems to me that regardless of intention Lou often harasses posters who seek advice regarding psychotropic medication with his strident beliefs about these meds. His associations between parents treating children and infanticide is agregiously hurtful. Orders of Protection in my world last 4 years and unfortunately have limited effect in protecting victims from people with little regard for the law. Blocks have been effective here when used judiciously, consistently and as a last resort. I would hope that there would be means of involving the community in this process though I'm afraid I can't offer a suitable model off the top of my head.
Toph,
You wrote,[...Lou often harrasses..his association between parents treating children and infanticide..].
You have posted here about me. What you have written about me could harm my reputation and induce disagreeable opinions and feelings about me for what you wrote could be thought to be true unless you post the URLs to the posts that you use to make such claimes about me here so that I could have the opportunity to post my response to you.
There is no association between infanticide and parents treating children posted by me. The word infanticide concerns new-born children killed usually at birth. The subject was not about new-born children here killled at birth, and the fact that some members here are ignorant of the meaning of the word infanticide, does not mean that it was my intention to mean the poster or the poster's child who was a teenager, not an infant. The aspect of the use of the ancient concept to justify infanticide, which is that the state is doing what will be good for the whole by killing the infants that do not meet the state's criteria to live, is what was in question if you examine that thread that you are referring to. The justification is only in the murderer's minds, which means that the murderers can overule their crime on the basis that what is right or wrong is not the criteria for murderering, but what will be good for the community as a whole is their criteria. Since those that use that mind-set to justify murder of infants do not know what will happen in the future, even if it was not good for he commmunity as a whole to murder infants as found out later, they can still justify in their minds that they did right, even though children were murdererd. So right and wrong in the minds of those that say that they can commit genocide, infanticide, segregation, slavery and discrimination on the grounds that even though people are murdered or abused, it will be good for the community as a whole to murder infants, commit genocide, slavery or segregation and discrimination, that type of thinking has been ruled in the past to be a crime against humanity. And when convicted war-criminals were given their last chance to speak while they stood on the gallows, many said that they did was what would be good for their country. They justified mass-murder in their minds to their deaths. I thought that type of thinking was eradicated years ago. And when it raises it's head anyware, I'll be there. And when people post here about me, I'll be there. And when people try to justify discrimination on the basis that it will be good for their communty as a whole, I'll be there. And it has been revealed to me that there will be a day when those murdered, those enslaved, those discriminated upon by those that justified their murdering and slavery and discrimination on the basis that they were doing what would be good for their community as a whole, that they will be confronted by those that they murdererd, by those that they enslaved, by those that they abused by discriminating upon them, and they will see them one more time again, to see that their lives were more valuable then what the murderers and the slave owners and those that abused their power to discriminate, put ahead of their lives and took their lives and their souls. And in That Day when those murders, those slave owners, those using their power to discriminate, have their chance to speak to those that they abused, I'll be there. And I see you, my friend, posting this (expeltive) about me here. I see that I do not have the opportunity to respond to your (expletive) about me unless you post the URls of the posts that you used to post what you have about me here. I want them posted so that I can post my response to you.
Lou
Posted by Partlycloudy on August 10, 2013, at 7:25:17
In reply to Re: Probably should change subject, posted by alexandra_k on August 9, 2013, at 18:21:38
> aw. i've missed you too. i wonder about susan47... and jai. jai narayan. i wonder what happened to jai... i remember she used to complain about being old. i hope that is still the case.
So many people have simply moved on. I have never completely let go, lurking here. I think I can't get involved in Administrative issues because they rile me up so much. I get thrown into a state of responding to the situation that is way out of proportion.
It doesn't mean I don't care. I finally figured out what was making me ill about the site. That and putting all the responsibility on Dr Bob's shoulders.
PC
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 10, 2013, at 8:08:43
In reply to Irony, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 9:48:09
> The really sad part of this is that most of the people I see recently saying things that might be hurtful to Lou, myself included, don't want to hurt Lou at all. We'd happily include Lou as part of the community. But things like including "infanticide" in the subject line, and other incidents of exaggeration, over-generalization, and accusation, are things that ought to be addressed by Bob, so that the posters can be in relative amity with each other.
>
> IMO, that is part of what it means to be an administrator.D,
You wrote,[...infanticide...other incidents of exaggeration, overgeneralization and accusation...]
You have used me as the subject person here. What you posted about me could induce hostile opinions and feelings toward me and harm my reputation since readers could think that your claims about me are true when in fact, there are no posts in referrence to support your claim about me here.
The word infanticide has nothing to do with those in the thread you are referring to, for just because some people are ignorant of the meaning of the word, that does not mean that I intended to use it toward the poster. Infanticide is historically the murdering of infants by the state and the murderers justify to themselves what they do by saying that it will be good for their state in the future to kill new-borns. The subject in the post in question was not a new-born, but a teenager. This was explained even though the word means what it means and I do not think that I have to explain that, but I did anyway. The word is used for my purposes as an index word in the subject line to enter it in a catalog of posts that I have for my purposes.
But you have included the other claims about what I post here that I need to have those posts visible so that I can respond to you so people are not led to believe that what you write about me is true. I want to see these posts here so that I can post from my perspective so that readers are not left with only your claim about me here. Please post the URLs so that I can show the context of your claim about me here and show my side of this so that readers can make their own decision as to if or if not what you claim about me is true or not.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 10, 2013, at 8:32:15
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:01:04
> > What makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
>
> So you find it rewarding that a poster here and there are strong enough to continue posting in the face of the pain they receive at your website? Well...
>
> I don't see it as a "win" for the website though, other than of course the site is better off than if the poster left. It's more a "win" for the poster. What did you have to do with it? Do you feel pride in it?
>
>
> > I believe I'm hearing posters say it's tough to keep going with Lou around. I wonder what would make this rewarding for them.
> >
>
> I believe I hear you saying they are going to have to continue to see Lou continue posting as he is currently posting because you have no intention of enforcing rules on accusations and exaggerations and overgeneralizations? That they're going to have to learn to find intrinsic rewards in continuing to battle Lou? Thank you for making that clear. That makes me feel sad.
>
>
> > Posters can focus on:
> >
> > 1. posters who could use support
> > 2. Lou
> > 3. me
> >
> > Which is more likely to be effective? Rewarding?
>
> Apparently the latter two are totally ineffective. I generally have been choosing
>
> 4.) things in life other than Babble. I'm rather proud of my strength in being able to do that more and more. You are free to take pride in that if you wish, as you certainly have played a role in giving me that strength. I spent nearly a month without looking at the site!! Congratulations on generating that strength in me.
>
> > I understand feeling frustrated, or resentful, or even angry, at what causes hurt.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Why resentful? Frustrated and angry I understand.Friends,
If you are concerned about your mental-health, I am asking you to examine the post that I am responding to and see how I am raised to be held in a manner of (redacted by respondent). And do you know where this (expletive) comes from? And do you know what psychologists say could happen to you if you participate with those that are using me as a subject person here?
I intend to show a video presentaion by a psychologist to bring this out for you later. In the mean time, be advised that there are prohibitions to me from Mr Hsiung that prevent me from responding to the claims made against me here and I am following those prohibitions. When and if those that post about me here ever list the URLs of the posts that they are using against me here, then you could see my side of this and the context that they are used. Also be advised that I am not afforded the same protection here of the use of the notification policy to notify of posts that could harm me. You can see years of outstanding notifications/requests from me to Mr Hsiung and he states that he will attend to notifications WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME OF LOU'S. This leaves me at a great disadvantage to have protection for me here and I have a shield to deflect the stones thrown at me, but not those thrown when my back is turned. I am asking readers that see this (expletive) that is plainly visible to
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 10, 2013, at 8:44:34
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
>
>
> Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
>
>
> Friends,
Here a member states that it is plainly visible what is going on here concerning people posting about me here. And do you know the psychology behind what is posted about me here? And do you know what can happen to your mental-health if you go along with what is being posted about me here?
Now Mr Hsiung states that it may be good to see that my notifications do not have to be responded to. And he states that it may be good for him and the community as a whole to leave some of my notifications outstanding. I want to know what that "good" is. If you think you know what the "good" is, take this opportunity to post here what you think it is.
Lou
>
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 10, 2013, at 12:10:29
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2013, at 23:11:55
> Quick action on their part could, however, preclude many problems.
What quick action might that be, Bob? Do you expect us to somehow unring the bell? Or, go "La La La", and act like nothing happened?
> > Why don't you create a poll about what your community wants? Why don't you find out if e.g. over-exaggeration is acceptable to the community, or not?
>
> Because I'm your leader, not your servant.A leader in name only, who doesn't care what his community thinks. Got it. Ya. Ya. Your sandbox. But it isn't a sandbox, Bob.
I haven't read every post, but I've sampled a cross-section of posters and threads, and I keep seeing the same thing....requests for clarity on what your vision is, and how it will work. Can you not tell us that? If you think that you have, I'm telling you plainly that you have utterly failed.
Bob, I've been away a while, and some of my most unfavourable memories of you had faded away. But now I am fully congizant of just how difficult you are to converse with.
I don't think I have a problem with either reading the written word, or expressing myself in that format. But you have the most elastic and distorted use of words that I have ever encountered. Somehow, you make a word mean whatever you want it to mean. You seem to take perverse pleasure in ripping another person's words out of context (we arrange sentences into paragraphs for a reason), twisting those abstracted words just so, and trying to make them mean something else. Or, when asked a pointed question, your reply frequently conveys no meaning whatsoever, if you even bother to answer. Answering a question with a question is not an answer at all. But, perhaps worse is the not bothering to answer part.
I'm choosing my battles all right. And this is not how I wish to spend my time.
To all of the posters here, I want to sincerely apologize for my own situation. I want to be supportive. I really do. But I can't tolerate the structure as it has become. Babble has become an unhealthy place, for me. I can't just take part of it, and ignore the rest. It's all or nothing, and I'm choosing nothing.
Somehow, things have changed here dramatically, and yet nothing has changed. I'm sure Bob can explain that better than I can. <sarcasm>
See ya. I'll just keep my fond memories of y'all, and wish you all the best.
Lar
Posted by 10derheart on August 10, 2013, at 12:32:32
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on August 10, 2013, at 12:10:29
Don't you dare take this wrong....but I almost wish you hadn't come back...just to leave again. :-(
I get it, but I don't have to like it. Prob *feels* too similar to how I feel/felt toward people that have hurt me most, off boards, (mostly one misguided, fool-of-an-ex-therapist) which has **nothing** to do with you personally, it's, in essence, transference, I suppose.
Sigh. Well, maybe you'll modify your stance and drop by for some hit and run posting on Psych or Social or Meds someday...that would rock.
a hug to you (((Larry))) -- 10der
PS -- Butter tarts....mmmmmmmmmmm
Posted by tensor on August 10, 2013, at 13:50:02
In reply to It is gone far beyond theorectical now, Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on June 30, 2013, at 11:37:12
Banning users is currently ineffective. It's too easy to create a new account. Multiple violations should lead to permanent ban. Banning a single IP-address is usually effective but can also be bypassed with several (easy) techniques.
Perhaps the most effective way is moderating each user registration, and/or ban the usage of free e-mail accounts like hotmail and gmail, this would not apply to existing users though./tensor
Posted by Partlycloudy on August 10, 2013, at 15:34:10
In reply to :-(( » Larry Hoover, posted by 10derheart on August 10, 2013, at 12:32:32
> Don't you dare take this wrong....but I almost wish you hadn't come back...just to leave again. :-(
>
> I get it, but I don't have to like it. Prob *feels* too similar to how I feel/felt toward people that have hurt me most, off boards, (mostly one misguided, fool-of-an-ex-therapist) which has **nothing** to do with you personally, it's, in essence, transference, I suppose.
>
> Sigh. Well, maybe you'll modify your stance and drop by for some hit and run posting on Psych or Social or Meds someday...that would rock.
>
> a hug to you (((Larry))) -- 10der
>
> PS -- Butter tarts....mmmmmmmmmmmDitto!
Posted by Phillipa on August 10, 2013, at 20:22:16
In reply to Lou's response- » Toph, posted by Lou Pilder on August 10, 2013, at 5:52:46
Lou did you just write some posters are ignorant? That is judgemental and in my opinion deserves a sanction by Dr Bob
Posted by Phillipa on August 10, 2013, at 20:26:54
In reply to Lou's response- » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on August 10, 2013, at 8:08:43
Lou you just wrote the same some are ignorant. I take offence to thinking that you may feel I am ignorant? Phillipa
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