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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 120 to 144 of 179. Go back in thread:
Posted by Toph on May 13, 2013, at 15:54:26
In reply to He really didn't » Phillipa, posted by 10derheart on May 11, 2013, at 23:45:20
> I think Lou is very scrupulous about not breaking this rule.
>Maybe so, but does anyone see how a discussion of how to deal with disruption is obfuscated and deflected by a series of unrelated rants? Willful's thoughtful contribution has drowned in misdirection and drivel.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 13, 2013, at 20:09:49
In reply to Re: He really didn't, posted by Toph on May 13, 2013, at 15:54:26
Friends,
Each month, more people die from psychiatric drugs than those that died on 911. And it is much more than that, for people kill themselves during the withdrawal from these drugs. And how do people get addicted? he psychiatrist/doctor that gives the drugs to them states that you have to take the drug for a period of time. Sometimes this is months. Sometimes 2 weeks, sometimes 10 days. Some people can get addicted during the trial of the drug. Then they think that they can just stop the drug and find themselves in a horrific mind-altered state and think that they could never live in that kind of state and kill themselves. Some kill others along with themselves, for the drug could induce homicidal thinking along with suicidal thinking.
I came here to save the lives of those people stopping the drugs . But I am prevented by Mr. Hsiung's prohibitions to me here to do that. And there are children given these drugs and kill themselves. Here is a post that I would like for members to read.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20121113/msgs/1031901.html
Posted by 10derheart on May 13, 2013, at 20:33:35
In reply to Re: He really didn't, posted by Toph on May 13, 2013, at 15:54:26
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2013, at 20:40:02
In reply to Lou's response-drvul » Toph, posted by Lou Pilder on May 13, 2013, at 20:09:49
If I killed myself or someone else each time I took or stopped a psych med. I feel I'd be invincible as I am still here at least I feel me and it feels like I'm still here. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 13, 2013, at 21:29:30
In reply to Re: Lou's response-drvul » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2013, at 20:40:02
> If I killed myself or someone else each time I took or stopped a psych med. I feel I'd be invincible as I am still here at least I feel me and it feels like I'm still here. Phillipa
Friends,
Not everyone that takes psychiatric drugs kills themselves and/or others during withdrawal. Nor do all get tardive dyskinesia. But it is a potential for one to go into a mind-altered state and be compelled to kill themselves. And people that get tardive dyskinesia, has it happen without their control to stop it.
One does not know what will happen to them when they take mind-altering drugs. But there is the potential for death to happen by many ways other than suicide.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2013, at 22:13:57
In reply to Lou's response-pspyndhaweel » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 13, 2013, at 21:29:30
Lou so not everyone gets withdrawal, urges to kill, or commit suicide, nor get tardive dyskenisa. So do you feel that for some the meds are helpful rather than hurtful? If you could acknowledge this it would go a long way to reassuring other babblers that indeed the meds that are taking or thinking about taking could be a good thing? I have a feeling you do feel this way. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 2:45:30
In reply to Re: Lou's response-pspyndhaweel » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2013, at 22:13:57
> I only feel constrained when I am faced with warnings and pbc's from you.
>
> TwinleafLou may also feel constrained when faced with warnings and pbc's from me. If so, he and you may have something in common.
--
> I think Lou is very scrupulous about not breaking this rule.
>
> Maybe this is a great time to focus on positives?
>
> I'm trying, but sometimes I choose silence, too.
>
> 10derheartThanks for choosing to focus on a positive -- one about Lou! -- this time. I feel so proud of my deputies (including my former ones).
--
> does anyone see how a discussion of how to deal with disruption is obfuscated and deflected by a series of unrelated rants? Willful's thoughtful contribution has drowned in misdirection and drivel.
>
> TophBe the change you wish to see.
--
> Lou so not everyone gets withdrawal, urges to kill, or commit suicide, nor get tardive dyskenisa. So do you feel that for some the meds are helpful rather than hurtful? If you could acknowledge this it would go a long way to reassuring other babblers that indeed the meds that are taking or thinking about taking could be a good thing?
>
> PhillipaLou may express the fears of posters. Fear "wants" to make you feel afraid. Fear isn't going to reassure you.
--
> Obviously we all have noticed that Bob seems very invested in trying to focus us on the idea that we all have something, or perhaps various things, in common with Lou.
>
> But I wonder why this is such an issue.I see Lou as in some ways like others (both he and others sometimes feel constrained by me), but in other ways different (he tends to be more pessimistic, others more optimistic).
> So maybe what Bob is saying is that the push and pull of the community gives voice to posters' tangle of emotions-- and that Lou represents the fears while others of us represent the hopes-- or the hard-fought judgments we've come to through the conflict of these. And as such, perhaps we should tolerate his invective against drugs-- since dangers do exist.
>
> I don't know. I think we can all understand how hard is for us to hear Lou's comments-- because we've fought our way through fears, disappointments, etc about drugs-- and find his animadversions disturbing, depressing reminders of something in ourselves.Exactly.
> And yet--- well--- is there any possibility that he could frighten people who might be considering taking drugs? Is someone on a message board that powerful in the face of other voices?-- when it's really the internal struggle in each of us that leads to our ultimate judgments?
>
> WillfulPosters do have the power to frighten -- and to reassure -- others.
How do you fight your way through fears? It may not be a fight you like to revisit, but if you show others how you overcome yours, maybe they'll be more able to overcome theirs.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 4:29:21
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 2:45:30
I think it's a good point that we all have a lot in common. We are all human, and react with the same feelings to events, depending n how we interpret them. We all have the same emotions - fear, anger, hope, love. We each just vary a bit in how we react to particular events; each is important - the similarities and the individual differences. I think we are all basically in agreement with you on that.
This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.
Posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 6:53:18
In reply to Lou's response-pspyndhaweel » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 13, 2013, at 21:29:30
> > If I killed myself or someone else each time I took or stopped a psych med. I feel I'd be invincible as I am still here at least I feel me and it feels like I'm still here. Phillipa
>
> Friends,
> Not everyone that takes psychiatric drugs kills themselves and/or others during withdrawal. Nor do all get tardive dyskinesia. But it is a potential for one to go into a mind-altered state and be compelled to kill themselves. And people that get tardive dyskinesia, has it happen without their control to stop it.
> One does not know what will happen to them when they take mind-altering drugs. But there is the potential for death to happen by many ways other than suicide.
> LouVery, very good reasoning, Lou. Now all you have left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 7:02:18
In reply to Re: Lou's response-pspyndhaweel » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 6:53:18
I apologize for helping to allow this thread to drift away from its original theme.
Does this conversation belong on the Medication board?
- Scott------------------------------------
> > Not everyone that takes psychiatric drugs kills themselves and/or others during withdrawal. Nor do all get tardive dyskinesia. But it is a potential for one to go into a mind-altered state and be compelled to kill themselves. And people that get tardive dyskinesia, has it happen without their control to stop it.
> > One does not know what will happen to them when they take mind-altering drugs. But there is the potential for death to happen by many ways other than suicide.
> > Lou> Very, very good reasoning, Lou. Now all you have left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
>
> - Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 8:29:35
In reply to Re: feeling empowered » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 4:29:21
> I think it's a good point that we all have a lot in common. We are all human, and react with the same feelings to events, depending n how we interpret them. We all have the same emotions - fear, anger, hope, love. We each just vary a bit in how we react to particular events; each is important - the similarities and the individual differences. I think we are all basically in agreement with you on that.
>
> This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following post.
Lou
To see this post, go to the search box at the bottom of this page and type in:
[babble,1014270]
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 8:40:37
In reply to Re: feeling empowered » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 4:29:21
> I think it's a good point that we all have a lot in common. We are all human, and react with the same feelings to events, depending n how we interpret them. We all have the same emotions - fear, anger, hope, love. We each just vary a bit in how we react to particular events; each is important - the similarities and the individual differences. I think we are all basically in agreement with you on that.
>
> This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.
Twinleaf,
You wrote,[...return to this important issue...]
I am unsure as to what the issue is here that you want to return to. You say it is about the possible effects from my posts here. Does this mean that :
A. All of my posts
B. some of my posts, such as ....(can you give an example here?)
C. only posts that have educational content concerning death and psychiatric drugs
D. the link that I just offered here is or is not an example of the type of post that you are referring to. If it is, why is it?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 10:36:01
In reply to I apologize for digressing - Medication board?, posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 7:02:18
> This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.
>
> TwinleafI'm concerned about the effect of fear on newcomers. How do you fight your way through fear? Can you use knowledge, support, and understanding to help you overcome Lou's posts? If so, maybe that will show newcomers one way to overcome their fear.
--
> I apologize for helping to allow this thread to drift away from its original theme.
>
> Does this conversation belong on the Medication board?
>
> - ScottIt would be fine to continue it there. Or, would you like to try out different ways of responding? That might be most appropriate here. For example:
> Very, very good reasoning, Lou. Now all you have left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
What if you addressed your reply to other posters (and lurkers) instead of to Lou?
Bob
Posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 10:44:06
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 10:36:01
What if you addressed your reply to other posters (and lurkers) instead of to Lou?
I'll try that.
It sounds difficult, though.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 10:58:01
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 10:36:01
I think most of us who are veterans here do not feel any personal fear about Lou's posts. I do not read them any more, not because they cause me any fear or distress, but because they are extremely repetitive and I do not think I can learn anything new from them. Newcomers will simply not have the knowledge that we have to avoid feeling possible fear or increased concern about using medication. I don't think there is a way for posters like me to share my detachment with any newcomers without being uncivil to Lou. I feel that a minimal degree of fair moderation would accomplish the goal of reassuring new posters in a way that we simply can't do - much as we might like to.
Posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 18:48:40
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 2:45:30
Lou does not instill fear in me. But to newbies isn't a good possibility that he may and when a person reads about a fear they may or may not already have. Wouldn't the negative posts on meds contribute to this fear? Might they leave and go elsewhere. Repeat to their docs what they read? Could the doctor of the new person advise not to frequent the site? I kind of liked Dinah's idea of two separate boards one for those who do believe in meds & one for those who do not share this feeling? Then the newbie could decide which board would be best for them? Just a thought? Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 20:21:40
In reply to Re: feeling empowered » Dr. Bob, posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 18:48:40
> Lou does not instill fear in me. But to newbies isn't a good possibility that he may and when a person reads about a fear they may or may not already have. Wouldn't the negative posts on meds contribute to this fear? Might they leave and go elsewhere. Repeat to their docs what they read? Could the doctor of the new person advise not to frequent the site? I kind of liked Dinah's idea of two separate boards one for those who do believe in meds & one for those who do not share this feeling? Then the newbie could decide which board would be best for them? Just a thought? Phillipa
Friends,
Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking two or more psychotropic drugs that could cause death?
Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking more than one central nervous system depressant that death could be a result of that combination?
Would it not be supportive to warn people that are contemplating drugging their child concerning the aspect of the potential of life-ruining conditions that their child could get as a result of taking these drugs so that the parent could make amore-informed decision as to drug their child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor? Would it not be supportive to warn others that are in withdrawal from these drugs that they could go into a mind altered state to be compelled to kill themselves and/or others?
Would it not be supportive to warn members that their condition could be worsened by taking these drugs?
Would it not be supportive to post educational material concerning the history of the development of psychotropic drugs?
Would it not be supportive to
Posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 22:53:49
In reply to Lou's response- » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 20:21:40
Lou Truly I don't share your feelings on this matter. I do know of those who have left this site as their pdocs said not to frequent sites that post fear. Hard enough for one to accept that they or a loved one may indeed need meds. Don't you feel it's a shame that some as they wish to appear strong suffer in silence for sometimes years before consulting a doctor. They finally make a commitment to themselves to try the med and then read something that causes them to possibly not give the med a chance to help them. Could this then possibly lead to the person giving up all hope? This would be a tragedy to me. That's how I feel. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 0:21:21
In reply to Re: Lou's response- » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 22:53:49
> > What if you addressed your reply to other posters (and lurkers) instead of to Lou?
>
> I'll try that.
>
> It sounds difficult, though.
>
> - ScottI bet you could do it. For example, instead of:
> Very, very good reasoning, Lou. Now all you have left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
maybe:
> Lou makes a valid point. Now all he has left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
--
> Newcomers will simply not have the knowledge that we have to avoid feeling possible fear or increased concern about using medication. I don't think there is a way for posters like me to share my detachment with any newcomers without being uncivil to Lou. I feel that a minimal degree of fair moderation would accomplish the goal of reassuring new posters in a way that we simply can't do - much as we might like to.
>
> TwinleafIt's too bad you feel powerless to reassure new posters. Maybe you could share your knowledge? Or explain how you detach without mentioning Lou?
> I kind of liked Dinah's idea of two separate boards one for those who do believe in meds & one for those who do not share this feeling? Then the newbie could decide which board would be best for them? Just a thought?
That does seem to be a common approach these days. Liberals watch liberal channels, conservatives watch conservative channels, and everyone's happy.
> Don't you feel it's a shame that some as they wish to appear strong suffer in silence for sometimes years before consulting a doctor. They finally make a commitment to themselves to try the med and then read something that causes them to possibly not give the med a chance to help them.
>
> PhillipaAnd then they read something that renews their hope (if they're not on an anti-med board), and they change their mind again.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on May 15, 2013, at 5:26:29
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 0:21:21
I really don't feel disempowered about this situation with Lou. I feel that I do offer encouragement, and what knowledge I have to other posters - particularly new ones. I am concerned about people who never even begin posting because they are frightened away by the negative messages in Lou's posts. I can't address them.
As moderator, you have power that we don't have: you can use the civility rules in an equal and fair way to ensure that Babble is welcoming for everyone. The way it is now, it is not welcoming and safe for newcomers either taking medications or planning to take them. Respectfully, Bob, you do have the power to make it both safe and welcoming here, if you choose to use it.
Posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 9:27:25
In reply to Lou's response- » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 20:21:40
> Friends,
> Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking two or more psychotropic drugs that could cause death?That's what doctors are for. They know which drugs interact with each other adversely. Combining Zoloft with Parnate can cause a potentially fatal reaction called "serotonin syndrome". Yet, combining Zoloft with nortriptyline is usually safe and has saved lives by eradicating depression in individuals who would otherwise have committed suicide. Depression is a life-ruining illness.
> Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking more than one central nervous system depressant that death could be a result of that combination?
I think that this would be supportive if one were to identify examples of such contraindicated combinations. Which combinations of CNS depressants are commonly used in psychiatry?
> Would it not be supportive to warn people that are contemplating drugging their child
I think most parents bring their children to see a doctor for treatment. It is the doctor who decides how to medicate a child. Personally, I find that the word "drugging" is a pejorative term.
> Would it not be supportive to warn members that their condition could be worsened by taking these drugs?
In what ways can psychotropic medications worsen their condition?
I think it would be supportive to warn people that a minority of patients will see their symptoms worsen transiently as a result of drug withdrawal.
I think one of the weaknesses of these talking points is the use of the word, "could". What isn't depicted here are the numerical values of the risks of these things to occur. They might not occur at all. Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, the word "could" as used here is virtually meaningless.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:08
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Twinleaf on May 15, 2013, at 5:26:29
> I really don't feel disempowered about this situation with Lou. I feel that I do offer encouragement, and what knowledge I have to other posters - particularly new ones. I am concerned about people who never even begin posting because they are frightened away by the negative messages in Lou's posts.
What about the people who do begin posting because they're reassured by your encouragement and knowledge? Do you feel Lou has more power to frighten than you have to reassure?
> As moderator, you have power that we don't have: you can use the civility rules in an equal and fair way to ensure that Babble is welcoming for everyone. The way it is now, it is not welcoming and safe for newcomers either taking medications or planning to take them. Respectfully, Bob, you do have the power to make it both safe and welcoming here, if you choose to use it.
No community will feel welcoming and safe to everyone. Whenever members of the community express opinions, those who disagree may feel unwelcome and unsafe. There continue to be newcomers here, however, so they must feel welcome and safe enough.
I wonder if more newcomers would feel welcome and safe if fewer old-timers said Babble was unwelcoming and unsafe.
Hmm, negative messages about Babble might frighten away people like negative messages about medication. So that's another way in which you and Lou may have something in common.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:15
In reply to The word 'could'. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 9:27:25
> Personally, I find that the word "drugging" is a pejorative term.
>
> Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, the word "could" as used here is virtually meaningless.Scott,
Well done! My only reservation is with "meaningless". Somehow the way you addressed "drugging" seemed to me less, well, pejorative. What do you think about something like:
> Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, it's hard to know how worried to be about the possibility that something "could" happen.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:10:13
In reply to Re: The word 'could'., posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:15
That wouldn't really address it, would it?
How about if he said that he felt uncomfortable/distressed/angry etc. at the word "drugging"?
Or would this be something to report to you privately? How do you feel about the word "drugging"? Or, a useage that I find more of an issue, "drugging your children". Do you consider it civil for someone to ask a question about medications, and for someone to respond in terms of "drugging your children" along with comments about suicide, murder, and violence against groups of people? Doesn't that seem a bit, well, "accusing"? With or without a "could"? Wouldn't there even be a problem with accusing knowing the truthfulness of the statement? After all, unless you're going out for street drugs, no parent has the authority to "drug" their children.
How would you feel as a distraught mother approaching Babble for perhaps the first time for answers, and receiving an answer like that? Would you feel accused? Would you stick around Babble, no matter how much other posters tried to soften the impact?
I wouldn't.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:22:28
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:10:13
I think the idea should be considered the topic of a civility discussion separate from any issues with any particular poster. I strongly believe that "drugging your children" with or without "could" is inherently accusing, and unless parents are proceeding without a psychiatrist, inherently untruthful as well as accusing.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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