![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 49 to 73 of 179. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou PIlder on May 6, 2013, at 10:14:58
In reply to Lou's warning-psueahpsyd-datzpstewphidd, posted by Lou PIlder on May 6, 2013, at 8:36:22
> > > I respectfully but strongly support Scott. He has given extremely accurate summaries of why Lou's posts are harmful - especially to new, inexperienced posters. He should not have to do this over and over again.
> > >
> > > We all understand that we are dealing with a serious situation which appears to be marked by inflexibility and perseveration, and where choosing new behaviors involving more responsiveness to others' views may not be a real possibility. All the more reason why we really need a moderator who will use his powers fairly and consistently so that all members of the forum have as good an experience here as possible.
> >
> > Friends,
> > You can read here that this poster goes along with Scott that my posts are harmful and Scott says that what I have posted is disinformation.
> > Here is one video that I posted and I have never seen anyone here or outside of here that wrote anything to disprove what is in the video. In fact, what is stated in the video is accepted in many scientific circles and used in court cases. If anyone want to "debunk" anything that is in this video, I could have the opportunity to respond. This is my warning to those that are influenced by wha is posted here about me to discount what am writing about, that what you see in this video has not been debunked at all so it could mark the difference between you being a live person or a corpse as to what you want to discount or not by the nature of Scott's post to me here.
> > Lou
> > Here is the link and then there is the video in the link.
> > http://www.encognitive.com/node/886
> >
>
> Friends,
> Here is a video that I posted and if there is anyone that wants to post here that they can "debunk" the content of the video, then go ahead and I will show you differently. In fact, I will show you that the drugs can actually worsen your depression and have the potential to induce a mind-altered state to compel you to kill yourself and/or others and even commit mass-murder and kill your own family and innocent children. To see this video:
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in:
> [youtube, vpAEapBfXe0]
> Lou
>
Friends,
Be advised that it is well-known how hate groups are fostered in a community and the horrific damage to the members that the hate induces to those that are in those groups. In this case here, hate in a person that takes mind-altering dugs in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, could go into a mind-altered state to be compelled to kill themselves and/or others, even those that are not the hated by the group, for the hate can be transferred to others, even their own family members. Be advised that I see clearly how hatred toward me and the Jews and others is allowed to be fostered here. It is so easy to do here be just allowing what is plainly visible here as the record shows years of outstanding notifications/requests from me to Mr Hsiung and his previous deputies and his deputy now. The prohibitions to me by Mr Hsiung also prevent readers from knowing what I need to post here. It is so easy to persuade the uninformed. You do not have to be a mastermind to keep people uninformed. It is my great conviction that those that have died here as attributed by the drugs, could still be alive if those prohibitions to me were never posted to me here by Mr Hsiung.
But now lets see how hate is fostered here toward me and the Jews and others.
First, psychologists have studied how hate is formed in a community to make a hate-group. It is not a mystery and you do not have to be a mastermind to foster a hate-group. For hate can be a mask that the hater wares to hide their insecurities. And then the hate elevates the hater above the ones that they are hating, (in their own minds that is). Then the hater solicits others to hate the target so that they can get what they think is validation from others to elevate (falsely) their self-worth and to prevent others from exposing them as having personal insecurities.
The haters thinks that they will be empowered by being in a group which they believe becomes a shield to prevent accountability for their acts of hatred. Hate ties the group together with their common cause so that they can debase the object of their hate which they think will bolster their self-image.
This becomes fashionable in a group where hate toward others is allowed to stand. The haters blame the victim of their hate to justify the hate. Their minds can be taken over by them falsely thinking that they will be doing good by destroying their target of hate. And then the target is not allowed to stand up to the bullies with hatred toward them. But I say to you that if when you target someone other than me for hate, I'll be there. And when I see you posting here defamation toward someone other than me, I'll be there. And when you post hate here about me, it has been revealed to me that someone greater than me will be there.
Friends, be not deceived. If you join the group here that is posting defamation toward me that is being allowed by Mr Hsiung, how could you escape the consequences that hate could induce in you?
Lou
Posted by Toph on May 6, 2013, at 10:30:36
In reply to Re: feeling powerless, posted by Dr. Bob on May 3, 2013, at 23:45:03
> > When you list my posts like this it makes me feel a little like a bully. Then I think of the posters who this individual has upset over the years and I feel less so.
> >
> > Toph
>
> Thank you for sharing that. You felt less like a bully, or more justified in bullying?
>
> Those who see others being bullied, or are bullied themselves, can start to feel justified in bullying others. If you felt more justified in bullying, you may have experienced firsthand how that can happen. And you may now be able to feel more empathy for bullies.
>
> Not that empathy is the answer to everything.
>
> --I never felt bullied by this poster. I know how lithium has saved my life; and though I may have caused someone to be offended by something I said, I am certain that I am not anti-semetic. So I am unfazed by his agenda. I have been blocked after getting entangled with him a couple times, but that was years ago. I have little patience for his obsessions and his apparent refusal to accept that he offends people. Can you bully a bully?
I like Dinah's suggestion. Posts on the med board should be limited to information, personal experience, side effects regarding a medication. All other rants about medication should go on the new Great Deception Board.
Posted by SLS on May 6, 2013, at 10:43:26
In reply to Lou's warning-heytgrewpz, posted by Lou PIlder on May 6, 2013, at 10:14:58
I'm sorry that you feel hated.
So that I may be clearly understood, I don't hate you. I hate that your posts are allowed to remain unsanctioned, despite the proscription against them in the website FAQ. Besides being uncivil, I think that they detract from the value of this site.
If I have been uncivil here, it is my hope that I be sanctioned along with you. Were I to be sanctioned without you, I would be greviously disappointed and indignant for such an inequity. I therefore appeal to Dr. Bob that he take action against any incivility that exists along this thread. If it his judgment that Lou Pilder's posts do not contain exaggerations, overgeneralizations, and accusations, I think it is incumbent upon him to define these three terms as they relate to civility in posting.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 6, 2013, at 13:51:42
In reply to Hating » Lou PIlder, posted by SLS on May 6, 2013, at 10:43:26
Funny.
From the outset, I knew that the time and energy I would devote to this issue would be an exercise in futility. Still, I continue to post. Nothing will change. The decision has been made and committed to. It will not be reversed. It is indeed a comedy that I might expect action from inaction. Of course, inaction is a behavior. I guess the moderator behaves as he feels is in the best interests of the website and its participants. I am just not sure that it is good enough to promote a healthy future for Psycho-Babble.
Funny?
- Scott
Posted by Lou PIlder on May 6, 2013, at 14:19:37
In reply to Lou's warning-heytgrewpz, posted by Lou PIlder on May 6, 2013, at 10:14:58
> > > > I respectfully but strongly support Scott. He has given extremely accurate summaries of why Lou's posts are harmful - especially to new, inexperienced posters. He should not have to do this over and over again.
> > > >
> > > > We all understand that we are dealing with a serious situation which appears to be marked by inflexibility and perseveration, and where choosing new behaviors involving more responsiveness to others' views may not be a real possibility. All the more reason why we really need a moderator who will use his powers fairly and consistently so that all members of the forum have as good an experience here as possible.
> > >
> > > Friends,
> > > You can read here that this poster goes along with Scott that my posts are harmful and Scott says that what I have posted is disinformation.
> > > Here is one video that I posted and I have never seen anyone here or outside of here that wrote anything to disprove what is in the video. In fact, what is stated in the video is accepted in many scientific circles and used in court cases. If anyone want to "debunk" anything that is in this video, I could have the opportunity to respond. This is my warning to those that are influenced by wha is posted here about me to discount what am writing about, that what you see in this video has not been debunked at all so it could mark the difference between you being a live person or a corpse as to what you want to discount or not by the nature of Scott's post to me here.
> > > Lou
> > > Here is the link and then there is the video in the link.
> > > http://www.encognitive.com/node/886
> > >
> >
> > Friends,
> > Here is a video that I posted and if there is anyone that wants to post here that they can "debunk" the content of the video, then go ahead and I will show you differently. In fact, I will show you that the drugs can actually worsen your depression and have the potential to induce a mind-altered state to compel you to kill yourself and/or others and even commit mass-murder and kill your own family and innocent children. To see this video:
> > A. Pull up Google
> > B. Type in:
> > [youtube, vpAEapBfXe0]
> > Lou
> >
> Friends,
> Be advised that it is well-known how hate groups are fostered in a community and the horrific damage to the members that the hate induces to those that are in those groups. In this case here, hate in a person that takes mind-altering dugs in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, could go into a mind-altered state to be compelled to kill themselves and/or others, even those that are not the hated by the group, for the hate can be transferred to others, even their own family members. Be advised that I see clearly how hatred toward me and the Jews and others is allowed to be fostered here. It is so easy to do here be just allowing what is plainly visible here as the record shows years of outstanding notifications/requests from me to Mr Hsiung and his previous deputies and his deputy now. The prohibitions to me by Mr Hsiung also prevent readers from knowing what I need to post here. It is so easy to persuade the uninformed. You do not have to be a mastermind to keep people uninformed. It is my great conviction that those that have died here as attributed by the drugs, could still be alive if those prohibitions to me were never posted to me here by Mr Hsiung.
> But now lets see how hate is fostered here toward me and the Jews and others.
> First, psychologists have studied how hate is formed in a community to make a hate-group. It is not a mystery and you do not have to be a mastermind to foster a hate-group. For hate can be a mask that the hater wares to hide their insecurities. And then the hate elevates the hater above the ones that they are hating, (in their own minds that is). Then the hater solicits others to hate the target so that they can get what they think is validation from others to elevate (falsely) their self-worth and to prevent others from exposing them as having personal insecurities.
> The haters thinks that they will be empowered by being in a group which they believe becomes a shield to prevent accountability for their acts of hatred. Hate ties the group together with their common cause so that they can debase the object of their hate which they think will bolster their self-image.
> This becomes fashionable in a group where hate toward others is allowed to stand. The haters blame the victim of their hate to justify the hate. Their minds can be taken over by them falsely thinking that they will be doing good by destroying their target of hate. And then the target is not allowed to stand up to the bullies with hatred toward them. But I say to you that if when you target someone other than me for hate, I'll be there. And when I see you posting here defamation toward someone other than me, I'll be there. And when you post hate here about me, it has been revealed to me that someone greater than me will be there.
> Friends, be not deceived. If you join the group here that is posting defamation toward me that is being allowed by Mr Hsiung, how could you escape the consequences that hate could induce in you?
> LouFriends,
Be advised that I know of no post here where any of what I have been posting about has been "debunked".
In fact, there is a huge ongoing body of evidence that supports what I have been posting for years here that others are just know admitting to be fact and hat there have been so many deaths from psychotropic drugs that (redacted by respondent) if they listened to me.
Here is a video that I had posted here and if anyone want to post that anything in it is not true, go ahead and I will respond accordingly.
Lou
To see this video:
A. Bring up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube, ARZ2Wv2BoFs]
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2013, at 17:40:29
In reply to Funny., posted by SLS on May 6, 2013, at 13:51:42
Ten years later and it's still going on. Other people get in trouble for their responses to Lou.
I hate for you to be one of those people.
I'll be looking with interest as well on this thread and the administration of it. But I'm not expecting anything that will make me at all content or happy.
It is what it is. Should it be different? I think so. But Bob doesn't really care what I think.
Stay safe. It's not like anything will change with civil disobedience. Bob does what he wants. Consider Bob to be a force of nature. A rather unpredictable wind. And Lou is like a force of nature as well on the board. A less unpredictable one. I personally have given up completely on being able to make any sort of difference here. If the benefits outweigh the costs, it's worth posting. If not, it's not worth posting.
Banging your head against Bob or Lou isn't going to hurt either of them at all.
The funny thing is, Scott, that I think Bob honestly appreciates you and Twinleaf and 10der and other posters who have contributed a lot over the years in a positive sense. It's just not always clear from his responses.
Posted by Twinleaf on May 6, 2013, at 18:27:33
In reply to Not funny » SLS, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2013, at 17:40:29
Thank you, Dinah - your kind words are much appreciated. I don't really know why this ancient problem is so hard to steer clear of. Partly, I think it's because I do hate to think of how scary this could be for new posters, but I think it's also because I do want to believe that Babble is moderated by someone who treats everyone with equality. That's an important requirement for me to feel that I am in a good place when I am here.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2013, at 18:56:20
In reply to Re: Not funny, posted by Twinleaf on May 6, 2013, at 18:27:33
Posted by 10derheart on May 6, 2013, at 19:34:23
In reply to Re: Brainwashing (nm), posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2013, at 18:56:20
Posted by gardenergirl on May 6, 2013, at 22:42:56
In reply to Conflicted again., posted by SLS on May 6, 2013, at 7:56:08
> What would be the consequences of blocking Lou Pilder from posting were he to qualify for blockage according to historic moderation procedures?What would be the consequences? Litigation. Or the threat of litigation. One that is taken seriously to a large enough extent.
gg
Posted by 10derheart on May 6, 2013, at 23:04:26
In reply to Re: Conflicted again. » SLS, posted by gardenergirl on May 6, 2013, at 22:42:56
Perhaps, and you know I know where you're coming from, but....
Dr. Bob has blocked Lou.
I may have blocked Lou myself, but it's hard to remember back so far. PBCs for sure.I don't think litigation ensued, although of course it may have...it's not like I am/was ever privileged to anything special about Dr. Bob and any poster.
And things could have...evolved after those times I am remembering.
But perhaps...the threat is more of an issue than I ever imagined.
I just tend to think Dr. Bob truly does not find most, or any of Lou's content uncivil. <shrug> I have good reason to think that. Nothing to do really...Dr. Bob is sometimes as changeable as the wind, like someone said...Dinah, maybe?
ps....always lovely to see your name :-)
Posted by gardenergirl on May 7, 2013, at 0:32:50
In reply to Re: Conflicted again. » gardenergirl, posted by 10derheart on May 6, 2013, at 23:04:26
I know there have been past blocks. But I don't think there have been any since you and I were deputies and experienced that lovely trauma. I could be wrong.
And I don't know that any litigation actually ensued. But I know it was a threat for some time, and that leaves a mark on one.
But all that being said, I agree that whether something is uncivil or not is not always so obvious.
Hope you are well, friend.
gg
Posted by Willful on May 7, 2013, at 1:21:27
In reply to Funny., posted by SLS on May 6, 2013, at 13:51:42
I did seem to notice on the Med board, that Dr Bob had given a pbc for the response to your post to Lillabella. I hope that this signals that Bob has noticed the tenor of Lou's posts to some other posters.
I understand the ambivalence you feel, because I also believe that Bob contributed to many people's lives through psychobabble. I'm grateful to him for creating and sustaining this forum. Then, too he acts in good faith, but has a philosophy that I don't fully understand that guides his decision-making. I respect his right to act fairly within his definition---
But I also believe that we have a right-- or duty-- to speak about problematic or even destructive things that weaken our ability to be a real community. I try, although maybe not often enough, to question my own opinions-- and not to be too secure in their rightness--and to honor contributions such as Bob's-- but it's important also to have a honest voice, and not be swallowed by doubt.
I hope this place does continue as a constructive and open place, where new posters can find help, information, and understanding.
Willful
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:53
In reply to Re: Over and over again. » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on May 5, 2013, at 16:35:16
> statements ... deride me, accuse me falsely, put me in a false light, defame me
>
> Lou> I think that you persistently publish falsehoods regarding the practice of psychiaty.
>
> Let's see if the administration engages in moderation by issuing a PBC to you and/or me.
>
> - Scott> Lou's posts are harmful - especially to new, inexperienced posters.
>
> TwinleafPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
It's up to you to decide whom you interact with. Sometimes interacting with others may be frustrating, staying civil may be a challenge, and new skills may help. If you're open to developing new skills (which I realize may not be why you came in the first place), that's another way in which you may be supported by other posters.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceThanks,
Bob
PS:
> Ten years later and it's still going on. Other people get in trouble for their responses to Lou.
>
> DinahSo you see how I might feel powerless to change how posters behave.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:59
In reply to Not funny » SLS, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2013, at 17:40:29
> > I wonder if seeing me as empowering Lou might be connected with feeling powerless to change how I behave.
>
> Of course it does. This is the crux of the behavioral dynamic that produces the frustration and sense of powerlessness many of us feel here.> Nothing will change.
>
> - Scott> I personally have given up completely on being able to make any sort of difference here.
>
> DinahThere are things I feel powerless to change, too. Does anybody here have any tips on how to deal with feelings of powerlessness?
--
> I don't like to repeatedly invest the time and energy to contest your same litany of disinformation, exaggerations, and overgeneralizations. Historically, others have contested your assertions without your engaging them in a dialogue.
>
> - ScottLou may express what some posters fear. What would reassure those posters who feel afraid? If I were frightened of medication, I don't think blocking someone who expressed my fears would reassure me.
A reassuring statement could be developed and reused, for example:
> Almost any drug will cause death if not managed properly. It is true that drugs in general can cause death. Psychiatric drugs are not unique in this regard.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294364Still, it takes repeated investments of time and energy to reassure other posters. I can see how that could get old. It takes repeated investments of time and energy to moderate Babble.
--
> C. There are two standards here, Lou.
> F. It [may] be good for this community as a whole to leave your notifications outstanding, Lou
>
> Lou PilderLou,
1. I wonder if you feel powerless to change how I behave. If so, you and other posters may have something in common.
2. In a way, there are in fact different standards, because time to respond to notifications is limited:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#help
3. In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
4. I should be careful what I wish for, too, but I might address more of your concerns if someone else notified me of them. Does anybody else here share your concerns? The goal here is support. Do you feel supported here? Maybe by Scott?
> I'm sorry that you feel hated.
>
> - Scott--
> Be advised that it is well-known how hate groups are fostered in a community and the horrific damage to the members that the hate induces to those that are in those groups.
> First, psychologists have studied how hate is formed in a community to make a hate-group. It is not a mystery and you do not have to be a mastermind to foster a hate-group. For hate can be a mask that the hater wares to hide their insecurities. And then the hate elevates the hater above the ones that they are hating, (in their own minds that is). Then the hater solicits others to hate the target so that they can get what they think is validation from others to elevate (falsely) their self-worth and to prevent others from exposing them as having personal insecurities.
> The haters thinks that they will be empowered by being in a group which they believe becomes a shield to prevent accountability for their acts of hatred. Hate ties the group together with their common cause so that they can debase the object of their hate which they think will bolster their self-image.
> This becomes fashionable in a group where hate toward others is allowed to stand. The haters blame the victim of their hate to justify the hate. Their minds can be taken over by them falsely thinking that they will be doing good by destroying their target of hate. And then the target is not allowed to stand up to the bullies with hatred toward them.
>
> LouI wouldn't disagree with the above, though I wouldn't overgeneralize, either. I wonder:
1. What leads one subgroup to become hated instead of others?
2. I could imagine some of those in the hated subgroup starting to hate those in the hating subgroup. Would the above dynamics then also start to apply also to them?
3. How might such a cycle be broken?
Bob
Posted by SLS on May 7, 2013, at 5:23:41
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » SLS » Twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:53
Thank you.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2013, at 8:03:28
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » SLS » Twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:53
> > Ten years later and it's still going on. Other people get in trouble for their responses to Lou.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> So you see how I might feel powerless to change how posters behave.I actually do. And I can see how such feelings might engender other feelings, such as irritation and exasperation. Certainly my feelings of powerlessness with you can engender at least that much - with some rage and disappointment thrown in from time to time.
When I felt powerless as a mother, I remember on occasion that I decided that if I couldn't change responses to a situation I'd try to change the situation. For example, it was a lot easier to change the environment to remove a temptation from a toddler than it was to battle with the toddler to ignore the temptation.
That was what was behind my suggestion for an anti-medication board. It's an issue that crops up over and over and over again. It's not limited to a single poster. And while I'm not in any way comparing Babblers to toddlers, there are some situations that over time tend to fray self control. Perhaps you can see how, to people struggling to find a way out of hopelessness, despair, flatness, intense anxiety or agitation, that it could be incredibly distressing to see extreme negativity over and over and over again. It's one thing to share struggles with despair over finding a medication that works, or anger over side effects or failure of a medication, and another thing entirely to suggest to a mother, even indirectly, that they are leading their children to disaster, or to imply that posters are an SSRI away from violence to themselves or others. Frankly, I think the last two are uncivil or insensitive. But if you don't wish to consider it that, then my suggestion to you is to do what you're trying to do on a post by post basis. Separate the two groups, and allow each to discuss their viewpoint without fights. It could be an interesting study of group dynamics to see what happened in not separating posters so much as separating types of posts. This really isn't a Lou specific theme. I've heard complaints from people for years that Babble can be very anti-med, and that that can scare people off Babble to a less frightening site. Wasn't that the idea behind the rule against overgeneralization? I could be wrong, but that was my assumption.
I'm not a big flag waver for meds. I've found the right ones can be a quality of life saver, perhaps even a life saver. I've found that the wrong ones can be harmful. I wish I had had a more conservative pdoc in the nineties. But I can put myself in the place of the meds board posters by thinking about such a volume of anti-therapist posts on Psychology - even if such posts didn't involve repeated statements of how therapy could turn me into a killer. I'd soon find someplace else to discuss therapy. And I'd probably often blow up and defend my therapist and therapy in general.
I think there are many people, myself included, who don't want to see Lou banished, who would like to see him be able to be part of this community, but in a way that is more helpful to the community than what is now going on.
I appreciate your taking the time to respond to the feelings behind what people wrote in this thread, and I particularly appreciate your sharing with us some of your perspective. That always tends to reduce resentment for me because your actions seem less capricious and because you become more of a fellow struggling human being. I understand that you can get frustrated with your role. But we can't afford for you to react to that frustration as, frankly, we might. Find your place of stability, take a deep breath, and work *with* us to find an answer that respects everyone here.
Please?
Posted by Toph on May 7, 2013, at 16:25:23
In reply to Re: feeling powerless, posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:59
Frustration, it's frustration that resonates with me Bob, not powerlessness. You HAVE the power to create rules and impose them. You don't, so we get frustrated. Frustrated because while Dinah may have doubts about whether medication saves lives, I don't. I was hospitalized five times in ten years with manic or suicidal episodes until I commited to taking lithium. I was hospitalized once in the subsequent thirty years and that when I watched my mother die. Lithium saved my life. So f*ck you Lou. How's that for frustration? Lou is undoubtedly intelligent and clever. We know that because of his frustrating comunication style when there's evidence that he can communicate perfectly normally. And how in God's name does he get away with using veiled accusations that I and others are anti-semetic when you simply disagree with him? It's infuriating and manipulative and uncivil. No, Dinah, I have wasted my breath defending him in the past and hoping that he could be someone I could actually have a relationship with both here and privately through Babblemail. I'm tired of being accused of being an anti-semite who is stupid enough to be dependent on medication and about to drop dead any minute from these medications or my own hand. F*ck you Lou, I'm frustrated.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2013, at 22:16:12
In reply to Re: feeling powerless » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on May 7, 2013, at 16:25:23
I totally understand your frustration, and sympathize.
I'm just looking for a way to solve the problem in whatever way is remotely possible with as little damage as possible.
BTW, I totally agree that the right medications save lives - and also make lives worth living. And I think any risk to patients can be offset with a decent psychiatrist keeping an eye on possible bad reactions.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 5:48:27
In reply to Re: feeling powerless » Toph, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2013, at 22:16:12
Friends,
If you are a parent and attempting to decide as to drug your child or yourself or a loved one in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, and you are following this discussion, be advised that now {anecdotal} is posted here. Some forums do not allow anecdotal, and I lean to that as being supportive. I base this on what are known as fallacies of logic and propaganda tactics used to persuade people such as {testimonial}. These type of tactics usually are used in conjunction with repression to other's speech so that a persuasion of falsity could be the result, and influence people to do something on the basis of a {testimonial}.
What I would like for readers to do is to first read the article here on anecdotal evidence. And then pull up Google to read another article concerning Lithium . You see, there is a lot of evidence-based research concerning Lithium in treatment of so-called bipolar disorder. And there are many deaths and other life-ruining conditions that Lithium has caused. And there is evidence that Lithium can cause depression and kidney failure and thyroid abnormalities, to say the least. My friends, I want you to know all the facts before you drug your child or yourself, not just anecdotal reports.
Lou
The first article that I would like those here to read is;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Then after that, see the following by:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[Lithium for bipolar disorder is a-National health, examiner]
There could be a pic of a man and was posted on Nov 13, 2011 by Harold Mandell
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 6:43:48
In reply to Lou's warning-anecdotal, posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 5:48:27
> Friends,
> If you are a parent and attempting to decide as to drug your child or yourself or a loved one in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, and you are following this discussion, be advised that now {anecdotal} is posted here. Some forums do not allow anecdotal, and I lean to that as being supportive. I base this on what are known as fallacies of logic and propaganda tactics used to persuade people such as {testimonial}. These type of tactics usually are used in conjunction with repression to other's speech so that a persuasion of falsity could be the result, and influence people to do something on the basis of a {testimonial}.
> What I would like for readers to do is to first read the article here on anecdotal evidence. And then pull up Google to read another article concerning Lithium . You see, there is a lot of evidence-based research concerning Lithium in treatment of so-called bipolar disorder. And there are many deaths and other life-ruining conditions that Lithium has caused. And there is evidence that Lithium can cause depression and kidney failure and thyroid abnormalities, to say the least. My friends, I want you to know all the facts before you drug your child or yourself, not just anecdotal reports.
> Lou
> The first article that I would like those here to read is;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
> Then after that, see the following by:
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in:
> [Lithium for bipolar disorder is a-National health, examiner]
> There could be a pic of a man and was posted on Nov 13, 2011 by Harold MandellFriends,
If all the facts were allowed to be made known to you about Lithium, I think that you could make a more-informed decision as to drug your child or yourself in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor. I want to give you those facts. Facts that I think could mark the difference between you being a live person or a corpse. I do not want to post anecdotal here, but be it as it may be that it is allowed here, I had a friend that died from Lithium. YOu see, Lithium can become toxic and cause death. There could be no time to go to a doctor for the death could happen even by taking the prescribed amount. You see, Lithium is a salt type of drug. It can cause the body to be disrupted from the imbalance of sodium that it has the potential to imbalance, resulting in a disruption of bodily functions and toxicity. This can be looked up in the research that sows what happens to the body under lithium treatment. Even blindness has happened from Lithium toxicity that can happen even when taking the prescribed amount. Death is also a consequence from taking Lithium.
Here are some links to statistics involving Lithium. Notice the percentage for diabetes. It is huge, statistically that is. And I come here to show you a way to overcome depression and addiction and such without being scared that you will die from a drug or get a life-ruining condition or addiction.
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lithium+carbonate/diabetes+millitus
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lithium+carbonate/sudden+death
Posted by Toph on May 8, 2013, at 7:19:24
In reply to Lou's warning-death and diabetes, posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 6:43:48
No sh*t Lou, that must be why I have a blood test every 3 months, thanks. Look Lou, I'm sorry I got pissed but as a person who lost 10 precious years of my life fighting my diagnosis and resisting lithium, I would appreciate you balancing your warnings (which are well known) with the benefits of this simple salt. Most of us can't give testimonials here of how the drug allows us to live normal, I mean completely normal, lives because we are living them as I will now after I grab my coffee and travel half way across Wisconsin to do assessments on two developmentally delayed individuals. Have a nice day Lou. And I apologize for letting you and Bob piss me off. Oh, and Dinah, powerlessness just seemed like more psycho babble at the time.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 7:41:41
In reply to Re: feeling powerless, posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2013, at 3:46:59
> > > I wonder if seeing me as empowering Lou might be connected with feeling powerless to change how I behave.
> >
> > Of course it does. This is the crux of the behavioral dynamic that produces the frustration and sense of powerlessness many of us feel here.
>
> > Nothing will change.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> > I personally have given up completely on being able to make any sort of difference here.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> There are things I feel powerless to change, too. Does anybody here have any tips on how to deal with feelings of powerlessness?
>
> --
>
> > I don't like to repeatedly invest the time and energy to contest your same litany of disinformation, exaggerations, and overgeneralizations. Historically, others have contested your assertions without your engaging them in a dialogue.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Lou may express what some posters fear. What would reassure those posters who feel afraid? If I were frightened of medication, I don't think blocking someone who expressed my fears would reassure me.
>
> A reassuring statement could be developed and reused, for example:
>
> > Almost any drug will cause death if not managed properly. It is true that drugs in general can cause death. Psychiatric drugs are not unique in this regard.
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294364
>
> Still, it takes repeated investments of time and energy to reassure other posters. I can see how that could get old. It takes repeated investments of time and energy to moderate Babble.
>
> --
>
> > C. There are two standards here, Lou.
> > F. It [may] be good for this community as a whole to leave your notifications outstanding, Lou
> >
> > Lou Pilder
>
> Lou,
>
> 1. I wonder if you feel powerless to change how I behave. If so, you and other posters may have something in common.
>
> 2. In a way, there are in fact different standards, because time to respond to notifications is limited:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#help
>
> 3. In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
>
> 4. I should be careful what I wish for, too, but I might address more of your concerns if someone else notified me of them. Does anybody else here share your concerns? The goal here is support. Do you feel supported here? Maybe by Scott?
>
> > I'm sorry that you feel hated.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> --
>
> > Be advised that it is well-known how hate groups are fostered in a community and the horrific damage to the members that the hate induces to those that are in those groups.
> > First, psychologists have studied how hate is formed in a community to make a hate-group. It is not a mystery and you do not have to be a mastermind to foster a hate-group. For hate can be a mask that the hater wares to hide their insecurities. And then the hate elevates the hater above the ones that they are hating, (in their own minds that is). Then the hater solicits others to hate the target so that they can get what they think is validation from others to elevate (falsely) their self-worth and to prevent others from exposing them as having personal insecurities.
> > The haters thinks that they will be empowered by being in a group which they believe becomes a shield to prevent accountability for their acts of hatred. Hate ties the group together with their common cause so that they can debase the object of their hate which they think will bolster their self-image.
> > This becomes fashionable in a group where hate toward others is allowed to stand. The haters blame the victim of their hate to justify the hate. Their minds can be taken over by them falsely thinking that they will be doing good by destroying their target of hate. And then the target is not allowed to stand up to the bullies with hatred toward them.
> >
> > Lou
>
> I wouldn't disagree with the above, though I wouldn't overgeneralize, either. I wonder:
>
> 1. What leads one subgroup to become hated instead of others?
>
> 2. I could imagine some of those in the hated subgroup starting to hate those in the hating subgroup. Would the above dynamics then also start to apply also to them?
>
> 3. How might such a cycle be broken?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,
[...in a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to...].
I am unsure as to what you do or doo not want posters to be led to believe by what you wrote here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
True or False
A. If it may be good, then it also may be bad for this community to see posts by you, Lou, don't have to be responded to
B. By me leaving your posts, Lou, that have requests to me outstanding , then I can control the content as to what I want others to consider to be supportive.
C. By leaving your requests to me outstanding, Lou, then readers could think that the ones that contain statements that you think could arouse anti-Semitic feelings could be thought by some to be supportive and will be god for this community as a whole
D. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, others could break my own rules here.
E. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, I could have more time to attend to pictures on the top of the page.
F. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, then Jews and Islamic people and others could have their faiths insulted and that will be good for this community as a whole.
G. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, that could encourage others to have hatred toward the Jews, and that will be good for this community as a whole.
H. By leaving all of the posts outstanding in this link, Lou, I can make it good for this community to think that (redacted by respondent)
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1042501.html
Posted by SLS on May 8, 2013, at 7:55:59
In reply to Lou's warning-anecdotal, posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 5:48:27
One of the most important functions of Psycho-Babble is to provide a forum for the sharing of personal experiences (anecdotes). People can glean information about treatments in real-life that is not readily available elsewhere. This includes miracles and catastrophes that may not be reported in the medical literature, despite well-scrutinized scientific observations. The value of anecdotal data is recognized by medicine as case reports (anecdotes) are ubiquitous in medical literature. These help with the often serendipitous discovery of new uses for old drugs. Testing hypotheses in proof-of-concept studies is often the motivation for more structured studies. Without the recognition and evaluation of anecdotal data, progress in medicine throughout history would have been stymied.
Regarding lithium, you fail to present statistics portraying the rate of incidence of the events you describe. Acetaminophen causes ruminant liver failure. However, this reaction is quite rare when the drug is taken as prescribed. Almost all of the cases of liver failure are due to overdose. Unfortunately, with lithium use, kidney and thyroid damage are adverse events that occur often enough to require frequent screenings to monitor for changes in function. However, the incidence of reduced kidney function is only 1.2% - 3.7%. Full renal failure occurs even less often.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19940841
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8376615
What are the consequences of discontinuing lithium? Sometimes, it is death.
"In conclusion, our biopsy-based study in a selected population of lithium-treated patients is not inconsistent with the consensus opinion that only a minority of patients receiving lithium will develop mild renal insufficiency due to lithium-associated CTIN. Furthermore, the importance of lithium for patients with affective disorders is underscored by the fact that one patient (patient 2) who discontinued lithium subsequently committed suicide."
http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/11/8/1439.full
Thyroid abnormalities occur more often than renal impairments, particularly in middle-aged women. Clinical hypothyroidism might occur in as much at 10% of people taking lithium. However, this can easily be treated with T4 thyroid hormone.
The incidence of kidney and thyroid side-effects are dose-dependent and a function of the duration of treatment. It is therefore important to monitor for changes in function and establish the lowest effective dose. The incidence of death due to lithium toxicity is rare (< 1.0%), and is usually the result of intentional overdose.
Please redirect any further discussion of clinical matters to the Medication board. Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 8, 2013, at 8:14:03
In reply to Lou's warning-death and diabetes, posted by Lou Pilder on May 8, 2013, at 6:43:48
> Lou
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lithium+carbonate/diabetes+millitus
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lithium+carbonate/sudden+deathStill using eHealthme? Didn't I already debunk that website? Perhaps you can try using Medline Pubmed for additional citations. Ironically, the eHealthme website uses anecdotal data almost exclusively, the great majority of which are reported to their site anonymously.
Medline Pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
- Scott
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