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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 18:13:33
In reply to pseudoname (trigger), posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2006, at 4:50:30
I've just been through a friend's
attempted suicide episode, and i
did not post it because nobody knowing
the person, it would just be
a trigger for those already on the edge.
I thought it would be very unthoughtful
and even harmful and would not do any good.I don't think that something this personal
should be posted, unless the person is known;
if it's somebody's friend, then perhaps the
e-mail can be sent confidentially. Or if
you wish to post the obituary from a newspaper
perhaps that would add a more personal touch
and reality. Start a file - OBITUARIES (maybe
with something about the person's life if the family agrees).Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Re: pseudoname (trigger) » Dr. Bob, posted by Squiggles on December 4, 2006, at 10:26:50
Dr. Hsiung, you call yourself a psychiatrist?
What if somebody posting here is
just about ready to kill themselves
and hasn't the wits to find the number,
type the words, or call for help, and
just sees this on the screen? When
you studied psychiatry, did they tell you
that people who are sick are very suggestible,
especially suicidally depressed people?
Have you ever heard of the Jones massacre,
and Heaven's Gate?Like i said, this should be done properly
under a different file - OBITUARIES - not with
a "trigger" sign -- as if that will prevent
people who are responsible for their own actions
from reading it - they are NOT responsible for their own actions when they are sick --- that is
the main problem with mental illness -- DOH!You are irresponsible if not unprofessional.
I think you are primarily interested in collecting statistics --for whom I'm not sure.
Squiggles
Posted by 10derHeart on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Re: pseudoname (trigger) » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 9:51:43
>>Like i said, this should be done properly
under a different file - OBITUARIES - not with
a "trigger" sign -- as if that will prevent
people who are responsible for their own actions
from reading it -But even if that was done, what would prevent people who are having suicidal ideation, etc., from checking in that other file, board, list, place or whatever, and still reading the exact same thing? I'm not sure how another location would help, as any place on the internet is available to anyone who may be in any amount of distress at any given moment.
I admire your passion and compassion, Squiggles, in caring so much about this issue because you see a potential danger to others. I wish we *could* somehow 100% protect the most vulnerable among us, but I don't think it's realistic. Not for Dr. Bob, not for anyone.
>>I think you are primarily interested in collecting statistics --for whom I'm not sure.
Just *knowing* Dr. Bob in the admittedly very small, limited aspects that I do, I disagree. The whole total of everything he has done in the past, and is doing now to keep this place going (growing, improving), to insist on civility, and so on, sends me the message his primary intrests run deeper and are more heartfelt than your statement allows. Obviously, I could be totally wrong, but then so could any of us when we ascribe motivations to others.
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Re: pseudoname (trigger) » Squiggles, posted by 10derHeart on December 6, 2006, at 13:39:30
It's one thing to go searching for a file
which takes some time, and another to have
a suicide or death (of whom, without details, and
left to your potentially suicidal imagination)
in-your-face.I think the time interval would be helpful.
Anyway, as for Dr. Bob's good character--
i have no reason to doubt it, nor any reason
to believe it. I have not seen his C.V.
or met him. He could be a Moonie for all
i know.Squiggles
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Re: pseudoname (trigger) » 10derHeart, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 14:12:15
> It's one thing to go searching for a file
> which takes some time, and another to have
> a suicide or death (of whom, without details, and
> left to your potentially suicidal imagination)
> in-your-face.
>
> I think the time interval would be helpful.
>
> Anyway, as for Dr. Bob's good character--
> i have no reason to doubt it, nor any reason
> to believe it. I have not seen his C.V.
> or met him. He could be a Moonie for all
> i know.
>
> SquigglesHi Squggles,
I saw your reference to [...Moonie...] and I was wondering if you are referring to the reverand Sun Myung Moon, the founder of the ,I think, the Unification Church?
If so, and if DR. Hsiung, let's say, could be known as to if he is a member of that church or not, could you clarify how that could be relevant to this discussion if he is a member or if he is not a member of that church?
Lou
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Lou's requestfor clarification-Squiggles-moonornot, posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 16:43:32
"as far as I know he could be a Moonie",
or a Satanist, or a Voodoo Healer....
it was a manner of speaking.... that
my request that deaths be announced in
another file, has nothing to do with
respect for his authority, whatever it
is, including, Academic.Squiggles
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Re: Lou's requestfor clarification-Squiggles-moono » Lou Pilder, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 16:47:55
> "as far as I know he could be a Moonie",
> or a Satanist, or a Voodoo Healer....
> it was a manner of speaking.... that
> my request that deaths be announced in
> another file, has nothing to do with
> respect for his authority, whatever it
> is, including, Academic.
>
> SquigglesSqiggles,
In your reply, I think that I am not familiar with all the [...manners of speaking...] here.
But could you clarify if by your citing the three things that you think DR. Hsiung could be here, that that means that a person that is in the church founded by the the Reverand Moon, if that is what you mean by a [....Moonie...], could be in the same catagory as a Satanist or Voodoo healer? And if that is so, could you clarify the relevance to the discussion as to if DR. Hsiung is or is not one of those?
I would like to join this discussion, so if you could clarify this for me, then I could have a better understanding of what the discussion entails and be better able to construct my post.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Re: Lou's requestfor clarification-Squiggles-moono » Lou Pilder, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 16:47:55
Sqiggles,
I have just been informed as to what the manner of speaking that you are using here means. I am sorry that Iwas not familiar with it at that time. I am not aquainted with all the comparisons and was interested in the aspect of if there is a connection to Dr. Hsiung being a member of the Unification Church or not to your post. I now think that what you are saying is that even if he is or is not, that there is this other issue that I just saw here in this thread and the reference is not a religious referrance to Dr. Hsiung's beliefs [...could be a Moonie...], am I correct?
Lou
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:03
In reply to Lou's requestfor clarification-Squiggles-vudu, posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 17:11:52
A "Moonie" is a member of the Unification
Church-- yes. I have no reason to believe
that Dr. Bob is "Moonie", but I have no
reason to believe that he is not. All I know
about him is that he is an Associatie Professor
at the University of Chicago. I have not
seen his C.V.But whatever he is, i believe that the practice
of posting deaths of people unknown, and whose
deaths can only be known by him and their friends,
is irresponsible. It is a practice that is
an emotional trigger for vulnerable, and suicidal
people here. Suicide triggers the imagination of unstable people-- it doesn't matter who they are or how they died (it could be a car accident) but as it is posted here anonymously, it is related to mental health. In darker tones, it is the kind of thing that acts as an emotional reinforcer.And last, it is disrespectful to post it so anonymously, with no obituary.
I just don't find it good psychiatric practice.
Squiggles
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:04
In reply to Re: Lou's requestfor clarification-Squiggles-vudu » Lou Pilder, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 17:24:48
Squiggles,
I am sorry to see this thread and have been reading it and waiting to post a contribution to it.
But now I see what your saying and I think that perhaps a dividing of the aspects to their referenced boards could be better for me to post my contribution here to this thread and maybe a deputy could do that?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 18:16:04
In reply to Re: Lou's requestfor clarification-Squiggles-vudu » Lou Pilder, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 17:24:48
Squiggles and friends,
It is written here,[...irresponsible...disrespectfull...I don't find it a good psychiatric practice...]
I can understand different perspectives to the having a thread when a member dies. And in defence of DR. Hsiung here, I can not say that there is any best way for a virtual community to absorb the magnitude of the shock and grief that arrises out of the notice of the death of a member here. There could be an enormous weight to some here. As to how Dr. Hsiung can handle this situation here for the members, I can not fault him, for I can not offer any better.
I think that those that are feeling the weight of shock and grief, that they individually seek their own understanding. I do not think that this forum could have the understanding for all members for this very sad day.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2006, at 18:41:17
In reply to Lou in defence of Dr. Hsiung-, posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 17:56:54
I understand the worry about false reporting of deaths. I'd certainly hate to come back from vacation or a babble break and find that I've been declared dead. But, even in death, there are privacy concerns. I don't know if requirements should be made in these situations, but perhaps it could be encouraged for those to report the deaths to ask for a link to an obituary, although from what I can see, those are only available for a few days in the papers online. That could be forwarded to Dr. Bob only, to preserve the anonymity of the poster. Although come to think of it, that wouldn't prove anything, since Dr. Bob doesn't know our real names anyway, and an obituary doesn't connect in any way with a posting name. Maybe to some extent, we have to rely on the goodness of our fellow man.
I'm not minimizing the reality of suicide contagion, in the case of suicides, in the world in general. But suicides are still reported, even in situations where suicide contagion is even more likely than here. It was a major concern to me after sar's death, particularly.
But Dr. Bob can't take responsibility for every poster's reaction to anything at all that happens here. Suicide contagion isn't the only possible response to a suicide. In my case, I battle suicidal ideation frequently. But when I hear about someone's death from suicide, it's a shock to me, and my thoughts are of all that person had to offer, and what a loss it was to the world. So it's sort of a reality check to me. It's all too easy for me to think of suicide as escape. Reality checks put a little stop button in my brain, to think of it as something more.
In the end, I think my thoughts are this. Babble for some is a resource. They come and find information and move on. But for others, Babble is a community. Part of a community is celebrating victories and mourning losses. And in reporting a death from whatever cause, we're not only acknowledging the death and the loss to the community, but we're also acknowledging the person and the contribution they made to the community. The lives they've touched. The differences they've made to us. And in turn, we're acknowledging the same things about the posters who remain. Posters matter. Your life matters. Your contributions matter. You would be missed if you were gone.
Perhaps we ought to all remember to say those things more often while people are alive. But if you forbid death announcements, it seems to me it's not acknowledging the value of the person in life.
And for those who think death is romantic, and people would miss them if they're gone, I'd remind them that life is valuable, the ability to contribute is valuable, and they are appreciated if they're *here*.
For whatever it's worth, which isn't much. And it's just my viewpoint and I have no desire to defend or debate it. Take it if it's helpful, ignore it if it isn't.
Posted by Phillipa on December 6, 2006, at 19:10:32
In reply to My thoughts, for what little they're worth, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2006, at 18:41:17
Dinah very well said. The one I posted I sent e-mail copies to Dr. Bob first. I didn't wait for his approval to post what I did as his Mother wanted me to inform his friends. And that was SAV's. Love Phillipa ps I e-mailed copies of the link daily to her. We spoke again last night via e-mail. A lovely lady.
Posted by 10derHeart on December 6, 2006, at 19:50:48
In reply to Lou in defence of Dr. Hsiung-, posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2006, at 17:56:54
>>I think that those that are feeling the weight of shock and grief, that they individually seek their own understanding. I do not think that this forum could have the understanding for all members for this very sad day.
Lou, thank you for posting these words.
I met Pseudoname in Toronto. I don't know what I'm thinking or feeling right now.
:-(
:-(
:-(
Posted by gardenergirl on December 6, 2006, at 23:02:24
In reply to Re: Lou , feeling the weight » Lou Pilder, posted by 10derHeart on December 6, 2006, at 19:50:48
Wise words from Lou.
I'm glad you got to meet him, 10derheart. I wish I had the opportunity. (wan smile)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 6, 2006, at 23:05:21
In reply to My thoughts, for what little they're worth, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2006, at 18:41:17
> And in reporting a death from whatever cause, we're not only acknowledging the death and the loss to the community, but we're also acknowledging the person and the contribution they made to the community. The lives they've touched. The differences they've made to us. And in turn, we're acknowledging the same things about the posters who remain. Posters matter. Your life matters. Your contributions matter. You would be missed if you were gone.
Very well put, Dinah. And fyi, you matter.
I hope everyone stays safe and seeks support if this and other recent events are proving difficult to cope with.
gg
Posted by zazenduckie on December 7, 2006, at 10:31:07
In reply to Re: pseudoname (trigger) » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2006, at 9:51:43
>
> What if somebody posting here is
> just about ready to kill themselves
> and hasn't the wits to find the number,
> type the words, or call for help, and
> just sees this on the screen? When
> you studied psychiatry, did they tell you
> that people who are sick are very suggestible,
> especially suicidally depressed people?Thanks for your concern for the most vulnerable members of this community. I also consider part of the community those who read but do not post. And thanks for your courage in speaking out. I think your point is quite valid.
I'm also sorry for your personal experience with your friend. That is so difficult. I think many people may not realize how traumatizing suicide is for everyone touched by it. I hope you're ok.
>
> Like i said, this should be done properly
> under a different file - OBITUARIES - not with
> a "trigger" sign --
Even the grief board would seem more appropriate after a death was verified and if the poster had previously expressed a wish that the board be notified.
>
>
>
> I think you are primarily interested in collecting statistics --for whom I'm not sure.
>
>I can understand how you might feel this way.
I felt manipulated myself after reading online his "professional" presentation about how he handles death on his online board. I hope these latest tragedies don't turn up in his next "professional" presentation.
You are a valuable member of this community. I'm sorry if this is causing pain to you.
Posted by Squiggles on December 7, 2006, at 11:38:32
In reply to You're worth a great deal » Squiggles, posted by zazenduckie on December 7, 2006, at 10:31:07
> >
> > What if somebody posting here is
> > just about ready to kill themselves
> > and hasn't the wits to find the number,
> > type the words, or call for help, and
> > just sees this on the screen? When
> > you studied psychiatry, did they tell you
> > that people who are sick are very suggestible,
> > especially suicidally depressed people?
>
> Thanks for your concern for the most vulnerable members of this community. I also consider part of the community those who read but do not post. And thanks for your courage in speaking out. I think your point is quite valid.
>
> I'm also sorry for your personal experience with your friend. That is so difficult. I think many people may not realize how traumatizing suicide is for everyone touched by it. I hope you're ok.
>
>
> >
> > Like i said, this should be done properly
> > under a different file - OBITUARIES - not with
> > a "trigger" sign --
>
>
> Even the grief board would seem more appropriate after a death was verified and if the poster had previously expressed a wish that the board be notified.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I think you are primarily interested in collecting statistics --for whom I'm not sure.
> >
> >
>
> I can understand how you might feel this way.
>
> I felt manipulated myself after reading online his "professional" presentation about how he handles death on his online board. I hope these latest tragedies don't turn up in his next "professional" presentation.
>
> You are a valuable member of this community. I'm sorry if this is causing pain to you.
>
>Thanks Zazenduckie,
Now will someone get me unsubscribed from
this board? It's sophisticated for my
character.I'd appreciate that.
Squiggles
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2006, at 11:44:04
In reply to Re: You're worth a great deal » zazenduckie, posted by Squiggles on December 7, 2006, at 11:38:32
There is no subscription, so there is no unsubscribing. You can clear the cookies from this site if you like. But I have to confess to not being sure how to do that.
I'm sorry you were distressed.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 7, 2006, at 17:58:54
In reply to Re: You're worth a great deal » Squiggles, posted by Dinah on December 7, 2006, at 11:44:04
I'm glad that it was made public. I was worried about pseudo, and I knew he was hurting.
Knowing about his death has made it possible for me to begin grieving him.
I have one administrative question. It's difficult for me to put this in dry administrative terms. I would like to share some excerpts from pseudo's last babblemail to me. I would omit anything that would betray info that isn't already posted by pseudo elsewhere on p-babble, of course. I respect him very much, and understand that he valued his privacy. I have two reasons for posting it (if deemed appropriate)
First, I would like to show that pseudo was a very caring person, even when he was hurting so much.
Second, I am having a hard time processing his death, and would like some support.
Posted by zazenduckie on December 7, 2006, at 18:19:10
In reply to Thank you for posting about P » Dinah, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 7, 2006, at 17:58:54
See FAQ
"Please do not....disclose without permission information that identifies or private communications from another poster"
>
> I have one administrative question. It's difficult for me to put this in dry administrative terms. I would like to share some excerpts from pseudo's last babblemail to me. I would omit anything that would betray info that isn't already posted by pseudo elsewhere on p-babble, of course. I respect him very much, and understand that he valued his privacy.Let's value it too then.
>I have two reasons for posting it (if deemed appropriate)
>
> First, I would like to show that pseudo was a very caring person, even when he was hurting so much.I don't think anyone has any doubt at all about that.
>
> Second, I am having a hard time processing his death, and would like some support.I am sure others would be willing to offer you support without the necessity to post private emails. Or if you absolutely NEED to share his email there is always babblemail or chat.
Sorry you"re having a hard time.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 7, 2006, at 18:24:59
In reply to Please respect the privacy of others » LlurpsieBlossom, posted by zazenduckie on December 7, 2006, at 18:19:10
Hi Zazenduckie,
I think you're right.:(
Posted by zazenduckie on December 7, 2006, at 19:06:20
In reply to others » zazenduckie, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 7, 2006, at 18:24:59
I hope I didn't sound harsh. I didn't mean to. I'm glad you were a friend to him. I'm sorry you feel bad. Me too.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 7, 2006, at 21:12:00
In reply to Re: others » LlurpsieBlossom, posted by zazenduckie on December 7, 2006, at 19:06:20
Zazenduckie, I know you didn't mean to sound harsh. The important thing is that you are correct about this matter. Rules are harsh sometimes. That's not your fault.
I'm not used to these feelings. I've been so numb or emotionally stunted for so many months (years?). To feel honest grief and sadness is at once amazing and terrifying. Tears that feel natural and okay. So different from my last 10,000 tears spilled. My judgement is off, that's why I asked first. I'm glad I did.
-Ll
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2006, at 13:45:55
In reply to Thank you for posting about P » Dinah, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 7, 2006, at 17:58:54
> I have one administrative question. ... I would like to share some excerpts from pseudo's last babblemail to me. I would omit anything that would betray info that isn't already posted by pseudo elsewhere on p-babble, of course.
I think the question is whether he would be OK with that if we could ask him. What do you think, based on your contact with him? I could also ask his friend...
Bob
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