![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 223 to 247 of 412. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2006, at 17:07:39
In reply to Re: Trigger POLICY, posted by Larry Hoover on March 20, 2006, at 8:20:31
Lar, what I'm afraid of is that the integrated whole vision in your head is likely to cause you to be angry and hurt if it doesn't coincide with the integrated whole vision in Dr. Bob's head. And he's already said it doesn't.
It seems like a big collision waiting to happen. Because in the end, Babble is Dr. Bob's site and Dr. Bob's vision. We can argue and encourage those things that we think are worth arguing and encouraging. But in the end it's up to him.
And that's as it should be. For as long as he owns and runs this site, and takes responsibility for it. As Dr. Laura says, the power comes with the responsibility. And as it says at the bottom of each page "Owned and operated by Robert Hsiung and not the University of Chicago." And not by posters either.
I hate to see you get hurt, Lar, by expecting more than is possible.
Believe me, Lar. I know of which I speak.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 20, 2006, at 18:56:28
In reply to Re: Trigger POLICY » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2006, at 17:07:39
> I hate to see you get hurt, Lar, by expecting more than is possible.
Yes, thank you, I know.
This may seem obtuse to observers thus far, but I don't want to see Dr. Bob get hurt, either. However, it is his obtuse character that is at issue, ultimately. He will did not discuss things in a civil manner. He is the most uncivil entity in this place. It is his incivility that creates my anger.
It's not about competing visions, in the end. It's about feeling that he is even listening. I can't get there from what he has given me. So, what am I left with?
I don't need to be right. I don't have any presumption that my vision will be acceptable to anyone, let alone Dr. Bob. It would be nice, though, if he deigned to play by his own rules.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2006, at 19:33:59
In reply to Re: Trigger POLICY » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on March 20, 2006, at 18:56:28
I know what it's like to want Dr. Bob to reflect back what I'm saying in a way that I recognize that he is understanding me. And it sometimes takes a while to get there. But it is possible if you keep trying.
I trust that Dr. Bob can take care of himself. But I remind you that the civility rules apply to comments about him as well.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 20, 2006, at 23:17:57
In reply to Re: Trigger POLICY » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2006, at 19:33:59
> I know what it's like to want Dr. Bob to reflect back what I'm saying in a way that I recognize that he is understanding me. And it sometimes takes a while to get there. But it is possible if you keep trying.
Do you want copies of the dozens of emails I sent him? His replies, with one sentence of my post quoted, with some inane comment?
> I trust that Dr. Bob can take care of himself. But I remind you that the civility rules apply to comments about him as well.
Certainly. And thank you.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 1:51:12
In reply to ((((Dr. Bob)))), posted by Gabbix2 on March 16, 2006, at 11:14:39
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:18:38
In reply to Re: Posting more difficult » itsme2003, posted by Larry Hoover on March 16, 2006, at 11:55:46
> she accused me of felony criminal conduct, and other uncivil things. ... She called me a criminal
> her uncivil comments
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused. Sorry, but I'm going to block you from posting for 6 weeks again.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person. And I don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please also get help in person. You may also wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
> Clearing most of the mines from a minefield would not make me feel safe to walk there. Putting up a sign warning me away from the minefield would.
Warning: Larry, this site might be a minefield for you.
> Moderators or interested Babblers would have to "pick up after" posters who didn't comply?
Think of it as Babblers looking out for each other?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:19:29
In reply to Re: upbeat, educational, non-punitive, kind, CIVIL » Dr. Bob, posted by thuso on March 16, 2006, at 16:22:56
> > > you could set up a filter that would look for certain words and phrases and if they exist in a message, then you could turn on a flag within that message.
>
> It's a nice idea, but I don't think it would work in this case. The words we're throwing around are too easily used in a sentence that has absolutely nothing to do with anybody's trigger.I know, there might not be any way to do it automatically, but OTOH, this is a creative group...
> [no] auto-triggering threads unless there is a manual way to un-trigger a thread.
For example, what about that? :-) It would be like turning automatic asterisking off...
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:19:34
In reply to They were ruined for me because ..., posted by itsme2003 on March 16, 2006, at 17:00:45
> > In what way were they ruined for you?
>
> Let's just say that it involves the tyranny of the minority, whining, creative ideas about how anything can be triggering, crying wolf, narcissism trumping content, bullying and controlling behaviors, The Princess And The Pea, some people feeling their problems are more wothy of respect than others, and warning fatigue.
>
> I see a lot of energy wasted here because of the civility rules, and I would hate to see the waste expanded by having triggering rules that invite some of the same problem areas that I have cited above.Thanks for replying. There seem to be 2 separate issues. First, administrative discussions. Which I agree would probably take place, but which could at least be concentrated here at Admin. And which might not always lead to the outcomes people wanted, but IMO wouldn't necessarily be a waste, either.
> If every post on the board is triggering then what possible benefit could be obtained by warning about each post.
And second, the overuse of warnings would render them unhelpful. I agree, it could go too far in either direction. If there aren't warnings when there should be, it would be nice to be able to add them, and if there are when there shouldn't be, it would be nice to be able to remove them.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:19:37
In reply to Re: Trigger warnings as POLICY » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2006, at 23:21:25
> How about for now, trigger warnings become site policy, strongly encouraged but leaving punishment details (if any) for later.
>
> There could be something in the FAQ describing what a trigger is and why the posts should be flagged.
>
> AuntieMel> That would be kind of good in a lot of ways, in that there would be more community involvement in the evolution of standards.
>
> And if it doesn't work out, Dr. Bob could always adjust things. Which would be easier than reversing a policy written in stone, I think. Or at least it seems that way to me.
>
> DinahI agree, let's move in that direction, but I still think it would be better to start with some sort of guideline -- not written in stone! -- regarding what to consider likely enough to be a trigger to warrant a warning...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2006, at 7:43:35
In reply to Re: Trigger warnings as POLICY, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:19:37
Ok, I'll start with a specific suggestion, to move things along.
I suggest that trigger warnings be site policy for any graphic description of self injury, suicide, physical or sexual abuse. Or any evocative expression of those things or how they make you feel. I know poetry about self injury can be very triggering, in the sense of evoking in others the desire to self injure. "Graphic" of course is up for debate, but imo simple mentions of the words shouldn't be enough. Others' opinions may vary.
I also think there should be warnings attached to any post expressing a desire to self injure or commit suicide, especially if they contain a method. Except maybe for things like "I'm having these pesky suicidal ideations." that don't actually express intent.
Posted by verne on March 21, 2006, at 9:00:45
In reply to Re: Trigger POLICY » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on March 20, 2006, at 23:17:57
Larry,
Just imagine you're on a six-week vacation cruise. No more walls to bang your head into or rocks to roll up hill. I envy you.
Meanwhile, I'll be hard at work complaining about the pea beneath the mattress.
take care,
Verne
Posted by AuntieMel on March 21, 2006, at 9:26:54
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:18:38
The one-week cooling off blocks you were talking about? It seems that this would be a good time to see if that works.
Posted by Deneb on March 21, 2006, at 10:32:58
In reply to Take Care of Yourself » Larry Hoover, posted by verne on March 21, 2006, at 9:00:45
Hey Lar,
I hope you are okay. It might be a good idea to focus your attention on doing fun things in real life for the next couple of weeks.
Please be well and take care of yourself. You're loved here. We love you Lar. Please stay safe.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2006, at 11:47:35
In reply to Re: Trigger POLICY » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on March 20, 2006, at 23:17:57
Take care, Lar. And you know where to find me if you want to, for any reason at all.
(I don't need copies of your emails. I have a fair number of my own. It can be enormously frustrating, I know. I try to look at it as the flip side of Dr. Bob's better qualities, like his unflappability.)
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 21, 2006, at 13:24:36
In reply to Re: thanks :-) (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 1:51:12
Posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 15:53:00
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:18:38
Hi Doctor.
> her uncivil comments
I don't know why this phrase deserved to be judged uncivil. Isn't it a mirror image of what you say to others here all the time by judging their posts uncivil and doing the PBC/blocking thing?
Perhaps I need a tweaking of my civility radar. I haven't needed to use it for quite some time.
It might be enlightening and constructive for you to describe why Larry's comment was uncivil. I would like to know so that I might better understand the guidelines for communicating with civility.
Do you feel that Larry's comment is tantamount to labelling someone as being an uncivil person?
- Scott
Posted by ClearSkies on March 21, 2006, at 16:02:34
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:18:38
Can I ask why you didn't give Our Dearest Lar a PBC or a request for rephrase? Isn't this the process for escalation to a block???
I'se very confused. What's up with this?
Thank you,ClearSkies
Posted by Deneb on March 21, 2006, at 16:33:42
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Dr. Bob, posted by ClearSkies on March 21, 2006, at 16:02:34
> Can I ask why you didn't give Our Dearest Lar a PBC or a request for rephrase? Isn't this the process for escalation to a block???
>
> I'se very confused. What's up with this?
> Thank you,
>
> ClearSkiesI've not gotten many PBCs, maybe two or even only one? I mostly get blocks. I think a warning is only guaranteed the first time you are uncivil. After that, you can get blocked without a warning. At least that's what happens to me. :-(
Are certain acts of incivility worse than other ones? How come I don't get warnings? I don't even remember what I got blocked for. Does anyone know?
Deneb*
Posted by zenhussy on March 21, 2006, at 16:45:19
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Dr. Bob, posted by ClearSkies on March 21, 2006, at 16:02:34
> Can I ask why you didn't give Our Dearest Lar a PBC or a request for rephrase? Isn't this the process for escalation to a block???
> I'se very confused. What's up with this?
> Thank you,
> ClearSkiesThis is the timeline for this mega long thread and the PBCs, PRTs and so forth. Once a poster has a record like Larry's they are presumed to know the rules and are not given the same warnings as "new rule breakers". Larry has had numerous PBCs, PRTs, PBSs and blocks over his years here. Based on that history Dr. Bob doesn't give warnings as he's already spent years giving warnings of a similar nature to Dear Lar. We find no reason for confusion with this administrative action as it follows the history of admin. decisions made on this site.
********
Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 4:48:35In reply to My apologies, fellow Babblers, posted by Larry Hoover on March 5, 2006, at 10:11:56
> I thought I could speak calmly about this topic, but I have discovered that it is too upsetting. I find myself taking on individual posters, instead of debating the merits. I am truly sorry.
I'm glad you see that happening. However:
> Is it civil, to knowingly ignore the provocative nature of your posts? Even when you know what happens because of it? Is it civil to sow emotional land-mines on the Boards of Babble? And, what is your harvest?
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
But please also don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/616516.html
********Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 7:57:24In reply to Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 4:48:35
I shall. Thanks, Bob.
Lar
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/616529.html
********Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 9:03:51In reply to Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 4:48:35
In response to a *joke* about George Bush (who I bet has never even heard of this place), you admonish the poster with a PBC:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20060304/msgs/616456.html
And, in that admonishment, you specifically ask the poster to "be sensitive to their feelings".
Why on Earth am I having such a difficult time obtaining that same consideration, and protection?
Why?
I'm not hypothetical. I really do read posts here. I really do have my feelings hurt, over and over again. I'm not the only one, if you read this thread with even one eye open. Why are *you* not sensitive to the feelings of others, Dr. Bob? Why do I have to beg?
Lar
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/616547.html
********Re: thanks (nm) » Larry Hoover
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 13:33:21In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 7:57:24
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/616644.html
********Re: hurt feelings
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 13:33:26In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 9:03:51
> I'm not hypothetical. I really do read posts here. I really do have my feelings hurt, over and over again.
I'm sorry if you feel I'm turning my back on you. Would you at least agree that this would be a step in the right direction?
Bob
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/616645.html
********Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33In reply to Re: Am I the only one? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 13:37:13
> Just knowing that it is the policy that someone cares whether or not I get triggered, and backs that up with some kind of authority, is very supportive. It helps me bounce back. It doesn't help me in the moment of finding the land-mine, but it helps afterwards.
It can be important to feel cared about by someone with authority. I understand that. I'm sorry you don't feel that here.
> > Plus, as I mentioned before, retroactive flagging could in fact be an option.
>
> And how do I know when that task has been completedYou can't know for sure, but on a busy board, give it a day?
> Would it be reasonable to toss a box of condoms into the lap of a woman who was seeking treatment after having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive man, and send her on her way, confident that all was well?
Would it have been reasonable, if condoms had been available, for her not to have used them because she considered them, um, barriers to participation?
> I don't want the job, as I said.
That's OK, others are willing to do it.
> I'm glad to see that you accept the idea of a core list of trigger subjects. That's big progress already.
Thanks, one step at a time...
> you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/617812.html
********Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
> > you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?I used an abstract structure, and expressly selected the definition I intended, and I don't know what more to do that still has anything the meaning I wanted to convey. I can't think of a rephrasing. Will an apology do? I'm sorry I made uncivil inferences about anybody.
Now, would you please just let me go?
I'm a stranger in a strange land. Why couldn't I simply accept that if people heard me cry out for help, that it would be enough? I never had anybody just listen to me about a selfish thing. There was always a gauntlet to run, and I never once made it through. So, I am unprepared for how to do that simple thing. I put on the whole TV campaign, and wrote speeches. I was gearing up to march on the Capital....
That was intended to be self-deprecating humour, the last post I made to Jen. My way of acknowledging what a PITA I can be.
I *need* to go now.
Lar
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/617852.html
********Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:51:28In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
How about "those who don't get triggered"
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/617867.html
********Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 3:18:38In reply to Re: Posting more difficult » itsme2003, posted by Larry Hoover on March 16, 2006, at 11:55:46
> she accused me of felony criminal conduct, and other uncivil things. ... She called me a criminal
> her uncivil comments
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused. Sorry, but I'm going to block you from posting for 6 weeks again.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person. And I don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please also get help in person. You may also wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
> Clearing most of the mines from a minefield would not make me feel safe to walk there. Putting up a sign warning me away from the minefield would.
Warning: Larry, this site might be a minefield for you.
> Moderators or interested Babblers would have to "pick up after" posters who didn't comply?
Think of it as Babblers looking out for each other?
Bob
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060317/msgs/622754.html
Posted by ClearSkies on March 21, 2006, at 16:51:39
In reply to Re: ample warnings and chances given » ClearSkies, posted by zenhussy on March 21, 2006, at 16:45:19
I've haven't figured out if anybody ever knew whether their history follows them or not...
best wishes always,
ClearSkies
Posted by zenhussy on March 21, 2006, at 16:57:27
In reply to Thank you, Zen!, posted by ClearSkies on March 21, 2006, at 16:51:39
golly! this is news? based on time spent participating here and friendships forged we'd guess you and other longer time babblers would be able to see clear patterns of the doc's admin policies. our presentation was only to show yet another example of Dr. Bob giving ample chances and opportunities for a member to fall within the "current FAQ guidelines of civility".
we're sure there are years of similar types of threads from different posters showing the same admin actions of PBC, PRT, then blocking.
we don't have the link currently but Dr. Bob himself has said something to the effect of previous history has a major effect on how he bases his decisions.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2006, at 17:00:59
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 15:53:00
> What ever happened to
> The one-week cooling off blocks you were talking about? It seems that this would be a good time to see if that works.
>
> AuntieMelIt might or might not, let's discuss it with the other deputies.
> > her uncivil comments
>
> I don't know why this phrase deserved to be judged uncivil. Isn't it a mirror image of what you say to others here all the time
>
> - ScottIt is, but my role here is administrative.
Bob
Posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 17:03:19
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 15:53:00
Perhaps to deem one's words to be uncivil is to imply that one's intent was to be uncivil?
Is it the judging of intent that is the key to understanding this sanction?
Gotta think about this one some more.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 17:23:42
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » SLS, posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 17:03:19
I'm really not trying to be a wise guy. I'm just trying to dissect this thing so as to understand and perhaps demonstrate the concept of civility as it is practiced here. I'm not looking to imply that there is a paradox.
I think I can understand:
"her uncivil comments"
> Perhaps to deem one's words to be uncivil is to imply that one's intent was to be uncivil?
>
> Is it the judging of intent that is the key to understanding this sanction?I guess to judge that one's intent is to be uncivil is to imply that the person is himself uncivil - an uncivil person. To call someone uncivil is to put them down.
> Gotta think about this one some more.
I think I got the idea.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 17:26:16
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » SLS, posted by SLS on March 21, 2006, at 17:03:19
Sorry...
- Scott
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