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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tamar on March 5, 2006, at 8:52:41
In reply to Re: 5 » Tamar, posted by Gabbix2 on March 4, 2006, at 22:40:33
Thanks for your comments, Gabbi.
> Every topic has the potential to hurt someone
> No matter how it's put.Yeah, that makes sense.
> Discussing politics upsets people, that's why some people make a vow not to discuss it, but it seems to me that foreign policy is about as removed from the personal as it is possible to get when discussing politics.
Fair enough.
> I didn't see a precedent for what happened to 5
> I have understood the problems in previous posts But that post.. well its a mystery to me. And I don't think it's fair (if the block was because of the tone of previous posts) to make the leap that no more criticism of the U.S would be tolerated by the poster.. just well..cause people are getting tired of it from you.Yeah, I think the issue of precedent is important. And I definitely think it should be possible to understand why a block has been given.
Sorry, I really shouldn’t have stuck my oar in on this one. Don’t know what came over me. I don’t have a leg to stand on, actually… My chief interest is in the question of what it might take to be able to critique US foreign policy without eliciting outrage. I am often astonished at how strongly people feel about it. But then, I regularly critique the foreign policy of my own government, so maybe I just don’t understand how it feels to support my country’s foreign policy wholeheartedly …
Right, I’ll stop now! I hope I haven’t upset or angered anyone… I really wasn’t trying to.
Tamar
Posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 10:17:12
In reply to Re: 5 » Gabbix2, posted by Tamar on March 5, 2006, at 8:52:41
My chief interest is in the question of what it might take to be able to critique US foreign policy without eliciting outrage. I am often astonished at how strongly people feel about it. But then, I regularly critique the foreign policy of my own government, so maybe I just don’t understand how it feels to support my country’s foreign policy wholeheartedly …>>
I am a U.S. citizen, and it seems fundamental to my sense of being one that critiques of its foreign policy be as free as possible (right of free speech). It outrages me that such critiques be out of bounds. It is not a matter of my supporting or rejecting a given aspect of U.S. foreign policy, but the sense of respect that I have for the laws and way of life of this country.
-z
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 10:36:21
In reply to Re: 5 » Tamar, posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 10:17:12
I've said this a few times and feel like I'm spitting in the wind a bit. But policy can always be critiqued. The problem comes in when you use negative words to describe countries or peoples, or if you say or strongly imply that anyone who believes in a certain policy is (insert negative comment here).
Posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 11:00:49
In reply to Policy as opposed to people, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 10:36:21
> I've said this a few times and feel like I'm spitting in the wind a bit. But policy can always be critiqued. The problem comes in when you use negative words to describe countries or peoples, or if you say or strongly imply that anyone who believes in a certain policy is (insert negative comment here).>>
ah yes. But policies are the actions of people, whether directly (through political figures' own actions) or indirectly (through voting). And if I say that political figure X is violating the Constitution, or repeatedly engaging in policies that are inhumane and serve no policy ends other than the self-interest of a narrow group of individuals who have investments in corporations that profit from such policies, I suppose it's allright to detail the truth of these assertions without implying anything negative about either the individuals performing the acts or the people who vote for them.
You're not spitting in the wind, this discussion is getting somewhere. My difficulty is this: that the above statement, in the last sentence of the above paragraph, is not really coherent.
Because it's hard to allege that policies are deeply and systematically misguided without implying something, if not outright saying, negative about the individual(s) performing the acts.
I agree that invective directed against countries as a whole is not a good thing, chiefly because of its extreme inaccuracy, much like religious and racial stereotypes are forms of erroneous speech whose main effect is to stir up trouble.
But those who engage in specific policies, they are identifying themselves through their policies, it is why politics has a moral dimension and is not simply a game of chess, where we can comment on moves as functions of the players' skills without implying anything, anything at all, about wisdom or lack thereof, respect for life or lack thereof, respect for its citizens or lack thereof.
-z
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 11:09:44
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people » Dinah, posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 11:00:49
Well, as you know, it is against Babble policy to declare that those Babblers (known or unknown) who declare their core essence through their adherence to one policy or another to be lacking in wisdom, lack of respect for life or others. Any more than it would be in keeping with Babble policy to comment on someone's lack of wisdom, lack of respect for life or others, for any reason other than the policies they believe in.
No matter what you believe the truth to be.
And since reasonable people can disagree on perfectly good grounds about even the most heated of debate topics, why is it not possible to merely state what you believe and to express a lack of understanding for other beliefs.
But I am spitting in the wind. Because I distinctly remember saying tis over and over and over again, and I find I'm boring myself. :)
Posted by verne on March 5, 2006, at 11:16:28
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 11:09:44
Dinah,
I agree. I like what you be saying.
Verne
Posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 11:55:39
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 11:09:44
> Well, as you know, it is against Babble policy to declare that those Babblers (known or unknown) who declare their core essence through their adherence to one policy or another to be lacking in wisdom, lack of respect for life or others. Any more than it would be in keeping with Babble policy to comment on someone's lack of wisdom, lack of respect for life or others, for any reason other than the policies they believe in.
>
> No matter what you believe the truth to be.
>
> And since reasonable people can disagree on perfectly good grounds about even the most heated of debate topics, why is it not possible to merely state what you believe and to express a lack of understanding for other beliefs.>>because stating what i believe, on certain topics, would be uncivil, by the criteria of this site. So would most of the utterances found in my local newspapers that are of an editorial nature, or those of newspapers from different locales. Now you've said previously that politics blocks result from people misunderstanding its nature, or as I will charitably put it, understanding its nature but saying things not suited to its nature regardless of the consequences.
To write on the Politics board really does require an approach more like that expressed in the Chess section of my local newspaper (that is currently suing the Federal government, a fact that has me upset, angry, and inclined to say uncivil things about the way the -, but I won't, because I understand too well the nature of the forum I am in) than the editorial page.
Rather unnatural.
Well, I'm not only boring myself and others, I'm getting very upset, as well.
By the way (and maybe I'm reading too much into it) but it was gracious of you not to put my name in the subject of your second reply to me. It was courteous.
The little things matter so much.
but anyway, the issue is not my own problems here, but 5's, or 8's, or 7 of 9's <sudden starry-eyed look>. I can't help thinking that the gracious things you've said... (ellipsis is there because neither you nor I are optimists, no other reason).
-z
>
> But I am spitting in the wind. Because I distinctly remember saying tis over and over and over again, and I find I'm boring myself. :)
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 12:13:57
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people, posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 11:55:39
I do believe little things matter a lot.
And so I wanted to clarify that while I may be boring myself, I in no way find others' continued discussion of this boring.
:)
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 12:18:35
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people, posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 11:55:39
And I also want to add that I've found your discussions of your frustrations over not being able to post freely on the Politics board while following the civility guidelines to be wonderfully civil, and yes, gracious.
Which leads me to have confidence that you could do the same with the actual policies.
But perhaps I'm missing the point somewhere along the line. I often have that problem.
Posted by JenStar on March 5, 2006, at 13:03:06
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 11:09:44
Dinah,
you're right! -- but I think that in the heat of the moment, it's hard for people in general to grasp the difference between the two ways of stating something. It's a huge difference, but it's also subtle in a way -- and it takes practice to really "get" the difference (I think.)And it takes some time to be able to still *feel* your argument with the same passion when it's worded in the more civil way - I think one has to develop a love of the civil argument style to be able to do it regularly without slipping up. And for some people it might just feel more personally satisfying to make personalized attacks against a country or leader because they are so angry at that country/leader, and because it feels more satisfying, they are not that invested in learning to use the more civil argumentation style. Especially if elsewhere in the "real world" they are accustomed to using the more personal style.
so you are sort of spitting in the wind, I guess. Just duck so the spit doesn't get back on you. :) And know that there are people who get it and are starting to get it, even if we don't always do it perfectly. So - some of the spit is getting to where you want it!
JenStar
Posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 13:15:45
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people » zeugma, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 12:18:35
> And I also want to add that I've found your discussions of your frustrations over not being able to post freely on the Politics board while following the civility guidelines to be wonderfully civil, and yes, gracious.>>
I am flattered by that. Because I consider you to be the model of graciousness :-)
>
> Which leads me to have confidence that you could do the same with the actual policies. >well, your confidence may be misplaced, but the fact that you are one of its representatives (in your role as deputy to Dr. Bob) does, genuinely, help to alleviate some of my spleen when I direct my thought to political matters (sorry for using the old-fashioned expression, it does sound better than 'ill temper') and so more productive of civil discourse as defined here.
The high quality of conversation at this site, as well as the value that I think it has in others' lives, not just mine, is why I get most upset: that others get blocked, rightly or not, who are valuable contributors as well as valuable people.
what was my point? Yes, now I remember. Tamar said that she didn't understand why politicial matters seem to inflame sensitivities so much here. I think we are in as polarized an atmosphere as the U.S. has had since the Vietnam war and the social unrest of those times. That's just my interpretation. I've been avoiding the Politics board and not reading the news before going to sleep, and it's lowered my anxiety considerably.
not sure what my point is anymore. But damn, this coffee is good.
-z
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 5, 2006, at 13:24:56
In reply to Re: 5 » Gabbix2, posted by Tamar on March 5, 2006, at 8:52:41
> Thanks for your comments, Gabbi.
> > Right, I’ll stop now! I hope I haven’t upset or angered anyone… I really wasn’t trying to.
Well, You didn't anger or upset me in the least.
I'm always impressed by how thoughtfully you word things. I took it as you offering some food for thought.Of course now Dinah has come in and also said something perfectly reasonable, and well..
I'm thinking again.I JUST HATE THAT.. ; )
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 14:59:37
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people » Dinah, posted by zeugma on March 5, 2006, at 13:15:45
I really appreciate that. Thank you. It means a lot.
(Old fashioned expressions have a special appeal for me. They so often capture the nuance of what I'm trying to say better than modern ones.)
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 15:10:20
In reply to Re: Policy as opposed to people » zeugma, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 14:59:37
In fact, my husband has this whole comedy bit where he announces a football game using my characteristic expressions. It really is hilarious. I'll have to have him post it sometime.
But I guess this is purely social. :)
Posted by AuntieMel on March 5, 2006, at 15:22:48
In reply to Re: 5 » Gabbix2, posted by Tamar on March 5, 2006, at 8:52:41
I can easily discuss, and disagree on a logical level any policy, foriegn or otherwise.
Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone (no one in particular here, it's just because you asked the difference) - if someone is criticizing just a policy or is being anti-American.
Not that this has anything to do with this particular case, it's just that you asked.
Posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2006, at 1:03:32
In reply to Here's a link, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2006, at 22:53:21
Is 5 a new poster? You all seem to know him/her. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 14:55:08
In reply to Re: 5 » Gabbix2, posted by Tamar on March 5, 2006, at 8:52:41
> i didn't get away from my mother because i was afraid
>
> 5Fear is hard. Sometimes the thing to do is to listen and get away, sometimes to resist and stay.
> My chief interest is in the question of what it might take to be able to critique US foreign policy without eliciting outrage.
>
> TamarHow about constructive criticism? It tends to be more constructive if you put things in terms of how a policy might be improved rather than what's "wrong" with it. For example:
> i think it would set a good example if countries that say other countries can't have nukes give them up themselves.
And it tends to be more civil to talk about how you feel, for example, to use I-statements like:
> i feel incensed when countries with nukes say another country can't have them.
Bob
Posted by 838 on March 6, 2006, at 17:18:59
In reply to Re: critiques, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2006, at 14:55:08
> How about constructive criticism? It tends to be more constructive if you put things in terms of how a policy might be improved rather than what's "wrong" with it...
If you don't think there is anything 'wrong' with it then why would you be motivated to look to improve it?
There is a reason why phil papers typically start with getting people to think about problems with the current view.
If it ain't broke... Why bother trying to figure out how to fix it?
Posted by zeugma on March 7, 2006, at 17:01:15
In reply to Re: critiques » Dr. Bob, posted by 838 on March 6, 2006, at 17:18:59
If it ain't broke... Why bother trying to figure out how to fix it?>>
Or as I like to say, Why was John McCain interested in getting a bill passed that specifically outlawed torture by American government agencies?
To speak supportively: I admired Mr. McCain's resolution, although it seems rather redundant given that the U.S. is one of the signatories to the Geneva Convention. But his heart was in the right place, bless him.
-z
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 0:00:42
In reply to Re: critiques » 838, posted by zeugma on March 7, 2006, at 17:01:15
> Why was John McCain interested in getting a bill passed that specifically outlawed torture by American government agencies?
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding government agencies to Psycho-Babble Politics. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20060304/msgs/617327.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by 838 on March 8, 2006, at 4:08:20
In reply to Redirect: government agencies, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 0:00:42
Posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 21:40:55
In reply to Re: policy » Tamar, posted by AuntieMel on March 5, 2006, at 15:22:48
> I can easily discuss, and disagree on a logical level any policy, foriegn or otherwise.
Cool!
> Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone (no one in particular here, it's just because you asked the difference) - if someone is criticizing just a policy or is being anti-American.
Ah, I see what you mean! And I think this was one of the points I was feebly attempting to make in my original post to 5. I probably didn’t do a very good job of it. I guess I wonder if it’s possible for someone outside the US to criticize US foreign policy without seeming to be anti-American. Yes, you’re right: it’s hard to tell. I still believe that many Americans feel profoundly unsafe and might view critique of policy as anti-American sentiment. I think that’s one of the issues that make debate so difficult.
> Not that this has anything to do with this particular case, it's just that you asked.
Sure, and it’s fair enough that you call me on it. I think… as someone who was born in the US but now lives abroad… that it’s possible for people outside the US to acknowledge the many good things that come from the US. In my own opinion, a lot of very important feminist and queer and civil rights ideas have come from the US. I’m very glad of the influence American thinkers have had on the world. But at the same time, I feel disturbed at the failure to ratify the Kyoto protocol (but then the same is true of Australia I believe); I worry about the proportion of women who die in childbirth in the US compared with countries in Europe; and my views on the war with Iraq cannot be published here without my incurring a block.
So I wouldn’t consider myself anti-American, but I am very concerned about aspects of American culture and policy. And at the same time I’m concerned about aspects of the culture and policy of my own country.
If you’re worried that lots of people outside the US have anti-American feelings, then I guess you’re probably right. America seems to be rather unpopular in some quarters. But I reckon you don’t have to look much farther than the civil rights movement to be able to claim that America has a long and proud history of radical thought. It’s not the perfect place; but then, no country is perfect. And of course, anti-American sentiment isn’t a criticism of all American people… I reckon it’s principally a critique of foreign policy combined with a fear of being culturally colonized…
Is it possible to express those concerns here without being misinterpreted as anti-American?
Tamar
Posted by agent858 on March 12, 2006, at 18:54:06
In reply to Re: policy » AuntieMel, posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 21:40:55
> I guess I wonder if it’s possible for someone outside the US to criticize US foreign policy without seeming to be anti-American.
yeah. i've been wondering that myself. and then reading that interview with nagel... for a time... he didn't think it was possible even for someone inside the US to criticize US foreign policy without seeming to be anti-American (after 9 11).
i see. i didn't know it was like that...
> I feel disturbed at the failure to ratify the Kyoto protocol (but then the same is true of Australia I believe...
yup. same is true of Australia... (though i think it is more important for US to sign because it makes more waste / pollution)
> So I wouldn’t consider myself anti-American, but I am very concerned about aspects of American culture and policy. And at the same time I’m concerned about aspects of the culture and policy of my own country.
yeah. though i think you will find that if you critique your countries policy... you won't get many responses. probably lucky to get one (clearskies has shown an interest in other countries policies though)... but that is all. thats why i keep talking about US foreign policy... because people will talk about that. they don't want to talk about NZ foreign policy... they don't want to talk about issues i have with the NZ govt. why don't i critique the NZ govt? because people don't respond to that. but they notice when i critique the US govt. sigh.
> I reckon you don’t have to look much farther than the civil rights movement to be able to claim that America has a long and proud history of radical thought.
hmm... hrm... i agree with your sentiment. there are a lot of terrific thinkers in the US... i have trouble with the notion that the amazing thinkers were civil rights activists etc though... for the reason that... there are other countries in which the indegenous population was never considered to be animals (and hence not persons) in the first place... but yeah, i think i get your sentiment...
>anti-American sentiment isn’t a criticism of all American people… I reckon it’s principally a critique of foreign policy combined with a fear of being culturally colonized…
yeah. and economically colonized...
(or 'colonised' ;-) )
> Is it possible to express those concerns here without being misinterpreted as anti-American?don't think so :-(
but then... the 'misinterpretation' seems to be considered legitimate rather than 'jumping to conclusions'... sigh... i don't understand the world sometimes...
Posted by gardenergirl on March 13, 2006, at 7:41:34
In reply to Re: policy, posted by agent858 on March 12, 2006, at 18:54:06
Hi,
I redirected the aspect of the thread related to governments to the Politics board. Here is a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20060304/msgs/619739.htmlRegards,
gg
Posted by AuntieMel on March 13, 2006, at 10:00:55
In reply to Re: policy » AuntieMel, posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 21:40:55
This is the end of the thread.
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