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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 125 to 149 of 412. Go back in thread:
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 8, 2006, at 19:28:55
In reply to Re: Another tack, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:27
> There are many ways I've asked people to think of this, and I'm going to add another.
>
> If I might enter Babble every day, knowing that *every* post around me has at least had the inkling of trigger considered, I can start my day in safety. I want that, because I've never had it before, and it would bring me closer to being unsensitized, like you. All day, I'm not safe, every day. I have to be a certain amount of awake, in the morning, before I come....and I hold my breath, and I start clicking on things, to see which gets me first, my interest, or a trigger. And I want to be like you.
>
> Babble is the only source of triggers in my life, almost. It takes its toll.
>
> LarI feel manipulated by this.
It's not all about you.
I feel like the my pain and my needs and that of others is being ignored in order to bring the focus to your own. And it's becoming progressively more dramatic as the thread goes on, without your desired resolution.
WE couldn't be in as much pain as you, or we'd agree with you.
No one could feel as strongly about something, and react in a different way.
No according to you they'd be thinking "F*ck those people in wheelchairs"You've said yourself that you post on Alt.Depression.medication..
There is not even the most remote form of moderation there, it's a free for all I can't go there, it makes me sick to my stomach.It's personal, I know, however what you've said here however indirectly has been very personal, and worded very strongly.
You claim that people couldn't know how you feel.
Do you know how everyone else feels?I don't understand this.
Posted by verne on March 8, 2006, at 19:52:58
In reply to Re: Jen? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:27:11
Larry,
I've always been one of your biggest fans. You and PsychoBabble are synomynous.
I'm not sure though I can agree with your comment to JenStar: "I should think that at this point, your greatest fear might instead be that I change my mind and stay."
Or earlier when you said others didn't "know".
Even if we could read minds, I'm not sure it's polite to tell others what they are thinking and feeling.
I think you're the best. I would rather read Larry Hoover's comments on the alternative board than a book on the subject any day. I hope it works out so you can stay.
Meanwhile, all this emotional wrangling, the ultimatums, and brinkmanship, has "triggered" me into drinking. (maybe a little anyway)
Verne
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:06:56
In reply to Re: Another tack » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on March 8, 2006, at 19:28:55
> I feel manipulated by this.
I'm sick and tired of being manipulated by people who put their desire to speak their minds ahead of my desire to clear the area first. Maybe we're on a more even keel right now.
> It's not all about you.
Feel free to speak about you. I happen to be an expert about me.
> I feel like the my pain and my needs and that of others is being ignored in order to bring the focus to your own. And it's becoming progressively more dramatic as the thread goes on, without your desired resolution.
If you wanna debate, I've given you years' worth. Drum me out if you must, but I'm not going to be taken for granted in this way any more. I am not a selfish person. I seldom even speak of my own needs. It's part and parcel with my disorder, though. And though there be good and better ways to get across what I'm trying to get across, I know that I *have* gotten across.
So, I'm done, unless somebody wants to take some more cracks at me, instead of the ideas.
> WE couldn't be in as much pain as you, or we'd agree with you.I asked for a witness to a special view into the dynamic of one word, protection, as it applies to triggers. I am stubborn to make that point.
I don't profess expert status on such matters. But I can tell you I have been studying advocacy with local experts, and I have attended dozens of hours of special workshops on similar issues. A solution must originate from the perspective of the one in need. Must do so. Nothing else is within the dignity of the need itself, except by chance. Unless you don't care to meet the need at all, which can lead to much ado going nowhere. I'm trying to avoid that wasted effort.
> No one could feel as strongly about something, and react in a different way.
I dare say you're reading many things in, that I didn't place there.
> No according to you they'd be thinking "F*ck those people in wheelchairs"
Got your attention, huh. That was a quote, by the way. Not my words, but a quote, from a public meeting I attended. And, if you read that paragraph again, you can hear the dripping sarcasm, swim in it.
> You've said yourself that you post on Alt.Depression.medication..
> There is not even the most remote form of moderation there, it's a free for all I can't go there, it makes me sick to my stomach.I do post to a.s.d.m., but only in an advisory capacity any more. Got rid of the last neanderthal, and things are smooth, for the last while.
> It's personal, I know, however what you've said here however indirectly has been very personal, and worded very strongly.Yes.
> You claim that people couldn't know how you feel.
Not without listening precisely to my answers, not even a chance. Voluntary flagging does not address the special needs which I have been discussing. Needs which are not unique to me. I just know mine best, so I use them in discussion. I, from the get-go, made this about the sensitized, not me. 10% of the mentally ill, give or take. Not sure about Babble, because of the distortion imposed by years' of not addressing what no other moderated site I know has failed to address. Didn't want to put it like that, but it's not just PsychCentral that I compare it to.
I swear, again, I cannot believe I have to debate the merits.
> Do you know how everyone else feels?
Nope. Wouldn't be so presumptuous.
> I don't understand this.Sorry. Shall I try again?
<joke/silly/not serious>Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
In reply to Re: Another tack » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on March 8, 2006, at 19:28:55
without me.
I'll look in in a few weeks'/months' time. I'll leave babblemail on.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on March 8, 2006, at 20:19:40
In reply to Re: Jen? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:27:11
I don't think that Jenstar was in any way trying to be disrespectful or unkind?
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 8, 2006, at 20:22:13
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
I really don't understand Administration threads so well, I don't know what it is exactly, but sometimes I find it hard to reach a conclusion when reading them.
Other times, I feel the answer is right there in front of me.
~
Posted by Emme on March 8, 2006, at 20:43:44
In reply to Am I the only one?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 15:26:26
Wow. I poke in on admin and holee cow. I haven't read every post in this thread, but I think I've got the gist. I'm not too easily triggered, so the issue doesn't affect me greatly. But if other people say they would benefit from some sort of formalized alarm system, then why not? If it's easy to do (check a box, or write *T* for trigger), then I would imagine people would be willing to do it. That, and enough info in the subject line to know the category of trigger, and it should give sensitive people some extra roadsigns.
I see there's been some debate over voluntary vs. involuntary. And I admit I haven't given this deep thought. But if there's a policy on swe*r w*rds, maybe there's room for a policy on triggers.
emme
Posted by verne on March 8, 2006, at 22:13:27
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
My last "crack" at you was showering you with praise. I don't really know you but I have the greatest respect for you.
Perhaps, Bob, or to use another metaphor, a HORSE, let's say, was unwilling to drink from the purest stream of watered logic at an exact little riverside bank under a low hanging branch (trout look up and smile the way trout do, at this spot).
Let's say this horse, and even the herd, gets spooked by the repeated, and determined, efforts of a lone horse to force the entire herd to drink at this spot. Perhaps they don't know that spot or they have already drunk their full. Maybe they are on the other side of the stream and just not thirsty.
The only thing binary at the stream is whether Uncle Bob grabs me from behind. (grabs me- doesn't grab me)
you're still the best.
Verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
In reply to Re: Am I the only one? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 13:37:13
> Just knowing that it is the policy that someone cares whether or not I get triggered, and backs that up with some kind of authority, is very supportive. It helps me bounce back. It doesn't help me in the moment of finding the land-mine, but it helps afterwards.
It can be important to feel cared about by someone with authority. I understand that. I'm sorry you don't feel that here.
> > Plus, as I mentioned before, retroactive flagging could in fact be an option.
>
> And how do I know when that task has been completedYou can't know for sure, but on a busy board, give it a day?
> Would it be reasonable to toss a box of condoms into the lap of a woman who was seeking treatment after having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive man, and send her on her way, confident that all was well?
Would it have been reasonable, if condoms had been available, for her not to have used them because she considered them, um, barriers to participation?
> I don't want the job, as I said.
That's OK, others are willing to do it.
> I'm glad to see that you accept the idea of a core list of trigger subjects. That's big progress already.
Thanks, one step at a time...
> you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
Thing is, Larry, you triggered me.
Verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 0:35:15
In reply to Good Luck, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
As I mentioned before, you triggered me, twice. And I'm not triggered often. Nor would I normally even mention it, but I feel I have to here.
No it wasn't your suggestion but the methods used to get your point across.I'm not saying that to be cruel, or to play t*t-for tat. I'm saying it because it's the absolute truth. People don't always know what will trigger. We can't cover all of them.
And mine may be different from yours, but they cause me just as much pain, or discomfort.
The inference that I am somehow less sensitive because of this, is well I've said it before- triggering..
I'm ranting.
This whole thing.. just really got to me.I'm sorry this is just after Verne's but I was going to post it regardless, and I wasn't going to let unfortunate timing stop me.
Posted by sdb on March 9, 2006, at 0:48:35
In reply to Larry, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 0:35:15
>The thorne.com article might be closest to what >you're looking for? <guessing>
>Happy reading!
>LarDear Larry,
Could you keep an eye on the alternative babble?
People may need your worth advice/knowledge there.
~sdb
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
> > you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?I used an abstract structure, and expressly selected the definition I intended, and I don't know what more to do that still has anything the meaning I wanted to convey. I can't think of a rephrasing. Will an apology do? I'm sorry I made uncivil inferences about anybody.
Now, would you please just let me go?
I'm a stranger in a strange land. Why couldn't I simply accept that if people heard me cry out for help, that it would be enough? I never had anybody just listen to me about a selfish thing. There was always a gauntlet to run, and I never once made it through. So, I am unprepared for how to do that simple thing. I put on the whole TV campaign, and wrote speeches. I was gearing up to march on the Capital....
That was intended to be self-deprecating humour, the last post I made to Jen. My way of acknowledging what a PITA I can be.
I *need* to go now.
Lar
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:50:04
In reply to Good Luck, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
When this happens, step away from the keyboard. Don't give in to the little voice.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:51:28
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
How about "those who don't get triggered"
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
> without me.
>
> I'll look in in a few weeks'/months' time. I'll leave babblemail on.
>
> LarGod, you guys aren't going to trust a thing I say, considering how I often I change my mind, eh?
So much has taken place, in so short a time.
And, I'm back again, to being me. What do I mean by that?
I've almost got it in real time, almost. Which means I've almost got the hang of it.
I entered into discussion over something that has a particular magnitude in my life. I know it is true of others, as well. And I meant to speak rationally, and convincingly, about a process, an experience, that really is difficult to even frame in words.
Somewhere, along that path of discussion, I was joined by an indignant version of myself, but I didn't note his arrival. For a period of time, I was speaking with two voices simultaneously, but I, the one I call me, remained unaware of this. The me version would write something, and then I'd go to edit it. And I think that's where the indignant me snuck through, into print. During the edit. Sharp remarks and embellishments, unfiltered.
What you might observe in this thread, is me coming to realize what I'm saying now. Babble is an environment which encourages personal growth. I want it to be better. I want it to be safer. And you watched me do something I have never before done. You watched me grow.
I didn't do it with sensitivity to others. Ironic, considering my own topic of discussion. But sadly true.
So, I offer my utterly sincere and unconditional apology to anyone who was offended by my hyperbole, simile, metaphor, and just plain rhetorical assault upon your sensibilities.
Little Lar, or whatever you want to call the indignant one (teenager?), is no longer a secret to me. It may seem like an absurdity to you that I didn't know, as I'm sure you've seen him around before. <shrug> But, the thing is, I can't go back to a state of ignorance. The secret is out.
About this thread. About triggers. Please, do not think of me. Think about triggers. I've seen already that you do. I see the caring already.
And, I'm sincere, nothwithstanding that this is maybe the fourth time I've posted similarly, I do need to go.
TTFN,
Lar
Posted by Dinah on March 9, 2006, at 10:41:32
In reply to Re: I'm deeply sorry., posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
It happens to a lot of us, Lar. I certainly understand.
And Babble *can* be a place for growth in that. Or at least that's been my experience.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2006, at 10:58:13
In reply to Re: My apologies, fellow Babblers, posted by verne on March 5, 2006, at 11:08:49
I think this is an excellent idea. (Very good example, Verne!) The easier we make it for people to do something, the more likely it will be done.
Whether it's voluntary or mandatory...well, I haven't thought that through. If it becomes mandatory, I'd like to see a great deal more warnings before a block. What number? I don't know.
Also, I thought about setting up a Yahoo group (Open) survey about topics to try to identify the trigger topics most likely to be used. And perhaps if this format is implemented, there could be a category for "other" and then the person can elaborate a bit in the subject line? Is that still do-able, and is it a good idea?
gg
> Perhaps we could have a box or boxes for triggers that we could check on the "Enter Post" screen.
>
> [] self injury
>
> [] physical abuse
>
> [] alcohol or drug use
>
> Perhaps one universal box for triggers on the Enter screen and more specific boxes on the Revise and Submit Post screen.
>
> These additional boxes would be activated if the trigger box on the Enter Post screen were checked, in the same way movie and book links are created on the Submit Post screen with double quotes.
>
> Verne
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 13:28:40
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
I'm sorry Larry, I got hysterical last nite. PWD and more looped than usual, after taking an experimental dose of Kanna powder. Part of my diagnosis is histronic personality disorder. (I tend to up the rhetoric)
You're still fine in my book.
verne
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 13:40:01
In reply to Re: I'm deeply sorry., posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
I usually start with the indignant version, and then when I edit it I take out the snippy bits.
Heaven help me if I hit the wrong button.
-------
"Somewhere, along that path of discussion, I was joined by an indignant version of myself, but I didn't note his arrival. For a period of time, I was speaking with two voices simultaneously, but I, the one I call me, remained unaware of this. The me version would write something, and then I'd go to edit it. And I think that's where the indignant me snuck through, into print. During the edit. Sharp remarks and embellishments, unfiltered."
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 14:02:08
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » Larry Hoover, posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 13:40:01
> I usually start with the indignant version, and then when I edit it I take out the snippy bits.
>
> Heaven help me if I hit the wrong button.
>Oh geez, you guys edit?
maybe I should try that..
Posted by James K on March 9, 2006, at 14:05:47
In reply to checkboxes, posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2006, at 10:58:13
I been following all this discussion as it's happened, and would like to weigh in again. Back to Dr. Bob's original suggestion, I like the red letter thing he mentioned way back up better than the getting into the specific issue in boxes. I think the kind of post can be alluded to in the subject line.
What Larry is asking for makes more sense to me as I reflect on it more. By what Larry is asking for, I mean the fact that failure to warn will get warnings that could eventually lead to a block. But I would want a lot of leeway in the judgement calls for administration.
I think basically, it is the being blindsided by something major AND explicit where it wasn't expected and "shouldn't" be. I think it could be looked at as appropriateness as a component of civility.
First off, I think explicitness versus discussion is important. And, appropriate location would be important.
some examples: and the reason I put a trigger warning on this.
I am cutting myself right now. On Politics versus
After our session I felt like cutting. on Psychology.or
I was in the emergency room with blood all over me and obscenities carved in my chest. on Social
versus. I have issues with self injury. on Social.
I think "I'm wasted right this second drinking this and popping that" would be more appropriate on Substance, rather than less. (I realize that's where the people likely to be triggered are, but it's less of a suprise there.) I think that descriptions of bulimia or binging would be more appropriate on Eating and less on Social or Alternative.Half of the poetry on Writing is triggery. I don't know where my thinking is for that yet.
If someone asks about a med side effect on Babble, and the response is "wrist slashing". That's a kick in the butt that isn't fair to anyone.
By the way, most of these negative examples were me, so I'm something of an expert on the subject.
So I think, not censorship, but appropriateness, enforced loosely, but with the teeth of a block once the poster has had the education to really know better. And a check box for red lettering. And still the freedom to say whatever you need to within the existing rules of civility. And an explanation in the FAQ of why this is important to some of the community.
My best current thinking,
James K
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 14:08:05
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 14:02:08
I put my posts through several drafts to add as much unnecessary punctuation as possible. I also like to work in a few hyphens and horses - live or otherwise.
no horses were harmed in the making of this post.
v
Posted by Dinah on March 9, 2006, at 16:18:41
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » Larry Hoover, posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 13:40:01
Me too.
It's a great stress reliever.
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 16:36:20
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 14:08:05
work in a few hyphens and horses - live or otherwise.
>
> no horses were harmed in the making of this post.
>Well, If you're going to put horses in your posts make sure you have a "Trigger" warning.
Oh
Man,that was bad...
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