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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 3:22:03
If poster B says, "Poster A is being very manipulative," you would probably block poster B, right? Yet, if poster A says, "I'm being very manipulative," you wouldn't block her, right? Why not?
If Mr. X says, "I'm going to hurt Ms. Y [by cutting her or pushing her into harm's way]," surely Mr. X should be reported to law enforcement and prevented from inflicting harm on Ms. Y. Yet, if Ms. Y says, "I'm going to hurt myself. I'm going to self-injure. I'm going to 'SI' or jump out a window," instead of being reported to the police or taken to a hospital, Ms. Y logs onto an Internet message board and repeatedly talks about her intent to injure herself. She repeatedly ignores the good advice given to her to seek treatment. This goes on for months and months. When others start to ignore her posts, her threats escalate. Yet she is not reported to the police. She is not committed to a hospital, and she is not blocked from the message board.
Why is it acceptable to injure oneself when it is completely unacceptable to harm someone else? Why is it acceptable to call oneself names or criticize oneself, yet when someone else does it, even when they're obviously trying to help, they get blocked or are labeled "uncivil?"
Do you think self-injury is civil? I don't.
Posted by wildcard on January 7, 2006, at 3:50:49
In reply to Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 3:22:03
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:57:57
In reply to Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 3:22:03
Ouch.
As someone with self injury in my not too distant past, and continuing suicidal ideation, I've got to say that idea scares me a bit. I've always liked that we can talk about those things here, with appropriate trigger warnings. Because there aren't that many places where those things can be discussed, and they can become so *powerful* if they are unspeakable.
The same thing with self denigration. I'd hate to have to worry about being called uncivil if I were to describe myself as fat and ugly. But I can understand that Dr. Bob would prefer that anyone who chooses to agree with me do so off board. :)
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:58:40
In reply to Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 3:22:03
However, there's a somewhat related thing I'd like to discuss, but I'll do it on a separate thread.
Posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 13:13:12
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Sarah T., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:57:57
Hi Dinah,
I have to think about your post for a while. For now, I'll just say that I think it depends a lot on the extent of the threats, how long they've been going on, on this board, and whether or not the person is getting help and treatment. I've read many of your posts over several years, and I know that you are actively engaged in, and committed to, getting well. And you haven't let up on this committment, in spite of the numerous tragedies you experienced in a very short period of time.
I understand that if someone is new to this board and/or new to therapy, they may not know yet that there are healthier ways to cope with their feelings. They may not know yet that everyone has problems, that we will always have problems, and that what's important is how we choose to deal with those problems. But, as far as this most recent problem is concerned, that is not the case. During the most recent incident, it seemed that no matter what other Babblers did or said, the threats escalated, to the extent that the person claimed to be taking an overdose WHILE she posted here. Some Babblers "opted out," and refused to participate in those threads. Others became worried and tried to help with a "tough love" approach. Others tried to help with the "infinite patience" approach. It didn't matter. The threats escalated. This cycle seems to happen every few weeks, and the cycles began months ago.
I have a feeling about the threats that may or may not be accurate, but I know I'm not alone in feeling this: I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled. Several years ago, there was a similar pattern of incidents with someone who was blocked for months, only to return under a different name. Things were OK for a while, and then the cycle started all over again. Finally, she "outed" herself, and many of us felt as if we'd been played for fools -- again.
I have to log off now.
S.
Posted by crazy teresa on January 7, 2006, at 14:22:53
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Dinah, posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 13:13:12
I know I'm not alone in feeling this: I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
many of us felt as if we'd been played for fools -- again.
That's exactly it. I'm a sucker for caring and trying to help.
Posted by TexasChic on January 7, 2006, at 20:39:28
In reply to Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 3:22:03
Wasn't there was a poster a while back that threatened suicide and Dr. Bob sent the cops to her house? If that's the case, I don't see why the same was not done in this situation.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 21:05:23
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by TexasChic on January 7, 2006, at 20:39:28
er... because deneb didn't threaten suicide?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 21:08:29
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » TexasChic, posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 21:05:23
i remember calling the CAT (crisis assessment team) once and telling them that i thought i should go into hospital for a while.
they asked why.
i said because i really didn't feel very well...
and they said so what.
and i said that i thought i might kill myself.
and they said...
is that a threat?
and i said no...
that is a promise.
sigh.
i dunno.
how should that conversation have gone do ya think?
do ya think they should have rung the cops on me?
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2006, at 23:34:26
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by TexasChic on January 7, 2006, at 20:39:28
Yes I read that but forget who it was. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Sarah T. on January 8, 2006, at 0:08:56
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by TexasChic on January 7, 2006, at 20:39:28
Hi TexasChic,
That's the one I was referring to, but I didn't think I should post the name(s).Sarah
Posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:11:46
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Dinah, posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 13:13:12
Sarah,
I'm so glad you posted this. I've felt that same feeling of being "toyed" with; wondering whether or not someone was being "real."It's frustrating, because I come here for support and fun from anonymous -- but REAL -- people. I don't like the idea that someone may be feigning or making things up, and of course I have no way to verify any of it. And I hate doubting someone, but the truth is that sometimes, in some cases, I DO have serious doubts. I try to quell them and post as if I didn't have doubts, but inside, I do.
And I vacillate between tough love, and ignoring, and patience, and none of it seems to help.
Although I do believe that if someone DOES come here and makes up fantastic stories, then that person does "belong" here in the sense that they clearly have issues communicating, and need friends, and have lots of problems in their life... and this IS a mental health board!
I guess it would really be very sad if someone chose to spend their free time not with friends, not on hobbies, not with family...but in making up stories just to tantalize, tease or ponder what will happen on the boards. Very sad indeed.
Anyway, thanks again for posting. On the other topic, it's interesting that we CAN insult ourselves but not others! I'm not saying that I want a ban on self-insults, or open field day on insulting others...but it's certainly something to think about.
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:15:05
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . ., posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 21:08:29
Alex,
I think the words 'threat' and 'promise' are both scary, and the CAT folks shouldn't have pressured you to use either of them.Maybe you could have said, "I don't know what to call it, but I'm feeling so unwell right now, and so horrible. I just have this feeling welling up in me that is pressuring me to do something awful to myself, and I don't know how to stop that feeling. I don't know if I can stop myself. I'm not making any threats, I'm just explaining this horrible feeling in me, and asking you for help to keep me here on this earth."
I hate that people put you on the spot with "is that a threat." what jerks!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:18:21
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:15:05
but about whether or not they should have called the cops...I don't know. If I were a crisis team member, my goal would be to prevent any and all suicides. If that meant sometimes calling the police, I might do it, even though that's intrusive and scary and ugly. I might err on the cautious side and call the cops when it wasn't warranted, just because I'd be so scared that if I DIDN'T, that someone might hurt themself. And I would never want that!
I wish there were an easier, gentler way to get help for people who really need it -- a midground between "go help yourself, buddy" and "I'm going to call the cops on you!" Hmmmm...
JenStar
Posted by Deneb on January 8, 2006, at 21:05:35
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Sarah T., posted by JenStar on January 8, 2006, at 20:11:46
I *am* a real person and I don't make up stories.
You you want me to prove it?
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, a few questions. . . » Dinah, posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 13:13:12
> For now, I'll just say that I think it depends a lot on the extent of the threats, how long they've been going on, on this board, and whether or not the person is getting help and treatment.
I agree, it depends on a lot of factors...
> I understand that if someone is new to this board and/or new to therapy, they may not know yet that there are healthier ways to cope with their feelings... But, as far as this most recent problem is concerned, that is not the case.
People can know there are healthier ways, but knowing can be one thing and doing another...
> Some Babblers "opted out," and refused to participate in those threads. Others became worried and tried to help with a "tough love" approach. Others tried to help with the "infinite patience" approach. It didn't matter. The threats escalated.
It's a good question, what the best way might be to handle these situations. Maybe I should try to say something pre-emptive about "tough love". And add something about it to the FAQ. Some sites just don't allow discussion of self-injury or suicidal ideation. IMO, it's not necessarily a bad system if some people opt out, others are patient, and there's discussion about what might be helpful for all involved.
> I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
You feel helpless? You may not be the only one...
Bob
Posted by Deneb on January 9, 2006, at 1:55:05
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
> > I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
>
> You feel helpless? You may not be the only one...
>
> Bob:-( I'm sorry Dr. Bob, if I made you feel helpless in some way.
Do you feel like you are being fooled too?
You don't believe that I'm a real person? You believe that I'm "toying" around with people? For fun?
I'm a real person. You'll see when I go to Toronto. I'm not "toying" with people or playing games, at least not on purpose. I don't know exactly why, but I get upset, then others get upset and then everything turns upside down and I and others get even more upset. I think maybe Babble is not good for me, but now I can't stop coming here.
I think there is a problem...I think maybe I see Babble as some sort of giant entity. I don't care as much as I should for individuals here. Maybe I should Babblemail more. Larry and I are having great conversations via e-mail. It's not a one sided relationship, at least I don't think so.
I hope you don't think I'm a bad person Dr. Bob.
Deneb
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:22:08
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
Dr. Bob, you didn't answer my question about an admittedly technical point.
I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
"You have described yourself as being..."
By the way, you must be in a *very* good mood. :)
Posted by wildcard on January 9, 2006, at 8:30:22
In reply to Re: a few responses. . . » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:22:08
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 10:03:21
In reply to Re: a few responses. . . » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 8:22:08
> Dr. Bob, you didn't answer my question about an admittedly technical point.
>
> I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
>
> "You have described yourself as being..."Sorry, it's hard to say. I think I'd want to see the whole post...
> By the way, you must be in a *very* good mood. :)
Because I'm not as cranky as usual? :-)
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on January 9, 2006, at 16:21:09
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 1:11:42
"> I feel as if I'm being toyed with. It's hard to describe, but it's a feeling of being lured or tantalized. I feel as if I'm being fooled.
You feel helpless? You may not be the only one..."
She's not the only one. Me too. In fact I've decided it's a game I don't want to play anymore.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 18:36:28
In reply to Re: a few responses. . ., posted by Dr. Bob on January 9, 2006, at 10:03:21
> > Dr. Bob, you didn't answer my question about an admittedly technical point.
> >
> > I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
> >
> > "You have described yourself as being..."
>
> Sorry, it's hard to say. I think I'd want to see the whole post...How would that be allowable under the civility rules? We're not supposed to quote posts that you've flagged. And you haven't said that it would be ok with the other wording, so I can't substitute those words either. :) I guess it doesn't make any difference overall. I just am interested in the nuances of civility rules.
> > By the way, you must be in a *very* good mood. :)
>
> Because I'm not as cranky as usual? :-)No, I didn't mean you weren't as cranky as usual. I meant you weren't as cranky as I. :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 1:22:27
In reply to I *am* a real person, posted by Deneb on January 8, 2006, at 21:05:35
> I *am* a real person and I don't make up stories.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding being a real person to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060108/msgs/597448.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 1:25:23
In reply to Re: a few responses. . . » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2006, at 18:36:28
> > > I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
> > >
> > > "You have described yourself as being..."
> >
> > Sorry, it's hard to say. I think I'd want to see the whole post...
>
> How would that be allowable under the civility rules? We're not supposed to quote posts that you've flagged. And you haven't said that it would be ok with the other wording, so I can't substitute those words either. :) I guess it doesn't make any difference overall. I just am interested in the nuances of civility rules.You could reword it so it's about a movie or something instead of a poster? :-) Or you could email it to me...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on January 10, 2006, at 9:32:54
In reply to Re: other wording, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2006, at 1:25:23
I'll give it a shot in email.
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