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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 44 to 68 of 134. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2005, at 16:46:00
In reply to Re: stated purpose » Dr. Bob, posted by Nickengland on July 25, 2005, at 14:01:04
>
> His purpose here seems to be against the site and against yourself personally I would have thought from reading this?So then inciting outrage might be considered an unintended side effect?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2005, at 16:47:13
In reply to Re: stated purpose » Nickengland, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2005, at 16:46:00
and that it was in reaction to So's posts.
I don't want to characterize the posts a inciting anything. Although I can say I felt outrage among other feelings.
gg
Posted by partlycloudy on July 25, 2005, at 17:15:08
In reply to assuming folks were outraged... » gardenergirl, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2005, at 16:47:13
Actually, I'm quite miffed at getting a PBC at my post!
Not that I've seen any successful retractions from Dr Bob on them; I'm not wasting my typing fingers on it.
But yes; I personally was outraged by the series of threads and exchanges in question.
mostlycloudy
Posted by Nickengland on July 25, 2005, at 18:08:09
In reply to Re: stated purpose » Nickengland, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2005, at 16:46:00
>So then inciting outrage might be considered an unintended side effect?
I would agree, most definately.
I'm fairly certain with the amount of intelligence behind some of 'so's posts, the unintendedness....well I personally think he knew that side effect was coming regardless.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by JenStar on July 25, 2005, at 18:28:55
In reply to Re: stated purpose » gardenergirl, posted by Nickengland on July 25, 2005, at 18:08:09
I agree. So mentioned several times that he/she knows how to use words for maximum effect.
I believe that it's completely impossible to write such provocative things as were included in many of those posts, and such cruel things, and NOT be aware that you are inciting anger, rage, hurt feelings, etc.
I think to every rule there is an exception; to every rule there is a special clause. It's near impossible to develop civility rules that govern the entire hoard perfectly. And in a case like this, it seems to me there is ample evidence of malintent from the venom seen in some of those posts. I'm not sure that when such motives are present, that giving slap-on-the-wrist blocks is fair to the community as whole. I was also frustrated to see that other posters who posted under duress, sort of reeling from the after-effects of the onslaught of posts, received PBC's. Somehow the system doesn't seem perfectly set up to deal with this kind of issue...
JS
Posted by JenStar on July 25, 2005, at 18:34:31
In reply to Re: stated purpose » Nickengland, posted by JenStar on July 25, 2005, at 18:28:55
Sometimes intent IS obvious even if someone doesn't explicitly state their intent. And sometimes intent can be inferred with 99% accuracy. And sometimes people's intent MUST be inferred, because they say one thing publicly but their actions and words speak another story.
And sometimes intent SHOULD be inferred. Letting people continue to play word games at the expense of the boards and the expense of other posters is not appropriate, in my opinion. It's interesting, yes, but not conducive to harmony. (Although: I suppose it's never been explicitly stated that "harmony" is one of the goals of this board! Maybe that's just my personal goal.)
I know it's Dr. Bob's call on who he wants to allow here, and clearly he wants to allow so to return. I disagree with that decision, just for the record.
JenStar
Posted by Racer on July 25, 2005, at 22:41:58
In reply to Re: stated purpose » Nickengland, posted by JenStar on July 25, 2005, at 18:28:55
>
> I think to every rule there is an exception; to every rule there is a special clause. It's near impossible to develop civility rules that govern the entire hoard perfectly. And in a case like this, it seems to me there is ample evidence of malintent from the venom seen in some of those posts. I'm not sure that when such motives are present, that giving slap-on-the-wrist blocks is fair to the community as whole. I was also frustrated to see that other posters who posted under duress, sort of reeling from the after-effects of the onslaught of posts, received PBC's. Somehow the system doesn't seem perfectly set up to deal with this kind of issue...
>
> JSI just heard on the news tonight that there is another child murderer in Florida. This one is a seven year old boy who beat his six month old sister to death. There was some discussion about his potential punishment, which naturally led to the 13 year old who was sentenced to life in prison a few years ago -- because life was the only possible sentence for the offense of murder in Florida.
My point being -- besides not all that sharp *g* -- that it's very, very hard to create a standardized set of rules that makes sense in every case. Years ago -- before I learned to keep my mouth shut more often ;-) -- I was discussing the proper sentence for a battered woman who killed her abuser with a friend of my mother's. I was saying that such a woman wouldn't deserve a harsh sentence -- and my mother's friend took that to its rather obvious conclusion: "so, uh, maybe we shouldn't put her in prison at all? Just let her go? After all, she's unlikely ever to kill again..."
The Andrea Yates case kinda says it all, in my opinion.
Anyway, I think that Dr Bob really has made every effort to keep things fair here, to be seen to offer the same punishment for the same offense every time. I'm just not sure I agree that that's the best way to go about it. There are times -- like with "so" -- where perhaps harsher and more lenient sentences might be best for the community as a whole. More lenient in the cases of those here who slipped due to outrage, and more harsh for someone who really did state that his/her intent was other than benign.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 23:23:41
In reply to may trigger: Like our criminal justice system » JenStar, posted by Racer on July 25, 2005, at 22:41:58
I've had some interesting discussions with so.
I hope he comes back for some more interesting discussions.
I'm not sure what is up with him sometimes...
Maybe one day he will feel like sharing.
Posted by thuso on July 26, 2005, at 0:11:25
In reply to may trigger: Like our criminal justice system » JenStar, posted by Racer on July 25, 2005, at 22:41:58
> Anyway, I think that Dr Bob really has made every effort to keep things fair here, to be seen to offer the same punishment for the same offense every time. I'm just not sure I agree that that's the best way to go about it. There are times -- like with "so" -- where perhaps harsher and more lenient sentences might be best for the community as a whole. More lenient in the cases of those here who slipped due to outrage, and more harsh for someone who really did state that his/her intent was other than benign.
>In a perfect forum that would be my ideal too. Unfortunately, it would be so subjective that it would only cause more problems than the way things are done now. Many people may not like that the same punishment is given to everyone regardless, but how else would you suggest it be done with it being as unsubjective as possible? The way things are done now it seems that the punishments are less of a product of Dr. B's personal feelings than if he had to decide whether to be harsh or lenient. If it was changed to being lenient for some cases and harsher for others, then wouldn't his personal feelings end up playing a role in the punishment (even if he tried not to)? I would bet money on the fact that if the punishment structure was changed then you would get many more people crying "favoritism!" than do now.
I found a great quote for you though...
"If an equal punishment is laid down for two crimes which damage society unequally, men will not have a stronger deterrent against committing the greater crime if they find it more advantageous to do so."
"On Crimes and Punishments"
Cesare Beccaria
1764It's a great read and you can find it easily on the internet.
Posted by Racer on July 26, 2005, at 12:00:22
In reply to Re: may trigger: Like our criminal justice system » Racer, posted by thuso on July 26, 2005, at 0:11:25
Actually, I think we agree about all this. Who knows what was going on in my head yesterday, *g*, I was a bit tired, and not necessarily following thoughts through to the end. (Plus, I read this right after hearing about that kid in Florida on the news...)
Anyway, I rarely have problems with what goes on here -- and, even when my buddies here get blocked, I still have to support Dr Bob's decisions. Often with a big sigh, but I still support his decisions as soon as I read what he's responding to.
The only thing I question about the blockings is the automatic doubling of the block lengths. That I don't agree with. I do think that many times it's the best thing, but sometimes I think it might not fit the circumstances.
But whatever. You and I agree on the basics, that while it's impossible to make a set of hard and fast rules that will seem fair to everyone in all circumstances, Dr Bob's system works well for this site. And I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about that.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2005, at 11:51:10
In reply to Re: stated purpose » Nickengland, posted by JenStar on July 25, 2005, at 18:28:55
> I also thought it might be a good time for you to reiterate the rules for coming back, particularly as someone who wouldn't be known when seen.
>
> I'm sure I don't have to remind you of your agreement regarding shortening block lengths?
>
> DinahI'm not sure what you mean, what rules and what agreement? He needs to email me himself or herself, and I'll post something if I do shorten it?
--
> I think that people are sometimes so disruptive ... that it would be acceptable to give them a lifetime ban.
I understand that. But I think it would be nice to find some way to co-exist, too.
> I guess I'm feeling frustrated, Dr. Bob, by what seems to be a detached and bemused attitude... I would like to see more positive support for the regulars here.
>
> I think it would be nice to have a little more of a "dr. bob firewall" protecting the gentler souls here!> I believe that it's completely impossible to write such provocative things ... and NOT be aware that you are inciting anger, rage, hurt feelings, etc.
>
> JenStarI try to provide some level of protection, but posters also need to take care of themselves. Maybe Admin isn't the place for gentler souls? Or some degree of detachment isn't necessarily such a bad thing?
I do believe it's possible for people not to be aware of the consequences of their behavior.
Sorry, I do value you all as individuals and as a group, and I sincerely regret it when my decisions or the actions of others cause you distress. I don't always feel I can repair things in the way you might wish, but I hope that doesn't keep you from continuing to contribute to this community.
--
> > I've made it clear I intend to expose Robert Hsiung as the malicious bigot he knows himself to be.
>
> His purpose here seems to be against the site and against yourself personally I would have thought from reading this?
>
> NickenglandWell, I know he doesn't give me virtual hugs, but if he exposes problems with the administration, that could help the site, couldn't it?
Bob
Posted by gabbii on July 27, 2005, at 12:36:30
In reply to Re: stated purpose, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2005, at 11:51:10
>
> Well, I know he doesn't give me virtual hugs, > BobYou're funny, Dr Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 12:57:08
In reply to Re: stated purpose, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2005, at 11:51:10
> > I also thought it might be a good time for you to reiterate the rules for coming back, particularly as someone who wouldn't be known when seen.
> >
> > I'm sure I don't have to remind you of your agreement regarding shortening block lengths?
> >
> > Dinah
>
> I'm not sure what you mean, what rules and what agreement? He needs to email me himself or herself, and I'll post something if I do shorten it?That's your agreement about shortening block lengths. I was also referring the rules regarding posting under a different name while blocked and notification on the Admin board of posting under a new name. Which I sort of think ought to be formal notification in the subject line, not just mentioned in a post somewhere.
>
> --
>
> > I think that people are sometimes so disruptive ... that it would be acceptable to give them a lifetime ban.
>
> I understand that. But I think it would be nice to find some way to co-exist, too.Hard to do that on only half of the equation, you know?
>
> > I guess I'm feeling frustrated, Dr. Bob, by what seems to be a detached and bemused attitude... I would like to see more positive support for the regulars here.
> >
> > I think it would be nice to have a little more of a "dr. bob firewall" protecting the gentler souls here!
>
> > I believe that it's completely impossible to write such provocative things ... and NOT be aware that you are inciting anger, rage, hurt feelings, etc.
> >
> > JenStar
>
> I try to provide some level of protection, but posters also need to take care of themselves. Maybe Admin isn't the place for gentler souls? Or some degree of detachment isn't necessarily such a bad thing?
>
> I do believe it's possible for people not to be aware of the consequences of their behavior.
>
> Sorry, I do value you all as individuals and as a group, and I sincerely regret it when my decisions or the actions of others cause you distress. I don't always feel I can repair things in the way you might wish, but I hope that doesn't keep you from continuing to contribute to this community.
>
> --
>
> > > I've made it clear I intend to expose Robert Hsiung as the malicious bigot he knows himself to be.
> >
> > His purpose here seems to be against the site and against yourself personally I would have thought from reading this?
> >
> > Nickengland
>
> Well, I know he doesn't give me virtual hugs, but if he exposes problems with the administration, that could help the site, couldn't it?
>
> BobI like your humor, Dr. Bob. But I think you ought to keep in mind that you aren't the only person affected, even if you're the person who is being exposed, so to speak. Perhaps there could be ways in which impact on the community is minimized when someone wishes to ummm... expose problems with the administration. Perhaps we could all give it some thought?
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 12:58:44
In reply to Re: stated purpose, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 12:57:08
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 13:21:03
In reply to Re: stated purpose » JenStar, posted by JenStar on July 25, 2005, at 18:34:31
I think I may actually appreciate a clear statement of intent. When someone says something about themselves, something that one doesn't ordinarily say about oneself, I tend to believe what they say.
I'd hate to discourage people from dispensing such valuable information about themselves.
It allows others to develop appropriate expectations .
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 14:30:40
In reply to Re: stated purpose, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 12:57:08
Although I should really be working.
> Perhaps there could be ways in which impact on the community is minimized when someone wishes to ummm... expose problems with the administration. Perhaps we could all give it some thought?
How about in times like this, in the future, if you address the board, or respond to distressed posters, reassuring them that you are ok, the board is in no danger, and that you would prefer to handle things yourself. Or something validating how frustrating it is to feel (xxx - insert appropriate feeling), but telling them something reassuring or warning or whatever. Or whatever it is that you actually are thinking. (That would be helpful. No need to share the unhelpful thoughts.)
As moderator, and leader, of the forum, mightn't it be a good idea, in the interests of finding a way to peacefully coexist, to address these sort of things? And certainly to reassure people that the act of exposing problems with the administration actually caused no real threat to the existence of Babble, something important to many people here, or to you, someone important to many people here.
Or maybe to remind people that certain feelings can be contained in different ways. For example, if someone feels like the mouse tied to the end of those sticks they sell in toy stores, one way to regain control is to refuse to play and walk away. Or if someone is feeling protective, one way to respond is to support the person they feel protective of, without actually mentioning anyone else or the behavior of anyone else. In other words, a good leader (as opposed to a civility automaton that some would propose) could forestall problems by validating feelings and proposing alternatives.
And by reassuring posters of the overall state of the board, as it were, and the ability of the leader to maintain it and himself in good health in the face of exposition of problems.
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 14:41:22
In reply to An idea already, Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 14:30:40
Chuckle.
I'll bet you think I'm asking you to expand your role here at Babble, by calling you a leader as well as an administrator or moderator. But I'm not, you know. Will you or nill you, you are a leader at Babble. Not a group therapist or anything, but a leader. Perhaps you could think of leaders you admire from nontherapeutic fields for guidance?
Lincoln? Churchill? Captain Kirk?
Posted by partlycloudy on July 27, 2005, at 14:59:49
In reply to An idea already, Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 14:30:40
Well said, Dinah.
pc
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 15:51:12
In reply to Re: An idea already, Dr. Bob » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on July 27, 2005, at 14:59:49
;)
I'm hoping he chooses Captain Kirk. I'm already practicing my
"D*mnit. I'm a deputy, Bob, not a. . . ."
Anyone else have on of those Starfleet Security shirts with a bullseye printed on it?
Which is just a nonsequitur.
(Leaving Dr. Bob open to redirect nonsequiturs to Social.)
I think I'm giddy with anxiety.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 27, 2005, at 16:03:44
In reply to Re: An idea already, Dr. Bob » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 15:51:12
Dinah, you have mail, btw.
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 16:07:43
In reply to Re: An idea already, Dr. Bob » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on July 27, 2005, at 16:03:44
You do too. :)
Posted by Nickengland on July 27, 2005, at 16:42:49
In reply to Re: stated purpose, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2005, at 11:51:10
>Well, I know he doesn't give me virtual hugs..
LOL Yep, thats one way to put it I guess!
>but if he exposes problems with the administration, that could help the site, couldn't it?
Very true. I do agree totally.
Is the help perhaps, the wrong kind of help though? More trouble seemed to arise last time. It could be like 10% of help could be gained, whereas 90% of trouble is started..
Does the help outweigh the un-helpfullness? (of course my percentages are rough guess')
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by JenStar on July 27, 2005, at 17:12:01
In reply to Re: stated purpose, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2005, at 11:51:10
Dr. Bob,
thanks for taking the time to read & respond to our messages. I appreciate it! It's nice to know that I was heard, even if you don't agree.I don't mind co-existing with people who have different outlooks and beliefs than I do; in fact, I think it makes life more interesting and varied. And I learn and grow from it.
But I DO mind co-existing with people who seem unwilling to debate in a logical fashion, or who seem to enjoy stirring up trouble simply for the sake of the trouble, or with people who are just jerks. Some people really ARE just jerks, you know!
Maybe there is a psychological reason for the jerkiness, including traumatic childhood, abuse, chemical imbalances, genetics, etc -- but it doesn't make the person in question any less jerky! And it doesn't make me want to spend time with them!
In all honesty I'm not really such a "gentle soul" that I can't handle the admin board. I just get frustrated by certain posts. I know that ignoring it is a viable option.
But it sort of reminds me of this: Imagine a kid on the playground who is tossing stones at another kid. The other kid is yelping and crying. Certainly the stones are not hitting ME. I could easily walk away, unharmed. But something about the situation impels me to do something and stop the stone-throwing. I reason it out like this: If I let the stone-throwing go on, it's possible that the thrower will gain confidence in his strength and will only increase his stone activities over time. Maybe in the future he will expand his stone operation to include me or my loved ones as a target. And the person getting hit will see bystanders watching silently and will feel worse. Possibly he will become warped by the situation, or angered. It seems that it's better for the society as a whole to stop the stone-throwers. (Esp. if I'm not put into mortal danger by trying to help! If I were in such danger, my outlook and actions might change.)
I kind of see certain posters as stone-throwers, as bullies. I wish we could stop them from being so disruptive. I guess I have patience up to a point, then I snap. What's the point, I think to myself, of hoping and wheedling and coaxing and sweet-talking a person who is just not listening?
It also drives me NUTS when other posters act all sweet and kind and understanding towards the 'mean' posters. What is THAT supposed to accomplish, I wonder to myself. Is it a way to try and ingratiate oneself with the bully, hoping to avoid future trauma? Is it a way to try and befriend the bully so as to be the important ONE who understands him/her? Is it a way to be shocking? Is it a way to be different? It is a fascination with power and abuse? --Of course, Dr. Bob, I don't expect you to answer these questions! They're questions I'm thinking "aloud" (atype?).
I agree that SOME people are not aware of the consequences of their behavior, including people with certain disorders of the brain, and "normal" people who are on the thoughtless or unaware side of the equation. BUT - I think there are other people who know exactly what consequences they will derive from certain actions, words and phrases, or people who hope for certain consequences. And I know it's not a 100% guarantee that one can tell this from posts alone, but I think we can give it a decent shot at times. I also think that posters who come back again and again, with new names, but always the same agenda -- those people clearly know what they want to accomplish and are aware of the consequences that they hope to achieve and will achieve.
But I agree to disagree, and I like Babble, and of course I plan to stay here! Thanks for encouraging us to stay here even if we disagree. It's really nice to hear you say that. And I like Babble a lot, even if there are troubled posters and even if things get rocky from time to time! And even if I'M rocky from time to time!
Thanks for letting me vent!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on July 27, 2005, at 17:15:42
In reply to thanks for replying! More of my thoughts... » Dr. Bob, posted by JenStar on July 27, 2005, at 17:12:01
hi all,
I hope my previous post didn't offend anyone. I re-read it and it sounds rather strident, which is honestly how I am feeling. BUT I wanted to make it clear that I am venting and sharing my feelings, and in no way was attempting to upset anyone here. Thanks for listening!
jenStar
Posted by AuntieMel on July 27, 2005, at 17:16:55
In reply to An idea already, Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2005, at 14:30:40
How 'bout if people are required to register with a "permanent" email address. Meaning that gmail, hotmail, etc aren't allowed. People change their ISP fairly infrequently and this might cut down the number of times a person can come back with a different name.
It's not that hard to change an IP address.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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