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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 20, 2004, at 10:20:26
In reply to Re: my own advice, posted by JenStar on July 19, 2004, at 0:51:10
Posted by JenStar on July 19, 2004, at 0:51:10
> Also curious - your site says you can/may use some of the posts for possible publication. How is the book (article?) coming along? Have you selected any threads/topics here of special interest to the book?
>
> Don't worry - I'm not trying to involve you in a protracted email conversation here. :) Just curious. If you have an answer to this already posted somewhere in the FAQ, please direct me there.
>
> Take care & have a good week.
> JenStar
Posted by gardenergirl on July 20, 2004, at 11:34:21
In reply to Re: my own advice « JenStar, posted by Dr. Bob on July 20, 2004, at 10:20:26
Um, Dr. Bob...I don't think you answered her question.
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2004, at 7:34:52
In reply to Re: my own advice « JenStar, posted by Dr. Bob on July 20, 2004, at 10:20:26
> your site says you can/may use some of the posts for possible publication. How is the book (article?) coming along? Have you selected any threads/topics here of special interest to the book?
My current project is an article:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/290698.html
Sorry to take so long to reply, I was out of town, and then it got, um, busy...
Bob
Posted by TofuEmmy on August 2, 2004, at 8:25:25
In reply to Re: possible publication, posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2004, at 7:34:52
> As a moral courtesy to the posters who personally knew sar and those that knew her through the board would you please contact her family with your presentation so that they know what is being done with her words years after her death?
>
> zenhussyBob replies, "I think my position will be that she gave me permission to use her words in this way. Others are free to contact them if they think that's the right thing to do..."
As a family member of a person who died by suicide, I'd be mortified to discover some stranger was publishing an article about my loved one. Has the family yet been contacted by someone and approved this article?
Emmy aka emily4040 at PsychCentral
P.S. Bob - if this is how *I* go, you DO NOT have my permission to use ANY of my words after my death, go that???? Clear enough?????
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2004, at 9:24:10
In reply to Re: possible publication, posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2004, at 7:34:52
I've got to agree with Emmy.
Doesn't it seem exploitative to you? To use the words of someone who is not here to object? And to profit from a tragedy and from the grief resulting from a tragedy?
If it really is a topic that needs to be addressed for the greater good of mankind, couldn't it be done in a way that doesn't use sar's words or the words of those who loved her? And it's not really something that is generalizable anyway. I think it would be faulty thinking to conclude that what happened with sar was generalizable. It wasn't a "suicide in an online community", it was the suicide of *sar* in a community that had grown to have a unique relationship with *sar*. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the suicide of another member of this group would receive the same reaction, and even less to assume that a suicide in a different setting would receive a comparable reaction.
Isn't it nearly impossible to draw any conclusions from *one* event?
I'm a bit disappointed in you, Dr. Bob.
Posted by SandyWeb on August 2, 2004, at 9:29:42
In reply to Re: possible publication, posted by TofuEmmy on August 2, 2004, at 8:25:25
Dr. Bob,
It made me feel sick. I understand that you are trying to promote the effectiveness of an online support group, but I think you may have crossed the line with your presentation.
Just as Emmy said, I do NOT give you permission to use any of MY words for your future projects. If I die by my own hand, then that is MY own exclusive choice....and I don't want it broadcast to the world.
Be very careful where you are treading, Dr. Bob. Suicide can not be undone. Don't cause more grief than there already would be attached to it.
Sandy
Posted by TofuEmmy on August 2, 2004, at 9:47:04
In reply to Re: possible publication, posted by TofuEmmy on August 2, 2004, at 8:25:25
Remember, what you post here goes right into his article! So, I set up another place to vent. I'm sure you can guess where. And I'm sure Bob reads there too, so he'll get your message one way or the other.
emily4040
http://forums.grohol.com
Posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 17:31:44
In reply to Posting here goes in his article too, posted by TofuEmmy on August 2, 2004, at 9:47:04
It was my understanding that just by signing up for this group that we were giving permission for the information included in our posts to be used in Dr. B's academic studies. As long as there's no identifying information about the person, then I don't have a problem with it. Especially if it helps academic medicine gain a better understanding of suicide and how it impacts the people affected, especially in this forum where so many of us struggle with this issue often.
And remember that it's not like the publication would appear in your local newspaper. It would likely be either presented in lecture form or submitted to a peer reviewed psychiatric or psychology journal where the main purpose is to educate professionals.
starlight
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 2, 2004, at 21:06:14
In reply to Re: Posting here goes in his article too, posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 17:31:44
ps. Dr. Bob you can use any of what I have said on this site to help others. I am sure my comments are not all that helpful but....I am open.
I love that I can only say supportive comments on PB. This site has taught me some very important lessons.
I want to thank you, Dr. Bob, for giving me the opportunity to learn how to be supportive without being rescuing....
I now know the difference.I have been here since Nov. 2003 and I must say this is still the coolest site around.
A big thank you!
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2004, at 10:22:57
In reply to starlight nice post...I agree., posted by Jai Narayan on August 2, 2004, at 21:06:14
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:57:20
In reply to Re: thanks, and you're welcome (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2004, at 10:22:57
Perhaps if you could explain to *us* why our pain and sar's death, which to us were unique events and unlikely to be replicated even on this board, would be useful to the internet mental health community as a whole we wouldn't be as distressed to see our reactions in a publication.
Don't you think that the reaction was unique to sar and the unique place she held on the board? Part of what bothers me is that you are making it into *a* suicide on *an* internet mental health site. But the truth is that it always bothered me that people might think that the reaction to sar's death was standard. That the way to be remembered and loved would be to kill yourself. While the truth is that while we would, of course, mourn the death of any poster, there is no *standard* reaction to a suicide on the board. It was *sar's* suicide, not *a* suicide. If you wanted to make the publication more specific, it wouldn't bother me nearly as much.
Wouldn't you agree that if I were to commit suicide, the reaction wouldn't be at all similar? And each and every other person on the board is the same. We're all individuals, we all have unique relationships with the board, and you would need a really large sample size to draw any scientific conclusions. A large sample size that I hope you won't find here.
It would also rather interest me to see if anyone who was here at the time of sar's death feels positively about your using it in a publication.
Posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 15:03:29
In reply to Re: thanks, and you're welcome ? Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:57:20
I was here when sar was posting, as well as when the announcement was made that she committed suicide. I believe that education is paramount to prevention and understanding of reactions is a part of that.
starlight
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 15:41:14
In reply to Re: thanks, and you're welcome, posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 15:03:29
I'm sorry. I hadn't remembered your name from that period, but my memory is certainly not flawless, and that was a while back.
So do you think the situation is generalizable? I had thought long before sar's death that her relationship with the board and the people on it was pretty unique.
Posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 18:25:18
In reply to Re: thanks, and you're welcome ? starlight, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 15:41:14
Don't be sorry - it's fine, I take no offense ;>)
I work in academic medicine and that's how academic medicine works. It's different in psychology and psychiatry because you're dealing with emotional, physical and personal issues that are sensitive, but after looking at Bob's presentation, I see nothing personally revealing. It may seem a little cold, but remember - these guys are scientists and that's how they think! They're not void of emotion, but when making presentations and such, it's pretty cut and dry - just the facts m'aam.
I think these boards are unique and that technology has and will continue to change mental health research and treatment. It behooves us and the professionals to better understand how that impacts patients, especially in the case of suicide. I think of this as one big group therapy.
If you were in a therapy group sponsored by a university and someone committed suicide, a professor could present his research to his peers/journals on how the group reactions, the impact, etc., etc. They have to protect your personal information, but the rest is fodder for future teaching. (Fodder is kind of a bad word - but I couldn't think of another).
It's kind of like donating your body to medical science - just not your name.
starlight
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2004, at 18:36:23
In reply to Re: thanks, and you're welcome » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:57:20
> Perhaps if you could explain to *us* why our pain and sar's death, which to us were unique events and unlikely to be replicated even on this board, would be useful to the internet mental health community as a whole we wouldn't be as distressed to see our reactions in a publication.
I think of course there were some aspects that were unique, but there may also have been others that weren't.
> it always bothered me that people might think ... That the way to be remembered and loved would be to kill yourself.
I agree, suicide "contagion" is a serious concern.
> If you wanted to make the publication more specific, it wouldn't bother me nearly as much.
Isn't it already specific to her suicide, this board, etc.?
> We're all individuals, we all have unique relationships with the board, and you would need a really large sample size to draw any scientific conclusions. A large sample size that I hope you won't find here.
Right, and when there aren't large samples, case reports can be helpful.
Bob
Posted by JenStar on August 24, 2004, at 1:01:38
In reply to Re: possible publication, posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2004, at 7:34:52
Dr. Bob,
The slide outline looked interesting. I imagine that the inclusion of posts (for review) would strengthen your points & help draw in the audience to understand.One item I didn't see mentioned (although you might have talked about it): Did behavior change on the board AS A RESULT OF the suicide? For example, did people become more empathetic, more compassionate, more worried if suicidal posters took unannounced 'breaks', etc? If so, how long did that period of heightened general concern last before going back down to baseline? Did you find the surge (if any) different from what might be seen in a physical peer group?
I was interested in your comment that guilt was "diffused" -- is that compared to a peer group who know each other IRL? Would you say it is diffused because of the emotional (and obviously physical) distance conferred by the electronic media?
I was just reading an article about Zell Kravinsky, the man who donated a kidney in a non-directed donation. In the article regarding him in The New Yorker, the author Ian Parker mentioned an ethical puzzle called the Shallow Pond and the Envelope. If a child falls into a pool in front of you, do you save him/her? And if you are asked to donate money to save starving children abroad, do you do it? Are the 'crimes' of inaction in both cases equal? People appear to feel that not sending money is more acceptable, probably because the dying child is far away. Do you think this kind of principle is at play here on this (and other) boards?
In general, do you find that this group of people behave similarly to a therapeutic group (albeit larger and less organized) IRL? Do you think that it is possible or probable that a suicide could be prevented or encouraged by posts on this (or any) board? Did you see evidence that this suicide was delayed or hastened by the person's interactions here?
I know I just asked a ton of questions. I understand if you don't wish to or don't have time to respond.
To others reading my post here: I didn't know the person who committed suicide, and because of this, I *only* have an academic and non-personal interest in the article. I apologize to all who loved her and knew her. It must be hard to hear about a friend being discussed as a statistic or a case study. Please understand that I have a strong interest in what Dr. Bob is learning from this board & these posts and I'm not trying to disrespect your friend.
thanks!
JenStar
> > your site says you can/may use some of the posts for possible publication. How is the book (article?) coming along? Have you selected any threads/topics here of special interest to the book?
>
> My current project is an article:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/290698.html
>
> Sorry to take so long to reply, I was out of town, and then it got, um, busy...
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2004, at 13:05:52
In reply to Re: possible publication - questions » Dr. Bob, posted by JenStar on August 24, 2004, at 1:01:38
> Did behavior change on the board AS A RESULT OF the suicide? For example, did people become more empathetic, more compassionate, more worried if suicidal posters took unannounced 'breaks', etc?
Good question. But to answer it, there would need to be a way to measure empathy, compassion, worry, etc.
> I was interested in your comment that guilt was "diffused" -- is that compared to a peer group who know each other IRL? Would you say it is diffused because of the emotional (and obviously physical) distance conferred by the electronic media?
I meant in a group as opposed to one-on-one. IMO BTW, electronic communication doesn't necessarily lead to emotional distance. On the contrary, people can feel safer, open up more, and get emotionally closer.
> In general, do you find that this group of people behave similarly to a therapeutic group (albeit larger and less organized) IRL?
Another good question. I don't have a lot of experience with groups IRL. And I don't know if there are any this large and disorganized! :-)
> Do you think that it is possible or probable that a suicide could be prevented or encouraged by posts on this (or any) board?
Sure.
> Did you see evidence that this suicide was delayed or hastened by the person's interactions here?
In an individual case, how can anyone know what might have been?
Bob
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 12:01:25
In reply to Re: questions, posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2004, at 13:05:52
thanks for your response. I can see that some of my questions presuppose a more intimate knowledge of what posters are really thinking, as well as an anticipation of a yes/no answer.
For example, my mypothesis would be that behavior WOULD change (temporarily) as a result of a suicide -- people would post messages that seemed to be more empathetic based on the word choices in them, and that people might seem to be more concerned about others, based on the language they used or the concern they expressed if they didn't hear from someone in a while. I also hypothesize that this would eventually fade back down to "normal" after a while, esp. if the board is "diluted" with newcomers.
After I asked that question I realized that the board is such a fluid place that it would be hard to get a baseline from which to measure change.Other things I'd be interested in reading about (if you ever wrote them up!) would be: how do people on the board respond to you as an authority figure, and does this differ in any way from experiences IRL as an authority figure; the formation of board cliques and the group acceptance of exclusion of certain behaviors (or individuals) and how that is similar/different from behavior in RL groups; unappointed natural "group leaders" or "gurus" and how their presence steers, directs, changes and influences the posts of others on the board over time.
Do you have other articles planned?
thanks for sharing the one you did.
If you don't mind a few more questions...how was it received by your audience?JenStar
> > Did behavior change on the board AS A RESULT OF the suicide? For example, did people become more empathetic, more compassionate, more worried if suicidal posters took unannounced 'breaks', etc?
>
> Good question. But to answer it, there would need to be a way to measure empathy, compassion, worry, etc.
>
> > I was interested in your comment that guilt was "diffused" -- is that compared to a peer group who know each other IRL? Would you say it is diffused because of the emotional (and obviously physical) distance conferred by the electronic media?
>
> I meant in a group as opposed to one-on-one. IMO BTW, electronic communication doesn't necessarily lead to emotional distance. On the contrary, people can feel safer, open up more, and get emotionally closer.
>
> > In general, do you find that this group of people behave similarly to a therapeutic group (albeit larger and less organized) IRL?
>
> Another good question. I don't have a lot of experience with groups IRL. And I don't know if there are any this large and disorganized! :-)
>
> > Do you think that it is possible or probable that a suicide could be prevented or encouraged by posts on this (or any) board?
>
> Sure.
>
> > Did you see evidence that this suicide was delayed or hastened by the person's interactions here?
>
> In an individual case, how can anyone know what might have been?
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 27, 2004, at 11:13:53
In reply to Re: questions » Dr. Bob, posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 12:01:25
> how do people on the board respond to you as an authority figure
That one you can see for yourself! :-)
> does this differ in any way from experiences IRL
That's a good question in general...
> Do you have other articles planned?
There might be a survey of some sort coming up, stay tuned...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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