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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Elle2021 on November 26, 2003, at 6:00:51
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Larry Hoover, posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:30
I wish everyone could be this understanding. :) Thank you for being so kind to the borderlines in your life.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » ramsea, posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 9:45:14
So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters? I always thought here was a pretty good place because people here understood what it felt like to want to die.
Posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:13:30
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
> So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters? I always thought here was a pretty good place because people here understood what it felt like to want to die.
<<Hi, Dinah,
I don't agree with that myself. I'd never want to ban someone who has suicidal urges at all, and to whatever tiny extent I could help that person, I would.
The difference for me is how it's worded. Saying, "hey, I feel like killing myself cuz I'm in so much pain, what can I do?" is a lot different than threatening to kill yourself just to get a reaction out of people on the board. Of course, I know it's difficult to figure out the difference sometimes, and impossible, probably, to make any sort of guideline about it.
And *faking* suicide or hospitalization, just to get sympathy, is really sad, too. I think there are so many people here who are sympathetic to people's pain, there's no reason to cry out in a deceitful manner for help. I think in those circumstances, the good of the many has to be considered over the good of the one.
I'm certainly not a therapist or anything close. But I *do* know reacting (positively *or* negatively) to any specific behavior reinforces it. I'd like to concentrate on reinforcing good, honest behavior, and try to ignore the deceitful type of behavior.
I think it's human nature to answer *honest* cries for help rather than deceitful, false ones. We reach out to people who need our help, not to people who hurt us. I know this point of view means I'm not the strongest most loving person in the world, but it's the best I can do right now.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:18:19
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
I don't understand it like that.. But my brain is a little dim at the moment.
I think.. people should be able to post that they feel suicidal, that they'd like to do it etc..
But, I do think posting that someone is dead, when they're not, is wrong...theres a big difference between feeling suicidal, or even threatening suicide, and actually saying that you've done it.
Just my thoughts
Nikki x
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:23:27
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:13:30
Hi Susan,
Re-enforcing bad behaviours is something I talk alot about when I do my sessions with Mental health students and psychs etc..
The services, here in the UK atleast, make me angry in that you ring them up and say "I want to commit suicide", or "I want to self harm" and they tell you to take a pill, go to sleep, come back another day.
But if you ring them up and say "I've taken an overdose" or "I've cut myself really really badly" then you get help straight away.
I think that reaction is wrong.. the people who are asking for help before acting out, or try to control those urges should be given equal treatment to those that ARE acting out. As the system works, people are more inclicned to act out before asking for help, as they know they'll get more help that way.When I was in hospital, I was virtually ignored as I was quiet and not acting out. Yet the loud scary ones, were given constant attention. My need was just as great, but because I didn't want to be seen as a pain, I was treated as if I wasn't ill.
Thats why if someone says to me "Help, I feel like doing x, y or z" I will offer help and support. But if someone says to me "I have done x, y or z" I am less likely to offer help, just advice on where else to go.
Sorry.. gone off on one there.. But just supporting what you said!!
Nikki x
Posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:41:29
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Susan J, posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:23:27
Hi, Nikki,
>> But if you ring them up and say "I've taken an overdose" or "I've cut myself really really badly" then you get help straight away.
<<Yeah, I don't know if it's like that here in the States, but I wouldn't be surprised. There's real truth in that saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease."> When I was in hospital, I was virtually ignored as I was quiet and not acting out. Yet the loud scary ones, were given constant attention. My need was just as great, but because I didn't want to be seen as a pain, I was treated as if I wasn't ill.
<<That's not good at all. You are right. We (as a society) tend to reinforce bad behavior a lot, because we want the bad behavior to stop. We don't seem to concentrate enough on trying to *prevent* it....> Sorry.. gone off on one there.. But just supporting what you said!!
<<Nothing to be sorry about. I totally agree with you. It's actually been the story of my life....I'm quiet and don't ask for stuff, and get ignored. There's *got* to be a happy medium somewhere. Speak up with strength and honesty, but not in an angry, intimidating, deceiving, self-aggrandizing way. (hope I used that word properly, not totally sure what it means) :-)Take care,
Susan
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 11:52:58
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » NikkiT2, posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:41:29
Hi Susan,
I'm learning to speak up in a non-angry way.. The work I do for this charity is spilling out into not just personality Disorder stuff, but more general mental health. I know not everyone can do this kind if stuff, so I feel honoured to be invited to the thiings I'm involved in.. But too many people are quick to moan, but not do anything about it. I asked at the BPD group I'm a member of, for ideas on good / bad treatment (like I did here too), and not one single person answered - out of 122 members. many are very vocal on the list about how badly they are treated, but they were offered the chance to get their voice out there, via me, and not one person took it.
But, by practicing and getting good at this, I can get my message out there. And positive-reinforcement is one of the messages. Don't just ignore us quiet ones and give all your attention to the acting out ones! Isn't there something they tell you in first aid courses?? Something about at a major road crash, go see the quiet ones first, and leave the noisy ones for second, as the quiet ones are often the most seriously ill. Hmm.. I must remember that analogy (if thats the right word!!)
I'm so passionate about this at the moment.. I'm hoping to get my NHS trust to pay for me to do an advocacy course.. Its something I'm enjoying so much.
Nikki x
Posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 12:18:01
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Susan J, posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 11:52:58
Nikki,
> But, by practicing and getting good at this, I can get my message out there. And positive-reinforcement is one of the messages. Don't just ignore us quiet ones and give all your attention to the acting out ones! Isn't there something they tell you in first aid courses??
<<I think that's really great! Anything that helps people think differently, and therefore see and understand more, is wonderful in my book.> I'm so passionate about this at the moment.. I'm hoping to get my NHS trust to pay for me to do an advocacy course.. Its something I'm enjoying so much.
<<That's very cool, too. I wish I could find something in life that I could be passionate about -- that would help other people. I don't think my movie habit does anyone much good but the movie theatre coffers.... :-)Susan
Posted by Elle2021 on November 27, 2003, at 6:21:56
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
> So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters? I always thought here was a pretty good place because people here understood what it felt like to want to die.
I was also under the impression that this would be the appropriate place to discuss such thoughts.
Elle
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 7:00:08
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on November 27, 2003, at 6:21:56
> > So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters? I always thought here was a pretty good place because people here understood what it felt like to want to die.
>
> I was also under the impression that this would be the appropriate place to discuss such thoughts.
> ElleYes. I think that's an important and relevant topic of discussion.
I had hoped it was clear that I was discriminating between the thoughts (suicidal ideation), and the act itself.
And I don't think there's anything close to a consensus yet.
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 28, 2003, at 1:37:00
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 7:00:08
> Yes. I think that's an important and relevant topic of discussion.
Me too.
>
> I had hoped it was clear that I was discriminating between the thoughts (suicidal ideation), and the act itself.You have made yourself clear now. :)
> And I don't think there's anything close to a consensus yet.
Right you are Lar! (that rhymes!)
Elle
Posted by ramsea on November 28, 2003, at 5:27:43
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Larry Hoover, posted by Elle2021 on November 28, 2003, at 1:37:00
Thanks for letting me into the discussion, guys. You've hit upon some important matters. I like the idea of a separate board for posters with difficulties like suicidal ideation, self-harm, and needing to vent, etc. Then Dr. Bob could stipulate the rules governing that site.
It could even be stated plainly that if anyone is discovered to be misusing the board through false claims or untrue cries for help, they will be banned--or whatever. That way posters who do need support in this way can be helped by other posters who are up for this (or they shouldn't use that board).
It might be useful to everyone if the site descriptions make it very very clear that a certain board is a ***spoiler***territory, and contains language and imagery that might be upsetting to some.
This problem could arise again, so being prepared for it, and having carefully thought put rules to deal with all eventualities, might be a way forward. I expect it would need to be clear that saying one is suicidal on the board could have repercussion in real space---so don't say it if you're not prepared for others to take actions.
Actually, I don't know anything about this on-board stuff, about legal matter related to board threats and claims, or whether someone saying they're suicidal means someone is morally or legally required to seek help for them. It's all tricky. But I do think a separate ***spoiler*** board might help.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 5:58:06
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by ramsea on November 28, 2003, at 5:27:43
> Thanks for letting me into the discussion, guys. You've hit upon some important matters. I like the idea of a separate board for posters with difficulties like suicidal ideation, self-harm, and needing to vent, etc. Then Dr. Bob could stipulate the rules governing that site.
>
> It could even be stated plainly that if anyone is discovered to be misusing the board through false claims or untrue cries for help, they will be banned--or whatever. That way posters who do need support in this way can be helped by other posters who are up for this (or they shouldn't use that board).
>
> It might be useful to everyone if the site descriptions make it very very clear that a certain board is a ***spoiler***territory, and contains language and imagery that might be upsetting to some.
>
> This problem could arise again, so being prepared for it, and having carefully thought put rules to deal with all eventualities, might be a way forward. I expect it would need to be clear that saying one is suicidal on the board could have repercussion in real space---so don't say it if you're not prepared for others to take actions.
>
> Actually, I don't know anything about this on-board stuff, about legal matter related to board threats and claims, or whether someone saying they're suicidal means someone is morally or legally required to seek help for them. It's all tricky. But I do think a separate ***spoiler*** board might help.I'm less supportive of a separate board for suicidal ideation. I think the social and psychological boards are fine...either one, depending on where the individual has a greater level of existing support.
If the registration protocol was changed, if it was a non-negotiable term of policy, that an administrative decision might be made to notify local authorities if risk of harm was observed, then that would suit me.
If I understand correctly, Bob notifies the authorities if a criminal threat is made....for example.
There are degrees of suicidal ideation. I'd hate for someone to ever hesitate during such a time, and try to determine if they meet some criterion or another (like where can I post this, should I post this), at the very time their perception and cognition may be heavily biased and distorted.
And I don't like the word repercussions applied in this context.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 28, 2003, at 8:39:11
In reply to Re: suicidal ideatin » ramsea, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 5:58:06
>
> I'm less supportive of a separate board for suicidal ideation. I think the social and psychological boards are fine...either one, depending on where the individual has a greater level of existing support.
>
I think that's a valid point, Lar. In fact I'd go so far as to say Dr. Bob should be a bit relaxed on the rules if a primarily meds board person was in trouble, since some meds board people don't seem to like a redirect, and that wouldn't seem to be the time to be strictly adhering to the rules. Babble is a part of our support network for a lot of us, myself included.> If the registration protocol was changed, if it was a non-negotiable term of policy, that an administrative decision might be made to notify local authorities if risk of harm was observed, then that would suit me.
>
I think the problem there would be expectations. Dr. Bob isn't always on board, and I'd doubt he'd want people to think they could rely on him to report anything, because they really can't rely on him to do anything quickly enough to prevent a tragedy. So I'm sure he wouldn't want it to be part of the registration process, except to say that he *couldn't*.> If I understand correctly, Bob notifies the authorities if a criminal threat is made....for example.
>He has, he also has reported serious suicide threats. But he can only do it if he becomes aware of it.
Posted by ramsea on November 28, 2003, at 13:40:12
In reply to Re: suicidal ideatin, posted by Dinah on November 28, 2003, at 8:39:11
Good points. Thanks Lar for the info. I only use the word "repurcussions" in a limited way, i.e., I agree the word should not be used to inform posters of anything. It does sound punitive.
I do believe posters need clear statements of what can happen when using the boards. Dr. Bob does state that posters need to be aware of their situation as posters--I was glad to see his advisements. I was just wondering if it could be more clear when it comes to issues like discussing suicide.
I've come across some seriously upset net users who have had, well---repurcussions. They stated suicidal ideas in one of the mental health groups and then some group member or other apparently has gone to some trouble to secure emergency services for them. In the 3 or 4 cases I've come across through the years of surfing websites, the posters were very distressed about having been "turned in". They hadn't expected anything like that to happen.
It's no excuse I know, but some of us tend to forget how public the boards and sites really are. One super aspect about Dr. Bob's approach is that he constantly reminds group members that this is a very public place. Still, it's pretty easy to get lured into private discussions. We may think we're just expressing ourselves as people might in a rural bar after a few too many beers, and say stupid, out of character things, or act overdramatically.
It's frighteningly easy to make a major mistake that could have serious effects on our lives. Like drawing several police cars and ambulances at the door, or being hospitalized against our will. All of this when really the person was only momentarily out of it, as most people do get from time to time.
Whether the group has a separate board for suicidal problems or not is really not important to me. I would leave that to those of you who know more about how this site functions. I do think it should be very clear what may happen--or not---to posters who cry out for help.
Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 17:51:00
In reply to Re: offering help » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:11:30
Larry, I agree with you that it isn't possible to completely block out troublesome posts or threads.
I know it takes a lot of effort and determination to do this, but given the limitations of the board that you mention, I think it is possible (and I find it necessary) to choose to not open certain posts that I know or suspect will be problematic for me.
And it's true, there are times when I open a post that seems benign enough and only then discover that it is something I wish I hadn't opened. But then I choose to close it and move on.
It isn't easy, I admit. It has gotten much easier over time, though--I guess with practice. It's not a perfect solution. And I hope it doesn't seem like I'm minimizing the impact of detrimental posts.
Perhaps another solution will be found by this group. For now, this is what I offer, fwiw.
Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 17:55:52
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
> So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters?
I hope not, Dinah. But I think there are different ways that these feelings get talked about. I don't have much difficulty with people talking about their suicidal feelings, but threats and repeated help-rejecting I do find extremely difficult.
Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 17:59:26
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Susan J, posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:23:27
You're right. Here in the states, as funding for MH services have shriveled away, and managed cost health insurance has prevailed, you can't get proper services pretty much unless you have the knife to your wrist or something. It is just awful that resources are not there to help people prevent crises and learn to cope before it gets that bad.
Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 18:05:40
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » NikkiT2, posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:41:29
>It's actually been the story of my life....I'm quiet and don't ask for stuff, and get ignored.
I am reminded of that great scene in "Terms of Endearment" -- Debra Winger's character is quietly suffering excruciating cancer pain as her medicine has worn off, so Shirley MacLaine, who plays her mother throws a huge screaming fit at the nurses' station because the nurses are slow to get the next dose in.
Posted by stjames on November 28, 2003, at 19:30:03
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 17:55:52
> > So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters?
>
> I hope not, Dinah. But I think there are different ways that these feelings get talked about. I don't have much difficulty with people talking about their suicidal feelings, but threats and repeated help-rejecting I do find extremely difficult.If you go back the beginning of this thread, before it rolled over, you will see this is not
what anyone was suggesting.
Posted by Elle2021 on November 30, 2003, at 8:27:42
In reply to Re: suicidal ideatin, posted by ramsea on November 28, 2003, at 13:40:12
Well, I think that just about made me scared and paranoid enough to never post on any of these boards again. I didn't know it was so easy to make things public.
Elle> It's no excuse I know, but some of us tend to forget how public the boards and sites really are. One super aspect about Dr. Bob's approach is that he constantly reminds group members that this is a very public place. Still, it's pretty easy to get lured into private discussions. We may think we're just expressing ourselves as people might in a rural bar after a few too many beers, and say stupid, out of character things, or act overdramatically.
>
> It's frighteningly easy to make a major mistake that could have serious effects on our lives. Like drawing several police cars and ambulances at the door, or being hospitalized against our will. All of this when really the person was only momentarily out of it, as most people do get from time to time.
>
> Whether the group has a separate board for suicidal problems or not is really not important to me. I would leave that to those of you who know more about how this site functions. I do think it should be very clear what may happen--or not---to posters who cry out for help.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 11:04:20
In reply to Re: suicidal ideatin » ramsea, posted by Elle2021 on November 30, 2003, at 8:27:42
> Well, I think that just about made me scared and paranoid enough to never post on any of these boards again. I didn't know it was so easy to make things public.
> ElleIt is public, but nobody knows who you really are, ya know?
Babble is linked by google. I don't know anything more public than that.
Just don't reveal too much, and you're merely one of the billions of people on the planet.
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 30, 2003, at 12:14:20
In reply to Re: public? only sort of » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 11:04:20
> It is public, but nobody knows who you really are, ya know?
Yes, that is comforting.
>
> Babble is linked by google. I don't know anything more public than that.
>
> Just don't reveal too much, and you're merely one of the billions of people on the planet.Good plan... :)
Thank you Lar for responding, I was seriously considering bagging the whole Babble thing (I get paranoid so easily these days). Thanks for bringing things back into perspective for me. I appreciate it.
Elle
Posted by ramsea on December 3, 2003, at 6:16:25
In reply to ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 20, 2003, at 19:52:37
I find it hard not to respond to this comment, though I am not in sequence here.
It's a myth that borderliners are necessarily gameplaying with their risky, self-destructive behavior. In other words, since any human being is capable of manipulativeness and acting out in a negative way, I am sure borderliners do this too. Because they are troubled people, they may well do this more often, ntil treated successfully. But it seems a mistake to jump to the conclusion that a borderline pd person is playing games/or that a person who plays "games" with suicide-issues is ipso facto a borderline personality disordered person. Borderline diagnosed people don't own the rights to manipulativeness. The human race does.
It's also a myth that BPD people are only ever calling wolf. In fact, Borderliners have a high rate of successful suicide. 1 out of every 10 bpd dx persons will die as a result of suicide.
Every successful suicide that I have known was labelled borderline PD. I know quite a few because of both my personal family circumstances, the community I hang out with due to my own illness (bipolar) and my previous profession (in mental health). It is so tragic.Self-harming, in terms of certain cutting behaviors, is frequently not a suicide-effort, but a self-medication. It releases endorphins and distracts the person in pain from their overwhelming emotional difficuties. Head banging can be like that, and overexercising, overeating, etc. It's important to know what self-harmers are up to, because they are often very misunderstood.
I try to remember that reasons for self-harming can be quite complex. Sometimes there is a cry for help, and one can only hope they get help. Sometimes attention seeking, and I can only hope they find appropriate venues for receiving attention--clearly they are in great need.Sometimes they are angry, consumed by rages. I can only hope they are given urgent treatment to root out sources of anger and resentment, biological or psychological. Many times, however, self-harming activities are a private means to make the hurting self feel better. This came as a surprise to me but many years ago I attended work-related self-harming workshops, led by self-harmers who also wrote extensively on the subject, and this is what I was told. I have since seen it to be true. (Tragically, one of the leading lights in self-harming self-help and awareness, successfully suicided a few years ago.)I have known individuals with sub-normal IQs and very low cunning, who were addicted to self-harming behaviors. They self-harmed because it physically soothed them. They didn't give a monkies whether anyone was watching--it was no show, no clever tactic to be the star of ER. Just a physical action that brought momentarily relief. We need to remember that "manipulating" others is not by any means the main goal of all unfortunate behavior.
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 3, 2003, at 6:44:37
In reply to Re: suicidal ideatin, posted by ramsea on November 28, 2003, at 13:40:12
you write beautifuly,
we dont have to fit every criteria to be labeled, do we?
my love affair with a knife is very private .
for someone to think that si is for "attention",
or for a suicide attempt to be thought of as a cry for help.."be spot lighted": i say these are basic needs of humanity ?
lets hope everyone learns healthier ways to acheive this,, or more so , lets hope for peace and contentness(is that a word?)
for everyone
j
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