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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 61 to 85 of 108. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 10:12:33
> That's what I was trying to say, Nikki. A label might be useful to understand what someont is feeling. But it shouldn't be used to lump everyone with that label together. There are lots of people with Borderline Personality Disorder on these boards, a lot of recovering people with BPD, and a lot of people like me who've never been diagnosed but certainly have a lot of the internal characteristics, who work really really hard to not let our internal pain cause pain to others.
Ok. My reference was ill advised. I know you know you're not your label. I know you know that a diagnosis is not predictive of behaviour. I hope you know I know that, too.
Are my comments still valid, without any reference to diagnosis?
> It might lead me to have compassion, but I would never ever extend my expectations of behavior to an entire group of people.
Nor did I intend my reference to one behaviour associated with a particular diagnostic category to generalize to all people diagnosed as such.
> (Lar, you've said you have had two people with BPD in your life, and that might influence your views.I am sure it does. Both displayed parasuicide.
> But I could name on this board a number of people who have identified themselves as having or having had BPD who are consistently concerned for the feelings of others and are consistently helpful and supportive. Let's not make it into an us vs. them?
I never meant it to be one.
> And I wouldn't even be sure which side of the stadium to sit on. So let's not do that?)
Ok.
Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 12:52:24
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
>
> Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
>
> LarThanks, Lar. And certainly not. Contrary to what it may seem from my posts, I actually fall in empathy towards the side of those harmed by false reporting. Parasuicidal threats I'm more iffy about. I know there are those who are angry at people who express suicidal intent here on the board, but I'm not one of them. Expressions of suicidal intent are frequently quite sincere, and I would hate to ban them from the boards. I even hate to see them discouraged by the anger that sometimes results from them. I know I find myself censoring my musings on the matter. False reporting, by definition, would be less sincere. And Dr. Bob says they are a civility violation, and I'm glad of that.
Posted by noa on November 22, 2003, at 16:55:42
In reply to Re: BPD » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 8:24:12
I have only read a handful of the messages on this long thread, but I just wanted to say something that may be simplistic and obvious, but how I feel about responding to certain posts or posters basically boils down to this:
It is very hard to help someone when they reject help or refuse to get the kind of help they need.
I suppose this also means that there may be times when I know I cannot help someone because the kind of help I can offer is either not the right kind of help that they need or is clearly not enough.Further, although it is always hard to know for sure on the internet just how serious or how genuine a person's cry for help is, I know that for myself, if I feel someone has not been honest about this, then I do not feel I can help or continue to interact with that person.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 17:27:41
In reply to Re: offering help, posted by noa on November 22, 2003, at 16:55:42
> I have only read a handful of the messages on this long thread, but I just wanted to say something that may be simplistic and obvious, but how I feel about responding to certain posts or posters basically boils down to this:
>
> It is very hard to help someone when they reject help or refuse to get the kind of help they need.
>
>
> I suppose this also means that there may be times when I know I cannot help someone because the kind of help I can offer is either not the right kind of help that they need or is clearly not enough.
>
> Further, although it is always hard to know for sure on the internet just how serious or how genuine a person's cry for help is, I know that for myself, if I feel someone has not been honest about this, then I do not feel I can help or continue to interact with that person.If you'll forgive me for tagging onto the end of your fine post....
One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome. I'm stuck sharing the environment, even if it is my choice not to do so with a particular individual. The effects propogate outwards like ripples in a pond, whether I like it or not. I don't think I should have to ostracize myself to protect myself from outside instigation, but without Bob's input, that's the only choice I really have.
Lar
Posted by stjames on November 22, 2003, at 17:56:50
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - - Re: ban for suicide postings?? » stjames, posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:39:48
I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that we are not obligated to read and respond to each and every post that comes our way. If I see a post that looks tiggering or upsetting, I don't read it. I have done it before, I will continue to do it. God bless you.
> Elle
>When one person turns the whole board into chaos,
how I to avoid a post ? I think you are minimizing the hurt and disorder that is caused by this.
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 19:13:47
In reply to Re: BPD » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 8:24:12
>Another poster has asked for compassion *because* of the link with parasuicidal behaviour.
That was me Lar and I still stand by my original statement.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 19:16:34
In reply to ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 22, 2003, at 17:56:50
> When one person turns the whole board into chaos,how I to avoid a post ? I think you are minimizing the hurt and disorder that is caused by this.
I'm sorry if I have made you feel that way. I am not trying to minimize how much her actions have hurt you or other posters.
Elle
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2003, at 19:26:32
In reply to Re: offering help » noa, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 17:27:41
> Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
No one is required to extend their empathy (or even reply) to anyone else. But if they post, they need to be civil. Expressions of empathy aren't necessarily civil (from someone else's perspective).
> One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome.
No, but you can not read their posts...
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:06:15
In reply to Re: BPD » Larry Hoover, posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 19:13:47
> >Another poster has asked for compassion *because* of the link with parasuicidal behaviour.
>
> That was me Lar and I still stand by my original statement.
> ElleI know. I didn't want to center you out.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:11:30
In reply to Re: offering help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2003, at 19:26:32
> > One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome.
>
> No, but you can not read their posts...
>
> BobI think your solution is demonstrably flawed. If it was that simple, there would be nobody hurt by any of this. Moreover, as I said, it spreads like ripples across a pond. We're like objects dangling from a mobile, each quite separate, yet attached. You can't move one object without all the objects moving. A big event cannot be ignored by simply turning one's head.
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 20:13:46
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:06:15
> I know. I didn't want to center you out.
:) Thanks for being considerate. I don't mind though, if I said it, then I ought to have the guts to stand by it.
Despite our opposing points, I think your a sweet guy Lar.
Elle
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:27:09
In reply to Re: BPD » Larry Hoover, posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 20:13:46
> > I know. I didn't want to center you out.
>
> :) Thanks for being considerate. I don't mind though, if I said it, then I ought to have the guts to stand by it.
>
> Despite our opposing points, I think your a sweet guy Lar.
> ElleAww... <blush>
I appreciate your generous contributions to this discussion.
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 20:32:03
In reply to Re: BPD » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:27:09
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2003, at 0:10:10
In reply to Re: offering help » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:11:30
> > > One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome.
> >
> > No, but you can not read their posts...
>
> I think your solution is demonstrably flawed. If it was that simple, there would be nobody hurt by any of this. Moreover, as I said, it spreads like ripples across a pond. We're like objects dangling from a mobile, each quite separate, yet attached. You can't move one object without all the objects moving. A big event cannot be ignored by simply turning one's head.Feeling hurt is one thing. Yes, events will cause ripples. But continuing to interact is another. Posters have some ability, unlike components of a mobile, to control how affected they are by ripples -- and to what extent they propagate them.
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 7:44:35
In reply to Re: offering help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2003, at 0:10:10
> Feeling hurt is one thing. Yes, events will cause ripples. But continuing to interact is another. Posters have some ability, unlike components of a mobile, to control how affected they are by ripples -- and to what extent they propagate them.
>
> BobIf matters were as simple as you imply, you wouldn't use blocks. They would be unnecessary.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2003, at 17:08:05
In reply to Re: offering help » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 7:44:35
> > Feeling hurt is one thing. Yes, events will cause ripples. But continuing to interact is another. Posters have some ability, unlike components of a mobile, to control how affected they are by ripples -- and to what extent they propagate them.
>
> If matters were as simple as you imply, you wouldn't use blocks. They would be unnecessary.I didn't mean to imply that it was simple...
Bob
Posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:30
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
Is this a question for everyone or just between you two? If it's meant to be more private, sorry for interrupting. I have known so-called borderline personality disorder diagnosed people, and am sad to say that three of them are no longer with us--while they did have parasuicide incidents, they were actually bent on going for the "real thing" too. BPD has a high successful suicide rate.
Sometimes a BPD person who parasuicides is considered to be practicing for the real thing. Sometimes they don't intend fatality at that point. They are often treated to great social castigation for their parasuicide behavior. Now, as a person who has know BPD diagnosed persons very well, I can agree Larry that it is VERY hard on the family/friend. It tries loved ones patientce and tolerance very deeply.
Like any other severe illness (and my mind believes they are ill, not bad), we can end up just wishing they'd never come into our lives, because it is so hard on us. And then that feeling just makes us feel horribly guilty. So it can be a lose/lose situation. I have tremendous empathy for relatives/friends of a BPD dx person who engages in parasuicidal acts.
It seems some pdocs believe that BPD is actually a form of both PTSD and bipolar II. If that is the case the person who "fakes" may be prepping for the real thing. On the other hand, such a person may have other difficulties. Overly dramatic, theatrical persons might do this, or a very bored, very unsatisfied person. The behavior may have nothing to do with a psychiatric problem.
Of course everyone in this thread is aware of these possibilities. But I am always hooked when people start mentioning borderline PD and a troublesome behavior in the same breath. Especially if the implication is that there is something fakey about the person and rather wickedly manipulative. In MHO BPD is a mistaken label. It covers too much ground. It's too female identified. If there is a problem with rapid cycling mood swings, sounds bipolar to me. If there are flashbacks, etc, of trauma/abuse in background, I agree with those pdocs who look to PTSD. If there's a lot of antisocial behavior going on, as in pretending to die and so forth, it seems we should call it antisocial and not "borderline", as it is possibly more descriptive? I mean, it strikes me as more of an antisocial thing than parasuicide, as a so-called parasuicide act usually involves dangerous, risky begavior that could maim, injure or kill the person even if they didn't want it. This particular incident reminds me of a friend of mine who told everyone she was dying of cancer and kept it up for awhile with dire consequences. Her "diagnosis" is antisocial PD. She was also abused most horrifcally in childhood (documented in court records).
Outside of serious personality disorde or mental illness, I suspect some people are troublesome, stressed out and gameplaying to an extreme and require serious therapy.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 9:45:14
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Larry Hoover, posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:30
> Is this a question for everyone or just between you two?
I was *so* hoping that more people would express themselves. Thank you.
> If it's meant to be more private, sorry for interrupting.
Not in the least. I hope you don't mind my editing your post to focus more closely on certain ideas.
> Now, as a person who has know BPD diagnosed persons very well, I can agree Larry that it is VERY hard on the family/friend. It tries loved ones patientce and tolerance very deeply.
Absolutely.
> Like any other severe illness (and my mind believes they are ill, not bad),
Ill, not malevolent. I have to assume that, even if I am wrong.
> Especially if the implication is that there is something fakey about the person and rather wickedly manipulative.
That's not what I meant by anything I said. It is a particular behaviour (the topic of this thread) that is excessively hurtful, though.
What I question is, how appropriate is it to seek "substantial" levels of support here, in these forums? Let me expand.
The need for support is not questioned (I hope). The behaviour is not malevolent (I hope).
The behaviour can be massively disruptive to other vulnerable people (we *are* a selected population). That is not in question (I hope).
Any support available here is probably inadequate, or at least, not substantial (my inference).It's a practise here to redirect on a topical basis.
It's a practise here to consider the impact of any posting on even hypothetical readers thereof.
It is a practise here to prevent posting by posters who ignore the feelings of others, *even if unintentional*.
Why would it not be a practise to redirect certain forms of posting to community-based supports? Is that feasible?
It is a practise on other similar boards to delete any such posts, and to report them to relevant authorities if the identity of the poster can be traced.
The deletion is to prevent any sense of rewarding the poster, and to minimize the the impact of the posting itself. The reporting is to provide the maximum level of community-based support that might be available. What more could anyone do, anyway?
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 26, 2003, at 5:57:04
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » ramsea, posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 9:45:14
Sorry Lar, you know your posts are just too tempting for me not to respond... :)
> "It is a practise on other similar boards to delete any such posts...
> The deletion is to prevent any sense of rewarding the poster, and to minimize the the impact of the posting itself."But, isn't deleting the post kind of a way of trying to escape the reality of things?
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 26, 2003, at 6:00:51
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Larry Hoover, posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:30
I wish everyone could be this understanding. :) Thank you for being so kind to the borderlines in your life.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » ramsea, posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 9:45:14
So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters? I always thought here was a pretty good place because people here understood what it felt like to want to die.
Posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:13:30
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
> So is the consensus that when someone is having suicidal urges, they shouldn't talk about it here because it might disturb other posters? I always thought here was a pretty good place because people here understood what it felt like to want to die.
<<Hi, Dinah,
I don't agree with that myself. I'd never want to ban someone who has suicidal urges at all, and to whatever tiny extent I could help that person, I would.
The difference for me is how it's worded. Saying, "hey, I feel like killing myself cuz I'm in so much pain, what can I do?" is a lot different than threatening to kill yourself just to get a reaction out of people on the board. Of course, I know it's difficult to figure out the difference sometimes, and impossible, probably, to make any sort of guideline about it.
And *faking* suicide or hospitalization, just to get sympathy, is really sad, too. I think there are so many people here who are sympathetic to people's pain, there's no reason to cry out in a deceitful manner for help. I think in those circumstances, the good of the many has to be considered over the good of the one.
I'm certainly not a therapist or anything close. But I *do* know reacting (positively *or* negatively) to any specific behavior reinforces it. I'd like to concentrate on reinforcing good, honest behavior, and try to ignore the deceitful type of behavior.
I think it's human nature to answer *honest* cries for help rather than deceitful, false ones. We reach out to people who need our help, not to people who hurt us. I know this point of view means I'm not the strongest most loving person in the world, but it's the best I can do right now.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:18:19
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 9:59:11
I don't understand it like that.. But my brain is a little dim at the moment.
I think.. people should be able to post that they feel suicidal, that they'd like to do it etc..
But, I do think posting that someone is dead, when they're not, is wrong...theres a big difference between feeling suicidal, or even threatening suicide, and actually saying that you've done it.
Just my thoughts
Nikki x
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:23:27
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:13:30
Hi Susan,
Re-enforcing bad behaviours is something I talk alot about when I do my sessions with Mental health students and psychs etc..
The services, here in the UK atleast, make me angry in that you ring them up and say "I want to commit suicide", or "I want to self harm" and they tell you to take a pill, go to sleep, come back another day.
But if you ring them up and say "I've taken an overdose" or "I've cut myself really really badly" then you get help straight away.
I think that reaction is wrong.. the people who are asking for help before acting out, or try to control those urges should be given equal treatment to those that ARE acting out. As the system works, people are more inclicned to act out before asking for help, as they know they'll get more help that way.When I was in hospital, I was virtually ignored as I was quiet and not acting out. Yet the loud scary ones, were given constant attention. My need was just as great, but because I didn't want to be seen as a pain, I was treated as if I wasn't ill.
Thats why if someone says to me "Help, I feel like doing x, y or z" I will offer help and support. But if someone says to me "I have done x, y or z" I am less likely to offer help, just advice on where else to go.
Sorry.. gone off on one there.. But just supporting what you said!!
Nikki x
Posted by Susan J on November 26, 2003, at 10:41:29
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Susan J, posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:23:27
Hi, Nikki,
>> But if you ring them up and say "I've taken an overdose" or "I've cut myself really really badly" then you get help straight away.
<<Yeah, I don't know if it's like that here in the States, but I wouldn't be surprised. There's real truth in that saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease."> When I was in hospital, I was virtually ignored as I was quiet and not acting out. Yet the loud scary ones, were given constant attention. My need was just as great, but because I didn't want to be seen as a pain, I was treated as if I wasn't ill.
<<That's not good at all. You are right. We (as a society) tend to reinforce bad behavior a lot, because we want the bad behavior to stop. We don't seem to concentrate enough on trying to *prevent* it....> Sorry.. gone off on one there.. But just supporting what you said!!
<<Nothing to be sorry about. I totally agree with you. It's actually been the story of my life....I'm quiet and don't ask for stuff, and get ignored. There's *got* to be a happy medium somewhere. Speak up with strength and honesty, but not in an angry, intimidating, deceiving, self-aggrandizing way. (hope I used that word properly, not totally sure what it means) :-)Take care,
Susan
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