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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 10:58:26
I found an interesting article on lithium, especially as far as the differences between the carbonate and orotate salts are concerned:
https://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/105/Lithium-Orotate-for-Bipolar-and-Depression/Lithium-Orotate-for-Bipolar-and-Depression.htmlCite:
"You often see it suggested online that lithium-orotate is better absorbed from the intestines than lithium-carbonate but in fact there appears to be little difference in this regard."and:
"The big difference between lithium-orotate and lithium-carbonate is that lithium orotate passes the blood brain barrier more effectively than lithium-carbonate and delivers significantly more lithium to the brain where we want it. Furthermore when lithium is administered in the form of lithium-orotate it is retained in the blood and brain far longer than when delivered by lithium-carbonate ... lithium-orotate maintains far more stable levels of lithium in the system."and:
"In one study 24 hours after injection of lithium-carbonate little lithium was retained in the blood compared to 2/3 of the level of lithium being retained when the same amount of lithium was injected from lithium-orotate and the level of lithium in the brain was three times greater from lithium-orotate compared to lithium-carbonate."and:
"There's been too little scientific research to be absolutely certain but it appears that the salt (either carbonate or orotate) that the lithium is attached to has an effect on either how well the lithium is absorbed from the blood into the cells and how quickly or slowly it is excreted by the kidneys, or put another way how long it is retained in the body."and:
"People used to believe that lithium orotate was better absorbed from the intestines than lithium carbonate but it now appears that both lithium-orotate and carbonate are well absorbed from the intestines, however the lithium-carbonate is not as well absorbed from the blood into the brain where it is needed as lithium-orotate and therefore you have to take a higher dose of lithium from carbonate and maintain a higher level lithium carbonate in the blood to force it into the cells."and:
"It also appears that lithium-orotate is excreted more slowly by the kidneys, this may make it easier to maintain a constant level of lithium in the system however it could also potentially make it more toxic to take too much over time."and:
"There was an experiment conducted in the 1979 {ref?} in which rats were given an equal dosage of elemental lithium from lithium-carbonate and lithium-orotate and the rats given lithium-orotate suffered kidney toxicity. This experiment demonstrated what we in nutritional medicine have been saying for years and that is the format a mineral is delivered in or what it is attached to can have a profound effect on how the mineral behaves in the body and that different forms of lithium salts do indeed behave differently."
(see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/34690 )In summary, whatever the reason, the author seems to have good results from the use of very low doses of lithium in the form of the orotate. He has bipolar I, but needs only 10 mg. However, he does combine it with other treatments.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 11:06:43
In reply to Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 10:58:26
"Lithium orotate, carbonate and chloride: pharmacokinetics, polyuria in rats."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1260219The full text article is available.
In summary, the author found no differences in pharmacokinetics between the different lithium salts.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 11:18:16
In reply to Re: Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 11:06:43
"Rat brain and serum lithium concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26768In summary, the authors found important differences in pharmacokinetics between lithium carbonate and orotate salts. In summary, much more lithium is retained, for longer, after a dose of the orotate in comparison with the carbonate, in both brain and serum. At 24 h after a dose, brain lithium levels were 3 times higher after the orotate than after the carbonate.
-undopaminergic
Posted by rjlockhart37 on February 20, 2020, at 15:27:34
In reply to Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 10:58:26
lithium carbonate is the prescription form of lithium for bipolar, mood stabilizer. Lithium orotate is much weaker than carbonate, its effects are much lower compared to carbonate.
Posted by undopaminergic on February 21, 2020, at 3:17:27
In reply to Re: Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by rjlockhart37 on February 20, 2020, at 15:27:34
> lithium carbonate is the prescription form of lithium for bipolar, mood stabilizer. Lithium orotate is much weaker than carbonate, its effects are much lower compared to carbonate.
>The inverse, actually, but it depends on the dose. Typically, much lower doses are used with the orotate.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 21, 2020, at 11:36:13
In reply to Re: Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by undopaminergic on February 21, 2020, at 3:17:27
I just know that I can take either one and get the same effects at a comparable dosage.
Posted by SLS on February 21, 2020, at 11:52:17
In reply to Re: Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by undopaminergic on February 21, 2020, at 3:17:27
Thanks for all the information, Undopaminergic.
> > lithium carbonate is the prescription form of lithium for bipolar, mood stabilizer. Lithium orotate is much weaker than carbonate, its effects are much lower compared to carbonate.
> >
>
> The inverse, actually, but it depends on the dose. Typically, much lower doses are used with the orotate.
It may be that extremely low dosages of lithium are sufficient to treat or prevent Alzheimer's Dementia. I should buy some lithium orotate for my mother. Her severity level is moderate at this time. She is deteriorating rapidly - faster than average.
- Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on February 21, 2020, at 12:33:42
In reply to Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by undopaminergic on February 20, 2020, at 10:58:26
Cite:
"Dr. Hans Nieper of Germany has learned that lithium-orotate or lithium aspartate penetrate cells more effectively than lithium-carbonate so smaller doses can be used."From:
https://www.lithiumorotate.com/hans-nieper-the-curious-man/Cite:
"To begin with the mineral orotates have the increased ability to enter cells. But, what do they do once theyre in? The beginning of the answer that question is that orotate salts are electrically neutral and relatively stable against dissociation, two properties crucial their ability to participate in intracellular mineral uptake and transport. The ability to dissociation (dissolve into component ions) in a solvent such as water, for example, dissociates into sodium and chloride ions. At physiological pH the orotate salts are much more stable than table salt and will not readily dissociate into free orotic acid plus a mineral ion."and:
"Free orotic acid (OA) itself is known to get into cells by simply leaking (diffusing) through cell membranes, rather than by being actively transported. But diffusion is a relatively inefficient process, which limits the amount of OA that can enter a cell. By contrast, uracila compound almost identical to OA, only minus the carboxylic acid groupis taken up efficiently by a transporter protein that binds to uracil molecules and drags them into the cell. This transporter appears to be specific for uracil or similar molecules which are uncharged, but not for uracils close cousin OA (which is negatively charged at body pH)."and:
"Bind the orotic acid with a mineral, however, and you end up with a stable electrically neutral salt. This property is just what is needed for OA along with its bound mineral to be taken up directly by the uracil transporter. At the same time, neutralizing the charge on OA makes the resulting complex more lipophilic or fat-loving than free OA; as a result, the stable orotate complex would be expected to diffuse more easily through the lipid membranes of cells. Essentially just such a mechanism was proposed by Nieper for enhancing the diffusion of mineral ions across cell membranes. Either wayvia enhanced diffusion or active transportcomplexing a mineral with orotate results in increased uptake of both components of the complex by cells."-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on February 21, 2020, at 12:40:33
In reply to Re: Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on February 21, 2020, at 11:52:17
> Thanks for all the information, Undopaminergic.
>No problem.
> It may be that extremely low dosages of lithium are sufficient to treat or prevent Alzheimer's Dementia. I should buy some lithium orotate for my mother. Her severity level is moderate at this time. She is deteriorating rapidly - faster than average.
>Sorry to hear she's deteriorating -- good luck with the lithium!
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on February 21, 2020, at 12:49:32
In reply to Re: Lithium salts: carbonate vs. orotate, posted by Lamdage22 on February 21, 2020, at 11:36:13
> I just know that I can take either one and get the same effects at a comparable dosage.
>By comparable dosage, do you mean the doses are adjusted to provide the same amount of elemental lithium?
-undopaminergic
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