![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Baseball55 on August 30, 2016, at 19:56:14
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2016, at 14:55:26
Whatever biochemical changes that may be found in mice after vaccinations. The fact remains that on a gross correlation level, there is absolutely no correlation between childhood vaccinations and subsequent development of autism. None. The only peer-reviewed article published that posited such a correlation was not only not replicated, but was found to be based on no real data at all and was repudiated by the publisher subsequently. Is it being a sheep to point this out? Or is it being a sheep to hold on to discredited positions rather than deal with the vast uncertainty surrounding autism and other mental disabilities?
Coming from a 'science' background, I admit that the human data does not support a link between vaccinations and autism.
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> However, there is research in mice suggesting that vaccinations can cause significant increases in inflammatory compounds (such as IL-6). The adjuvant in the vaccine is designed to activate your immune system so that the vaccine will 'take'.
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> Scientists are beginning to appreciate a connection between the immune system and psychiatric disorders. For example depression is routinely associated with elevated IL-6 levels. Many of the genes showing links to schizophrenia and autism are immune related (rather than neurotransmitter related).
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> I react very negatively to annual vaccinations. I experience acute euphoria followed by insomnia and then destabilization. This could correspond to a rise in IL-6 levels (which can persist for weeks - at least in rodent studies).
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> I would imagine that activation of the immune system, paired with some other predisposing genetic factor, could unmask or worsen autism and / or other psychiatric disorders.
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> I would imagine that some individuals have a much stronger immune response to the vaccine, and that this could be genetic. High levels of inflammation in the developing CNS could cause neurotoxicity.
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> So, I do believe that there could be a yet uncovered link - at least that a mechanism exists in theory.
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Posted by SLS on August 30, 2016, at 20:37:44
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by Baseball55 on August 30, 2016, at 19:56:14
Autism might be the result of reduced immune cell activity. Immune cells (I don't remember which ones) are responsible for neural pruning. It is thought that the brain of someone with autism has not been pruned properly, and has too many synapses. Do vaccinations affect the immune system in such a way as to affect neural pruning? Although the empirical data seems definitive that they do not, it is not totally unreasonable that one should look at the immune system as participating in the genesis of autism. That being said, it seems that autism is genetic and is already determined at birth.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 8:33:26
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by Baseball55 on August 30, 2016, at 19:56:14
Hey Baseball,
This issue is obviously very polarizing. However, I personally *never* believe in any scientific study (or meta-analysis for that matter) dogmatically. Also, scientific research is an ongoing study of reality - we don't perform one or two studies and then close the case.
For example, in the 90's SSRIs were not linked to birth defects. Many doctors considered them safe during pregnancy.
Folic acid was considered harmless (now linked to increased colon cancer risk)
How many of us believed (for over a decade) that (hydrogenated) margarine was safer for us that butter, only to find out that it is (in fact) worse?
The arthritis medication Vioxx was FDA approved for years and only later (upon withdrawl from the market) has been linked to some 20,000 - 60000 heart attacks.
Sugar is harmless
Scientific research is never free from bias, and it always has the potential to not capture the entire truth and / or misrepresent reality.
Like I said in my original post, the data (currently) does not support a link between vaccinations and autism. However, I personally don't think that is necessarily the end of the story.
Because the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated is relatively small *and* the rate of autism is fairly low, it is possible that studies have simply not captured a link. There could also be subgroups of cases which are caused by vaccines which are currently too small to detect.
Another thing to consider (which the meta-analysis has not factored in) is that it may not be that vaccines don't cause autism, it could be that the unvaccinated have additional risk factors which predispose them to autism (and hence mask the effect).
For instance, what kind of parent does not vaccinate their child? Think about the personality of such a parent (i.e. suspiciousness, neuroticism, antisocial tendencies) and whether those traits might be in some way linked to offspring with genetically higher rates of autism - hence masking the effect of vaccines on autism.
More time will tell.
The only reason I lean this way is because of my (personal) reaction to seasonal vaccines which no doctor believes.
My doctors don't believe that the annual vaccine could possible worsen my depression (and cause destabilization).
If my doctors don't believe me, why should I believe them?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 8:49:04
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by SLS on August 30, 2016, at 20:37:44
Hi SLS,The apparent increase in rate of autism over the past 30 years argues against the notion that autism is purely genetic. Like mood disorders there are likely epigenetic risk factors that can be activated by environmental triggers.
In the past 5 years there have been a number of studies suggesting that certain environmental factors could increase the risk of autism. I frequent the site (sciencedaily.com) and read all of the latest research articles. Some studies have found links with...
- living in a city
- use of antidepressants
- use of antiepileptic drugs
- too much folic acid / b12
- parents in certain professions (i.e. engineers)
- industrial chemicals and pesticidesIt could also be that combinations of environmental factors are additive as well.
One genetic pathway implicated in autism is WNT which affects cell growth, surivival, pruning etc. Interestingly this molecule is increased by antidepressants and some antiepileptic drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on August 31, 2016, at 18:42:37
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » SLS, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 8:49:04
Every month (at least) there is a new correlation posited for autism. Why vaccinations and not one of the dozen or so other correlations found (like father's age, one I remember reading about)? There's no money for big pharma in suppressing data here, since there are no pharmaceutical treatments for autism.
It is widely believed that autism diagnoses have increased not because of an increase in the incidence of autism, but because of increased diagnoses. My cousin is autistic, with completely typical presentation of low functioning autism - think rain man without the ability to count cards at casinos. As a child, he was simply "mentally retarded." I spent time in a state hospital as a child and a number of the children had, in retrospect, severe, low-functioning autism, but were diagnosed as retarded or schizoid. High-functioning autistic children were diagnosed as having behavioral problems (oppositional disorder) or schizoid personality disorder. Autism wasn't really understood as a unique disorder until fairly recently.
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:34:57
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on August 31, 2016, at 18:42:37
>It is widely believed that autism diagnoses have >increased not because of an increase in the >incidence of autism, but because of increased
>diagnoses.No. This is not 'widely believed'. This is one suggestion (or theory that some groups ascribe to) for why rates of autism have dramatically increased. There is a similar suggestion for why rates of many psychiatric diagnosis have increased (i.e. that we are simply 'better diagnosing' the problem). However, this is not necessarily the 'widely held' viewpoint. It is more palatable to believe that we are simply better able to detect the problem, rather than suggesting that mankind has anything to do with it.
Working in the public education system, many of the my senior educators admit to seeing an increasing rates of behavioral / autistic / sensory issues than had previously existed.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:46:02
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:34:57
It's the same with peanut allergies. The rate of serious peanut allergies **has** significantly increased in the past two decades. The dramatic rise in childhood allergies is **not** the simply a case of 'rising awareness' or 'better diagnosis'. When I was in school, we could bring peanut butter sandwiches to lunch without sending half the class to the hospital.
Its the same with childhood diabetes. The rate of childhood diabetes **has** significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better diagnosing the problem.
It is the same with childhood obesity. The rate of childhood obesity has significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better able to detect the problem (our scales worked just as well 30 years ago as they do now).
Like the above mentioned problems, I doubt that the increase in rates of autism is simply due to better 'diagnostic abilities'.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 31, 2016, at 21:54:13
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:46:02
what i think would be a good plan, if they have not already done it yet, is to psychially record and gather confirmed autism cases linked with the certain vaccine that is suspected for creating it, there's tons of vacinnes, and reserch which are the ones that have been rumored ....
indepth research with confirmed cases results from vaccine. The numbers of confirmed, and not paranoia or propaganda about it, would do a good case
i still don't know the exact vaccines they have claimed to have caused autism
Posted by AlexCanada on September 1, 2016, at 8:26:47
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by Hello321 on August 28, 2016, at 17:21:57
> Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
And how is he being a sheep when he rejects what the crooked big pharma industry has been spoon feeding him his whole life?
Fully vaccinated used to mean just a few vaccinations in the 1980's. Now you need a dozen or so to be ''fully vaccinationed".
People are sicker than ever despite all these extra vaccines all the while drug companies are making record profits.
The only ''debunking'' which occurs is from those who work for the pharma industry and are paid to write those propaganda articles pushing parents to poison their kids.
The rise in illness is directly linked to rise in vaccinations.
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 18:57:11
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:34:57
But over the last several decades, kids with behavioral issues have been "mainstreamed" in the public school system. Years ago, children with mental disabilities weren't in the school system. They were warehoused in state institutions for the insane or "mentally retarded." There were no laws requiring school districts to provide public education for the disabled.
When I was kid, dyslexic kids were just stupid. ADHD kids were discipline problems. Aspergers kids were just weirdos.
I was at a dinner party not too long ago and a woman said that the diagnosis of ADHD was just pathologizing natural rambunctiousness to sell drugs. After all, she asked, what did they do to such kids before there was ritalin and adderall? I replied, before that, they used corporal punishment.
Maybe you are not old enough to remember this, but I remember it very well. My first grade teacher made stupid kids wear "dunce caps." Kids who were disobedient were hit with rulers and worse. I recall being hit in second grade for eating a jelly bean that was meant for recess.
Mental illness in kids wasn't on anyone's radar. There were good kids, bad kids, obedient kids, disobedient kids, smart kids, stupid kids and mental retards. And that was about it.> Working in the public education system, many of the my senior educators admit to seeing an increasing rates of behavioral / autistic / sensory issues than had previously existed.
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Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:20:19
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:46:02
But allergic reactions, obesity and diabetes are objective, measurable conditions. Mental health diagnoses are diagnosed based solely on symptoms, the definition and understanding of which have changed greatly over the years.
I would imagine that childhood schizophrenia diagnoses have declined over the last several decades since, years ago, all intractable mental health problems in kids were labeled schizophrenia. I myself spent two years in a state hospital on thorazine and was diagnosed as schizophrenic, though in fact I was just depressed and lost due to a childhood of physical abuse.Of course, when I was a kid, physical abuse wasn't abuse - it was discipline. Sexual abuse didn't exist because nobody talked about it. Rates of child abuse have increased dramatically over the last several decades, not because more children are abused, but because social mores have changed dramatically. Once I saw the boy next door lying in his yard while his father kicked him over and over. Nobody called the police or child protective services. The father was just disciplining a bad kid. It was a parent's prerogative.
Also, a question. Have diagnoses of childhood type 1 diabetes increased, or of type 2 (which would be related to higher obesity rates)?
As far as allergies go, allergy and asthma rates are way up over the years and one theory is that children have less exposure to potential allergens as a result of better hygiene. A recent study found, for example, that allergies and asthma rare in Amish children, who are exposed to lots of dirt, dust, fecal matter, etc. on farms.
> It's the same with peanut allergies. The rate of serious peanut allergies **has** significantly increased in the past two decades. The dramatic rise in childhood allergies is **not** the simply a case of 'rising awareness' or 'better diagnosis'. When I was in school, we could bring peanut butter sandwiches to lunch without sending half the class to the hospital.
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> Its the same with childhood diabetes. The rate of childhood diabetes **has** significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better diagnosing the problem.
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> It is the same with childhood obesity. The rate of childhood obesity has significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better able to detect the problem (our scales worked just as well 30 years ago as they do now).
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> Like the above mentioned problems, I doubt that the increase in rates of autism is simply due to better 'diagnostic abilities'.
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Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:21:42
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by rjlockhart37 on August 31, 2016, at 21:54:13
Of course it's been done. And no correlations has been found
> what i think would be a good plan, if they have not already done it yet, is to psychially record and gather confirmed autism cases linked with the certain vaccine that is suspected for creating it, there's tons of vacinnes, and reserch which are the ones that have been rumored ....
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> indepth research with confirmed cases results from vaccine. The numbers of confirmed, and not paranoia or propaganda about it, would do a good case
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> i still don't know the exact vaccines they have claimed to have caused autism
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Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:29:12
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 18:57:11
Baseball, you need to do your research on the history of the education system in North America.
Children with disabilities were not 'warehoused' in the 90's.
I'm just talking about the changes that have occurred in the last 25 years.
You can say it's 'all the same' as its ever been, but that's ignoring the realities.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:45:42
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:29:12
When I was in school in the 80's and 90's, there were no 'dunce caps', no physical punishment, no teachers calling you names. There were no warehouses for kids with disabilities either. The school consisted of a few kids on Ritalin and small special education department. I know this because I talk to dozens of veteran teachers at the dozens of schools that I work at (I am a substitute teacher). Perhaps one or two kids (in the entire school) had autism.
Also, performance on key standardized tests (math / science) was significantly higher than today (despite your argument of a significant lack of 'proper diagnosis').
In the 80's and 90's we could eat peanut butter galore (every 2nd child brought a peanut butter sandwich to school for lunch).
Now, I walk into classrooms where multiple students *in each class* have autism, ADHD and are on multiple medications (despite a significant lack of clinical trial data for many of these meds in children).
Children are more likely to be overweight, have diabetes, high blood pressure, ADHD, depression, anxiety disorder, autism, peanut allergies (you name it).
Our food is less nutritious, children are exposed to significantly more industrial chemicals in the womb and in the environment after birth. They are getting less exercise, less social contact, less sunlight.
Why is it so unconceivable to you that our children's declining health is MAN MADE?
Do you deny global warming as well?
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:46:05
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » Hello321, posted by AlexCanada on September 1, 2016, at 8:26:47
> > Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
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> And how is he being a sheep when he rejects what the crooked big pharma industry has been spoon feeding him his whole life?Well I resent this deeply. Big pharma has nothing to gain by "hiding" the "facts" about vaccination and autism. Vaccinations just aren't that profitable. Most are generic.
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> Fully vaccinated used to mean just a few vaccinations in the 1980's. Now you need a dozen or so to be ''fully vaccination".
Things haven't changed much since the 80s. My grandkids get pretty much the same vaccinations my kids got in the 80s. Very few new vaccines have cropped up since then. Since the 1960s though...> People are sicker than ever despite all these extra vaccines all the while drug companies are making record profits.
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Really? When I was a kid, the only vaccination we got was for polio, which has been pretty much wiped out in developed countries due to vaccines. And I should mention that nobody makes money on polio vaccines, since Salk refused to patent the vaccine, which he saw as a public good. When I was a child, everyone got measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, scarlet fever. Many children died from these. My father's heart was damaged from scarlet fever and he died in his fifties as a result. How many kids are born with birth defects today as a result of exposure to rubella? When was the last time you heard of a child dying from measles or mumps?
The meningitis vaccine, given to adolescents, has pretty much ended epidemics of meningitis in college dormitories that routinely killed about a quarter to a half of all those infected. Hepatitis A and B have been pretty much wiped out due to vaccinations. Meningitis and hepatitis vaccines, by the way, are not part of the regular vaccination schedule for children, but pediatricians encourage teenagers to get them.So where's your evidence for "people are sicker than ever.."? When I was young, kids were sick all the time with measles, mumps, chicken pox, the flu. My children and nieces and nephews and their friends were rarely sick as kids.
And vaccines are not the source of big profits for big pharma. Vaccines are a low margin product. There are plenty of problems with big pharma, but vaccines are pushed by public health officials, not drug companies.
So who's the sheep? I'm not the one bleating about unsubstantiated conspiracies by drug companies.
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:58:03
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » Hello321, posted by AlexCanada on September 1, 2016, at 8:26:47
I will add one more thought. It's a little rich that the same people who object to Lou's posts and expend time and energy online looking for and talking about drugs to treat psychiatric conditions are so quick to pull facts out of thin air to "prove" that vaccines - probably the pharmaceutical industries one unmitigated success story - are a big conspiracy to make children ill.
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 20:28:40
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:29:12
> Baseball, you need to do your research on the history of the education system in North America.
Well my history of the education system goes back a lot further than the 80s or 90s, when my children were in school. I was in elementary school in the 1960s. My children were in school in the 1990s and my grandchildren are in school today. I don't see much difference between my children's experience and their children's experience. In the 1990s, peanut butter was pretty much outlawed in the schools my children attended. I'd like to see some data here instead of anecdotes from teachers. I have anecdotes too and they are different from yours.
It is also likely the case that increased awareness of various mental health and intellectual disability disorders has made parents more aggressive in demanding testing and accommodation for their children.
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I don't think I said that at all. But I challenge you to provide some evidence that your "realities" are real. And in any case, when the problems you note are well-documented (obesity and its attendant problems of HTN, diabetes, etc), the problem is not big pharma but big food.What started as a question about vaccines and autism has morphed so much that I no longer know what the issues here are.
And I greatly dislike your insulting tone with me. I am not stupid and I am not a shill for big pharma. And not only do I believe in climate change, but I am an expert in environmental economics and frequently do public speaking on the topic. What are your credentials, since you know so much?
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Posted by Tabitha on September 2, 2016, at 0:55:05
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:58:03
> I will add one more thought. It's a little rich that the same people who object to Lou's posts and expend time and energy online looking for and talking about drugs to treat psychiatric conditions are so quick to pull facts out of thin air to "prove" that vaccines - probably the pharmaceutical industries one unmitigated success story - are a big conspiracy to make children ill.
Right? It's sad to see so much distrust of medical science on a medication discussion board. How does one rationalize using Rx drugs at all when believing that trusting scientific consensus on public health issues makes you a "sheep"?
Posted by Baseball55 on September 2, 2016, at 6:36:52
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:45:42
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> Also, performance on key standardized tests (math / science) was significantly higher than today (despite your argument of a significant lack of 'proper diagnosis').According to the national assessment of educational progress, the percentage of 4th and 8th graders ranked as proficient in math has more than doubled since 1990. Just one little factoid in the history of us education you've got wrong.
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> In the 80's and 90's we could eat peanut butter galore (every 2nd child brought a peanut butter sandwich to school for lunch).Data? My children,in the 1990s, were not allowed to bring nuts of any sort to school. But then, what do I know about education history compared to an expert such as yourself?
> Now, I walk into classrooms where multiple students *in each class* have autism, ADHD and are on multiple medications (despite a significant lack of clinical trial data for many of these meds in children).
Data? There's no question that diagnoses of ADHD and autism have skyrocketed since 1990. But so what? What does this prove? Vaccination rates haven't risen over this period. Parents are much more aggressive in claiming disability status and demanding accommodation for their children than they used to be while stigma about such status has lifted significantly. Surely this is a factor driving the data. A uvery recently published book, reviewed just last week in the NYTimes, argues that ADHD is over diagnosed, in part driven by drug companies, in part by stressed out pediatricians and school personnel who find it easier to smack a label and drug a child than to investigate problems more deeply.
Maybe over diagnosis is part of the problem. We don't know. Experts in the field certainly consider this a possibility. I'm not just pulling the idea out of a hat.
In fact, consider the brief history of childhood bipolar disorder, a diagnosis that didn't exist until Joseph Biederman, funded by the manufacturer of Risperdal, practically invented it.
> Children are more likely to be overweight, have diabetes, high blood pressure, ADHD, depression, anxiety disorder, autism, peanut allergies (you name it).
> Our food is less nutritious, children are exposed to significantly more industrial chemicals in the womb and in the environment after birth. They are getting less exercise, less social contact, less sunlight.
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> Why is it so unconceivable to you that our children's declining health is MAN MADE?
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Did I say this'? Child health is always a bellwether of social and economic health. Lack of exercise, poor nutrition are undoubtedly problems especially for poor urban children who live in so-called food deserts and have no safe outdoor places to play. These children are also exposed to near daily trauma from exposure to crime and poverty and no doubt experience high levels of stress. Did you know that 38 percent of black children are tracked into special Ed, seeing as you're an expert in education history?
This number reflects not an epidemic of mental disorders but a racially driven tendency to label and drug children rather than to try and alter the lousy circumstances of their lives.
> Do you deny global warming as well?
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Posted by linkadge on September 2, 2016, at 10:50:59
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:46:05
I'm not saying that the drug companies have 'covered it up' **nor** am I saying that the risk : reward ratio for vaccines is unacceptable.
I'm simply saying that more research is needed (in my mind) to truly determine the risks associated with vaccines.
That doesn't mean that there isn't incentive (among other groups - i.e. government) to skew the research data.
Death from major 'epidemic' diseases may be down, but that doesn't suggest that we are healthier.
Children are less healthy than they were 20-30 year ago. It's pretty obvious.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 2, 2016, at 11:11:36
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:58:03
>I will add one more thought. It's a little rich >that the same people who object to Lou's posts >and expend time and energy online looking for and >talking about drugs to treat psychiatric >conditions are so quick to pull facts out of thin >air to "prove" that vaccines - probably the >pharmaceutical industries one unmitigated success >story - are a big conspiracy to make children ill.
I hope that is not referring to myself.
First off, I rarely respond to Lou (aside from my one liner responses).
Second, medications (and vaccines) have side effects and benefits. I never said that they didn't. I simply was arguing against the notion that 'vaccines don't cause autism' is 'case closed' as some would have you believe.
Third, if you haven't yet realized, very few issues in 'true science' are ever 'case closed'. In fact, when a group of scientists suggest that it is 'case closed', I get a little concerned.
Fourth, you are lumping me into a group in which I don't belong. When did I prove (or suggest to prove) that vaccines 'cause autism'? I simply said that the issue may not be as cut and dry (case closed) as some would like you to believe.
Fifth, there are no 'unmitigated success stories'. Did you know that individuals can have severe idiosyncratic reactions to the vaccines? Vaccines can cause paralysis as well as seizures (in a very small number of those who are vaccinated). There is a host of pubmed.com related coverage of this, if you are interested in reading further...
"The temporal association between the isolation of these strains and the GBS, TM and FP suggested that the Sabin vaccine-derived poliovirus strains could also rarely trigger the diseases."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9292105
Sixth, vaccines makers are protected against lawsuits by US law, but there is also compensation available for those who do have proven cases of adverse reactions to the vaccine. As mentioned above, seizures can occur and are listed as possible (rare) side effects of vaccines. One mechanism could be evevation of pro-inflammatory substances like IL-6, which are also known to be proconvulsant. So, your notion of 'unmitigated' is not true. There are a small group of individuals who (had we known in hindsight) should not have been vaccinated. However, I don't assert that there *is* a conspiracy, although I am also not ruling out the possibility.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 2, 2016, at 11:18:50
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 20:28:40
Dude, you're simply wrong about peanut allergies.
"The prevalence of peanut allergy among children in the United States has risen more than threefold, to 1.4 percent in 2010 from 0.4 percent in 1997, according to a study by food allergists at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City"
http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20100514/peanut-allergies-in-kids-on-the-rise
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 2, 2016, at 11:47:53
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » linkadge, posted by Baseball55 on September 2, 2016, at 6:36:52
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3682659.stm
"An allergy expert says almost every school in the country now has at least one pupil with a nut allergy - compared with a generation ago when this would have been a rarity."
"The number of children developing nut allergies has risen sharply - leaving schools with tough decisions about protecting pupils from potentially fatal exposure to food such as peanuts, walnuts, almonds and Brazil nuts."
"The Anaphylaxis Campaign, which aims to help people with allergies, says there are studies suggesting a threefold increase in the numbers of people with nut allergies since the mid-1990s. "
"But he says that research in Britain, the US and Canada has clearly demonstrated a steep increase since the mid-1990s. "
http://www.cbc.ca/news/peanut-bans-a-sticky-issue-1.729555
"400,000 U.S. kids allergic to peanuts
Regardless of the group's position, a growing number of schools have implemented bans. A recent survey of 1,174 U.S. districts by the Virginia-based School Nutrition Association found that 18 per cent of schools had peanut bans in 2007, a 50 per cent increase from two years earlier.
The increase in peanut bans corresponds to an increase in students diagnosed with peanut allergies. Between 1997 and 2002, the prevalence of peanut allergies in children under age five doubled, said Dr. Hugh A. Sampson, president of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology.
Today, there are 400,000 school-age children in the U.S. with peanut allergies."
As far as mathematics performance, I am referring to Canadian data. I don't know the methodology of the US data (nor how performance across all age groups - i.e. not just two grades compares to a decade or more ago).
http://www.macleans.ca/society/life/canadian-students-have-more-math-class-lower-test-scores/
"Former deputy prime minister John Manley said the results, which show that the math scores of Canadian 15-year-olds have dropped 14 points in the past decade, were on the scale of a national emergency.
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on September 2, 2016, at 19:20:03
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on September 2, 2016, at 11:47:53
Couple of points, then I'll shut up.
1. To say that there are rare allergic reactions to vaccines does not mean they are not a rousing success. There are people allergic to penicillin, yet penicillin practically wiped out deaths from numerous diseases.
2. To say that science never says "case closed" is a bit disingenuous. Of course, nothing can be proven finally and forever more. But the data against vaccine->autism is such that nobody is investigating it any more. And why should they? So many actual correlations with autism have since been found (see of them, it seems, pretty weird, like father's age), there are more promising avenues to pursue.
3. What's the deal with nut allergies? So they've increased. So what? Not exactly a world-shattering event. There seems to be a lot of studies indicating that children need to be exposed very early to allergens to avoid allergies. As I said, nuts have been all but banned in the US schools since my children were young (1990s). Maybe the fear of nut allergies has led parents to keep their children from being exposed to nuts -> more nut allergies. Who knows?
4. Sorry about Canada's poor math performance. The NEAP in the US administers an annual test to 4th and 8th graders. Math scores have improved quite significantly.
5. I don't mean to count you among the followers of Lou. I know you routinely dispute him. But the vaccine/autism conspiracy seems very much a piece with Lou's rants (Oh, no! Now Lou will enter this thread. Time to but it to bed!)
6. I am female.
Posted by linkadge on September 3, 2016, at 20:30:34
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » linkadge, posted by baseball55 on September 2, 2016, at 19:20:03
>1. To say that there are rare allergic reactions >to vaccines does not mean they are not a rousing >success. There are people allergic to >penicillin, yet penicillin practically wiped out >deaths from numerous diseases.
The fact that vaccinations are used on such a widespread basis means that even a 0.01% rate of serious reactions can result in a large number of injuries. I am supposing that if your child suffered permanent paralysis because of a 'routine vaccination' you wouldn't be too pleased with the conclusion that 'sorry, we're no longer studying the issue'.
>But the data against vaccine->autism is such >that nobody is investigating it any more.
Firstly, I don't know if that is the case. Secondly, scientists only decided to study it in response to the original (admittedly flawed) study suggesting a link. Again, my original stance was that no, the research currently does not support a link. However, I have personally read enough research to see a *possible* link between the adjuvant (not the mercury) and negative neurological and psychiatric events.
>And why should they? So many actual correlations >with autism have since been found (see of them, >it seems, pretty weird, like father's age),I agree. I read and consider many of these studies. A recent one suggests that mothers enduring significant prenatal stress (who also possessed certain genetic factors) had children with more difficult to manage autism.
This is along the lines with my point. Studies that are only looking for a binary outcome (i.e. autism or no autism) may be missing how vaccines may or may not influence disease severity.
>3. What's the deal with nut allergies? So >they've increased. So what? Not exactly a world-shattering event.Every medical trend has the potential to be part of a larger picture. For all we know nut allergies could end up having a common link with autism. Sounds crazy, but until we know the true cause I wouldn't rule anything out. Perhaps some immune system altering chemical in the environment activates autism (in individuals with certain genetic predispositions) and food allergies (in another group). My main point was that just like peanut allergies have increased, so too (I personally believe) has the actual incidence of autism. If the rise in peanut allergies is due to a man made change in the food or environment, then its not inconceivable that the rise in autism is too. The temporal association between the increased incidence of the two disorders warrants consideration.
Many of the risk factors need to be studied (and studied again). For instance, there is at least one positive and one negative association between antidepressant use in pregnancy and autism. So, clearly we need more studies.
I disagree with the notion that science should ever close the case. If we did that, the atom would be the smallest unit of matter, and gravity would be a force acting at a distance (rather than the bending of spacetime).
>that children need to be exposed very early to >allergens to avoid allergies. As I said, nuts have been all but banned in the US schools since my children were young (1990s).
That is strange. I know Canada and (apparently) the UK did not act (on a widespread basis) till late 90's / early 2000's. My point was that I was happily eating PB sandwiches regularly without the school going into lockdown. My point was that something has changed. Yes, I agree with you that the anti-nut response, is probably counterproductive. But then again, we live in a society where the needs of the few supersede the needs of the many - yes nuts are a need :)
>4. Sorry about Canada's poor math performance. >The NEAP in the US administers an annual test to >4th and 8th graders. Math scores have improved >quite significantly.Ok, there are many grades in between :) However, I am not familiar with mathematics trends (and test methodology in the US.)
>5. I don't mean to count you among the followers >of Lou. I know you routinely dispute him. But >the vaccine/autism conspiracy seems very much a >piece with Lou's rants
Again, I never said it was a conspiracy not did I say that vaccines cause autism. Please don't try to paint me as a 'tinfoil hat' wearer. I simply said that I would like to see more research done (as is being done b.t.w.) on the impact of vaccines on a variety of neurological events. (Europe has been much more open minded than the US when it comes to such issues. I know that there are ongoing studies, for instance, of a link between the swine flu vaccines and a dramatic rise in juvenile narcolepsy around that temporal timeframe). Most people who get very heated about the debate don't actually spend much time on pubmed.com
Again, there are two clear camps (1. vaccines don't cause autism - case closed and 2. vaccines do cause autism). I assume you are part of camp #1. I would say that I am in neither camp. I want more research.
I could bring up GMO, but I'd be saying the same thing. I am not suggesting that GMO foods DO cause autism (or any other disease) however, I see a *potential* that warrants more study (IMO).
The problem is (these days) is that we are supposed to believe science without question. If you show any skepticism towards 'science' you are a wacko.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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