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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
Hi!
I was wondering here, why SSRI's don't work for such a large portion of people, is it because they are unable to rise serotonin levels among
these individuals or is it because the individuals are not low in serotonin in the first place?
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 15, 2016, at 13:30:48
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
We are not all wired the same way.
I have found SSRI to be totally unpredictable. One med blasts away suicide thoughts from the first pill (Sertraline), the other one makes me want to kill myself badly after the second pill (Brintellix).
Side note: Sertraline gave me horrible akathisia.
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 15, 2016, at 13:46:46
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 15, 2016, at 13:30:48
for whatever reason, ssri drugs became the standard pills for depression. Thing is...they do work, if you need some calming, if you have obsessive thoughts, if you're agitated, etc.
If you get tired, having trouble concentrating, eat too much, sleep too much, etc...not so much.
Depression covers a lot of ground...the diagnosis isn't very specific. In fact...good docs focus more on symptoms than on diagnosis, generally. If you read the older psychiatric literature, that's how most shrinks did things.
Psych drugs generally don't fix imbalances or boost low neurotransmitters. The idea is to change brain chemistry to make symptoms more manageable and (one hopes) improve functioning.
For instance...I take Wellbutrin. It lightly inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine and dopamine. Its been great for me, because its mechanism of action gave me the "boost" I needed to get through The Blues. Did it restore my brain to pre-depressive harmony? No. If/when I go off wellbutrin, my brain will react to a missing chemical. As I write this, my brain is probably responding to the presence of wellbutrin by some sort of mechanism. Its not a cure, its not even an "anti-depressant" in the sense that Penicillin is an anti-biotic. Its a mildly stimulating mood elevator that "works" in people with some forms of sadness (depression) and isn't well tolerated by some others with the same general diagnosis.
I'm done now, lol. :-)
Posted by SLS on January 15, 2016, at 15:37:15
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 15, 2016, at 13:30:48
> We are not all wired the same way.
>
> I have found SSRI to be totally unpredictable. One med blasts away suicide thoughts from the first pill (Sertraline), the other one makes me want to kill myself badly after the second pill (Brintellix).
>
> Side note: Sertraline gave me horrible akathisia.Sertraline (Zoloft) is the worst SSRI drug with respect to akathisia. This is because it blocks sigma-1 receptors. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) does just the opposite. In fact, a few doctors have used fluvoxamine to treat antipsychotic induced akathisia.
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 15, 2016, at 18:19:18
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by SLS on January 15, 2016, at 15:37:15
MAOIs are the most well known to be effective, SSRI's it depends but maybe they made them less potent, because they where trying to remove the side effects that TCA's had....... prozac at 80mg and it does....yes keep me dropping into a depressed state, when i first started prozac i noticed a difference more just feeling content, and everything is less worrysome, relief from some anxiety, but it's not really "a big diffrence" they sometimes use prozac for modeerate depression not severe
the new ones that are coming out are going to soon place SSRI's into a previous generation catagory
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 19, 2016, at 16:55:08
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
> Hi!
>
> I was wondering here, why SSRI's don't work for such a large portion of people, is it because they are unable to rise serotonin levels among
> these individuals or is it because the individuals are not low in serotonin in the first place?Friends,
Be not deceived. The poster writes what is called a false dilemma. He/she writes [...is it because X or because Y...]. This could mislead you to think that those are the only two choices, but there could be more and there are.
This type of fallacious reasoning allowed to be seen as being supportive here could lead those ignorant of the fallacies of relevance to their deaths. And time after time, I see the unwary here swallow what is allowed to be seen here as supportive. My friends, the duped mind is the devil's playground.
But be not deceived. There is a continual body of knowledge unfolding to unveil the trickery that the drug companies have used to addict millions of people to their drugs and all the while I see them here hem getting life-ruining conditions and death. Thousands of people are killed by these drugs each month, many of them children whose parents drugged them in collaboration with a psychiatrist. Let us see the reasons why they don't work and what they do to the human condition....
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 19, 2016, at 17:16:17
In reply to Lou's warning-phalzdeelehmmah » swim, posted by Lou Pilder on January 19, 2016, at 16:55:08
> > Hi!
> >
> > I was wondering here, why SSRI's don't work for such a large portion of people, is it because they are unable to rise serotonin levels among
> > these individuals or is it because the individuals are not low in serotonin in the first place?
>
> Friends,
> Be not deceived. The poster writes what is called a false dilemma. He/she writes [...is it because X or because Y...]. This could mislead you to think that those are the only two choices, but there could be more and there are.
> This type of fallacious reasoning allowed to be seen as being supportive here could lead those ignorant of the fallacies of relevance to their deaths. And time after time, I see the unwary here swallow what is allowed to be seen here as supportive. My friends, the duped mind is the devil's playground.
> But be not deceived. There is a continual body of knowledge unfolding to unveil the trickery that the drug companies have used to addict millions of people to their drugs and all the while I see them here hem getting life-ruining conditions and death. Thousands of people are killed by these drugs each month, many of them children whose parents drugged them in collaboration with a psychiatrist. Let us see the reasons why they don't work and what they do to the human condition....
> LouFriends,
Be not deceived. The poster writes what could be thought,[...raising serotonin levels make SSRIs work...].
This is called the fallacy of false cause and many there go after the false conclusion. There is a continual body of scientific evidence to show that depression is not caused by low serotonin and one does not have a chemical imbalance as a cause. And by swallowing the false cause "chemical imbalance " theory, you could be misled by the drug companies that still promulgate such. It is illegal in some countries for drug companies to promote the "chemical imbalance" theory in their advertising.
Many here will join this discussion and say that they do not know what causes depression. I do know. And I know what these drugs are and where they originated and what and how they could ruin your life and your child's life if you are drugging your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist. Take heed that no man deceive you. I am prevented from posting here what could save your life and deliver you from the slavery of addiction and prevent life-ruining conditions due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr. Hsiung. But you can read fallacious causes and be misled to think that you have a chemical imbalance and that could be the beginning of sorrows.
Lou
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 19:20:20
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
> Hi!
>
> I was wondering here, why SSRI's don't work for such a large portion of people, is it because they are unable to rise serotonin levels among
> these individuals or is it because the individuals are not low in serotonin in the first place?It is more likely to be the latter.
In fact, the brain should not be looked at as being a bag of chemicals. It is more like a communication network. The circuitry is important.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 19:25:42
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
Hi Swim.
If you feel that your thread has been hijacked, I encourage you to avoid replying to the offender. Your posting name is probably new here. Offenders prey upon people who are not already familiar with their behaviors.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 19:31:58
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
By the way, are you a fellow sufferer?
If so, may I ask what your illness is and how successful you have been with treatment?
I have not been terribly successful. My case is that of bipolar disorder, depressive type with drug-induced mania. I never become manic spontaneously. I become manic only in association with antidepressants. Otherwise, I am depressed every day.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 19:34:53
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
Read this first:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20151225/msgs/1085577.html
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 19, 2016, at 19:52:54
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many? » swim, posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 19:25:42
> Hi Swim.
>
> If you feel that your thread has been hijacked, I encourage you to avoid replying to the offender. Your posting name is probably new here. Offenders prey upon people who are not already familiar with their behaviors.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Friends,
Be not deceived. I could be the subject person of Scott here. And those statements could decrease the respect , regard and confidence in which I am held and induce hostile and disagreeable opinions and feelings toward me.
Scott's statement ,[...offenders prey upon people...] is allowed by Mr. Hsiung which could be connected as me being Scott's subject person that could arouse hatred toward me here as some type of evil person preying on someone. This is how racial hatred is created and developed in a community as the libel goes un repudiated by Mr. Hsiung and any deputy of record. The tragic results could be your death by being swayed to ignore me and be deceived by the fallacies being allowed to be seen as supportive here.
What Scott is doing is using the fallacy of Ad Hominem, which means against the man. The fallacy is used to slander another's character that could influence ignorant people to buy into the hate and reject the message by rejecting the messenger. This being allowed by Mr. Hsiung turns my stomach. Scott's statement that there is an offender, when no offense is there, is contemptuous for to respond to what another posted is not hijacking nor is it an offense.
Lou
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 20:48:34
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by Christ_empowered on January 15, 2016, at 13:46:46
> for whatever reason, ssri drugs became the standard pills for depression.
Part of the reason is that SSRIs are not as toxic as TCAs in overdose. Also, they were touted as having virtually no side effects when they first came out, particularly anticholinergic effects. After Prozac made the cover of Newsweek magazine, it was considered to be a miracle cure. Doctors have been pretty stubborn about returning to TCAs, even when several other classes of ADs have failed. I would rather deal with the dry mouth of desipramine than the anorgasmia and amotivation associated with SSRIs. Additionally, I find that the anti-cholinergic/pro-noradrenergic side effects of desipramine and nortriptyline diminish over time. I don't like SSRIs.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 20:52:39
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 15, 2016, at 18:19:18
> the new ones that are coming out are going to soon place SSRI's into a previous generation catagory
I hope you're right.
Are there any drugs or category of drugs in particular that you had in mind?
- Scott
Posted by john locke on January 21, 2016, at 13:21:40
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many? » swim, posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 19:31:58
> By the way, are you a fellow sufferer?
>
> If so, may I ask what your illness is and how successful you have been with treatment?
>
> I have not been terribly successful. My case is that of bipolar disorder, depressive type with drug-induced mania. I never become manic spontaneously. I become manic only in association with antidepressants. Otherwise, I am depressed every day.
>
>
> - ScottWould you mind explaining this further, Scott? I don't know much at all about bipolar disorder, so if someone had asked me I would have thought that someone who is depressed every day does not have it and has unipolar depression instead.
Best,
John
Posted by SLS on January 21, 2016, at 16:21:36
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by john locke on January 21, 2016, at 13:21:40
> > By the way, are you a fellow sufferer?
> >
> > If so, may I ask what your illness is and how successful you have been with treatment?
> >
> > I have not been terribly successful. My case is that of bipolar disorder, depressive type with drug-induced mania. I never become manic spontaneously. I become manic only in association with antidepressants. Otherwise, I am depressed every day.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Would you mind explaining this further, Scott? I don't know much at all about bipolar disorder, so if someone had asked me I would have thought that someone who is depressed every day does not have it and has unipolar depression instead.
> Best,
> JohnI am grateful that the DSM V has worked in some of the principles developed by Hagop Askikal. The biological substrate for bipolar mood illness includes presentations that include people who are depressed all the time and manic all the time. My particular type is one of being depressed every day except for a handful of severe manic episodes triggered by antidepressants. DSM V uses "qualifiers" rather than rigid definitions. So, bipolar disorder can take on presentations that previously had not been categorized. Actually, Emil Kraepelin's original concept of "manic depression" is in some ways better to describe mood illness. It does not imply that any one person necessarily experience both mood extremes. It is not unlike other biological illnesses that can present with different symptoms in different people. So, yes, bipolar disorder includes presentations of pure depression and pure mania. Importantly, the biologies of BD and MDD are clearly different according to studies of genetics and other biomarkers.
- Scott
Posted by babbler20 on February 8, 2016, at 15:26:19
In reply to why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by swim on January 15, 2016, at 12:23:32
Hi, the theory that antidepressants improve depression by raising serotonin was actually disproven a long time ago and now doctors don't know if or how they work. There is actually a lot of evidence that supports the theory that any real benefit of antidepressants is actually a placebo effect. The problem is that drug companies only publish the studies that show a benefit and don't publish the studies that show these drugs don't actually help anyone.
Posted by elanor roosevelt on February 22, 2016, at 17:02:25
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many? » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on January 19, 2016, at 20:48:34
I think the medical world, the media and popular culture have distorted our expectations.
When I first took ssri's I was lead to believe that I could be cured.
Posted by herpills on March 1, 2016, at 15:22:55
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by elanor roosevelt on February 22, 2016, at 17:02:25
> I think the medical world, the media and popular culture have distorted our expectations.
> When I first took ssri's I was lead to believe that I could be cured.I feel it's the drug companies themselves (and the doctors who prescribe them) that can lead to this misunderstanding. The print/internet/TV ads are ridiculous, showing a woman who twirls around and is suddenly cured of her depression with her Abilify/Pristiq combo..
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 1, 2016, at 15:58:42
In reply to Re: why SSRI's don't work for so many?, posted by herpills on March 1, 2016, at 15:22:55
> > I think the medical world, the media and popular culture have distorted our expectations.
> > When I first took ssri's I was lead to believe that I could be cured.
>
> I feel it's the drug companies themselves (and the doctors who prescribe them) that can lead to this misunderstanding. The print/internet/TV ads are ridiculous, showing a woman who twirls around and is suddenly cured of her depression with her Abilify/Pristiq combo..
>
> hp,
Psychiatric drug advertising is the greatest successful false advertising campaign of all time. Millions have been killed and millions more will be killed and millions of others will have addiction and life-ruining conditions.
But also notice in those commercials that there is a dog, usually a golden retriever or similar breed. And there is music over the voice of the commentator which I think is criminal deception.
This is how psychiatrists are allowed to thrive. The people see the commercials and they say to ask your doctor. So they head for the dance to the psychiatrist, get the script, another victim for life. And if the drug doesn't work, the psychiatrist could say that the drug was not for them but there is another drug for them. Then the cycle resumes to the pharmacy, and you see the people here that are on the train to death that can't get off. Oh, the horrors of psychiatry. They got their ticket on the TV
Lou
>
>
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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