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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
Been ages since I visited or posted here, but I thought the Medscape article "Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?" might be of interest to some here. I believe you need a id and pw (registration is free) to access it.
Posted by linkadge on May 1, 2015, at 17:56:31
In reply to 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
Having tried to keep up to date on every major discovery in psychiatric research, I can say its not really a myth. Its more likely a partial truth.
Posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2015, at 20:13:56
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by linkadge on May 1, 2015, at 17:56:31
Got the article also and was rather discouraging to me. So now what. Did you read the comments at the end of article as doctors and other health care workers kind of insinuated a placebo effect. P
Posted by hello123 on May 2, 2015, at 15:47:52
In reply to 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
ive been reading a bit from a book called "Shrinks, The Untold Story of Psychiatry. and it mentioned some very early theories on what caused Mental Illnesses and how they were treated. Benjamin Rush, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence was actuly a Psychiatrist, and believed Mental Illnesses were caused by disruptions in blood circulation. and to treat this, he strapped patients to a chair that had w bottom axle that coukd be rotated and spun them around until their symtoms were covered up by dizziness, disorientation and vomiting.
Rush also believed Mental Illness was caused by Sensory Overload. to treat this he strapped patients to a chair and lowered a box resembling a birdhouse over their head. this chair was called a "Tranquilizing Chair". But his preferred treatment method of treatment was using "Bikious Pills", filled with Calomel and Jalap, which were powerful Laxatives made from poisonous Mercury. he believed opening the bowels expelled any deleterious substances causing Mental Illness.
i wonder if/when we will look at todays treatments the same way we now view Benjamin Rush's treatments.
Posted by hello123 on May 2, 2015, at 16:17:29
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by hello123 on May 2, 2015, at 15:47:52
and in the early 1900's. Schizophrenia was the tesult of "anxiety reactions"- unsuccessful adjustment to lifes stresses- and only occured in individuals who failed to have satisfying sexual experiences
Posted by Linkadge on May 2, 2015, at 16:38:25
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by hello123 on May 2, 2015, at 16:17:29
If you don't want the treatment, don't take it.
I'm all for more options.
Linkadge
Posted by hello123 on May 2, 2015, at 17:55:42
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by hello123 on May 2, 2015, at 15:47:52
and in the early 1900's. Schizophrenia was the tesult of "anxiety reactions"- unsuccessful adjustment to lifes stresses- and only occured in individuals who failed to have satisfying sexual experiences
Posted by Rick on May 2, 2015, at 18:13:27
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2015, at 20:13:56
Thought I posted this yesterday, but maybe I forgot to click Confirm.
Anyway, I note that the author information says, "Dr Healy...has acted as an expert witness in cases relating to suicide and violence and SSRIs." While this does not necessarily prove bias, IMO it makes it more likely. Also, quite a few of the commenters seem confident that SSRI's do help many people.
Posted by Rick on May 2, 2015, at 18:15:46
In reply to 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
Also meant to point out that the article was originally an April 21 editorial in the British Medical Journal.
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2015, at 18:25:50
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?' » Phillipa, posted by Rick on May 2, 2015, at 18:13:27
I am betting more docs weighed in on it now. Will read your link. As I know people in real life that do well on them. Thanks P
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2015, at 18:46:39
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 2, 2015, at 18:15:46
Wow so many comments now on this. Good and bad of course. But what I noted also is that lexapro seems to one doc to be the best. I will check this link frequently thanks P
Posted by linkadge on May 2, 2015, at 18:57:56
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?' » Phillipa, posted by Rick on May 2, 2015, at 18:13:27
I didn't say that SSRIs helped *many* people. I have no idea how many they legitimately help or hurt.
My point is simply that people have a choice. They can make the choice to take any medication or not. They can discontinue it after one dose, if they choose.
Don't take the medication because your doctor tells you to, or that you believe you "should". Make a choice, folks and live with it. Don't take a med and then sit around complaining that it isn't what you want. If its not what you want then stop it. Balance the pros and cons and make a decision.
Take it if you feel it helps and don't if you feel it doesn't help you. Its really that simple.
I have stopped many medications that I didn't think helped me. However, I'm beyond the blame stage where I hold psychiatrists personally responsible for the lack of effect (or side effects) of the drugs. I trust my own experiences, not what the doctor tells me I should experience.I'm sorry that we don't have medications that work better. But at the end of the day, take the medication if it helps, not because you want it to help, or it "should" help, or any other reason.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2015, at 19:39:17
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by linkadge on May 2, 2015, at 18:57:56
Link I agree.
Posted by SLS on May 3, 2015, at 1:57:52
In reply to 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
It has been a long time since neuroscientists have looked at serotonin as being a monolithic explanation for the etiology of mood disorders. On the contrary, it is a myth that the medical community remains myopic and stuck on serotonin. It doesn't. It is time for us laymen to catch up with the scientists, and to think in terms of circuitry along with transmitter substances and receptors. Ultimately, it is the routing of signals that determines function rather than what the signals use as conductors.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on May 10, 2015, at 16:17:31
In reply to 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
I believe the link of low serotonin and depression is mostly myth. Once in a while someone's depression truly will be a result of low serotonin for whatever mysterious reason, and in those cases it is so easy to spot because those people react almost instantly and magically to simple 5htp or tryptophan supplements. Those who don't respond rapidly to these, should probably be looking at meds of NE/DA instead of 5HT. imo
Depression is caused by untold various causes of low or malfuncitoning just-about-anything, not just serotonin. Suspects include all of the neurotransmitters, hormones, enzymes, foreign substances, infections, and genetic insult from birth or environment. For some people, this manifests as a situation of primarily low serotonin, and they are maybe the 15% or so who actually respond remarkably to ssris.
My journeys have taught me that depression is the result of how our genetic instructions are changed by insults from foreign substances (metals, plastics, chemicals, vapors, fungi, pollution, pesticides, herbicides, etc., or from stealth chronic infections with Lyme being a whole lot more common than folks think.
Since the insult varies with each person, and the genes vary with each person, the presentation of psychiatric symptoms will vary with each person as will the treatment. Some of them will simply need more serotonin to bridge the mystery gap. But in my journeys, that doesn't happen often enough.
My supposed "chemical imbalance" depression was not well managed with any of the psych meds for many many years, but then was improved huge with what I have come to know as better antidepressants because they often really work and do so by fixing the actual problem. Antibiotics. And in cases of not using antibiotics, then clean-up diet stuff...to remove the toxins of the suspected infections....because it's the toxins causing the ill feelings anyway, not the actual bugs. But for sure, low serotonin or any other characterization of the state of my neurotransmitters was never true or accurate. Mostly made-up guess theory actually.
Posted by SLS on May 10, 2015, at 22:23:40
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by bleauberry on May 10, 2015, at 16:17:31
Don't forget the behavioral insults of physical abuse, neglect, and bullying as being stressors to the brain in early life. These things produce profound changes in brain structure and function that are independent of environmental substances or pathogens.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on June 8, 2015, at 0:57:28
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by SLS on May 10, 2015, at 22:23:40
What with those that react psychotic to Dopamine and nervous to NE?
Exactly, we are f*ck*d!
Posted by SLS on June 8, 2015, at 2:35:12
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Lamdage22 on June 8, 2015, at 0:57:28
> What with those that react psychotic to Dopamine and nervous to NE?
>
> Exactly, we are f*ck*d!Don't you think that it is a good thing that drugs with different properties produce different results? I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences with drug treatments. It must seem to you that you are f*ck*d, but this is not true for everyone. One person will react badly to Wellbutrin while another achieves remission with it. Luckily, the first person will respond well to Lexapro. Some people get very well, but only if they take combinations of serotonergic, dopaminergic, and noradrenergic agents. Glutamate is also very important, and is the most common excitatory neurotransmitter. One interesting treatment for bipolar depression is to combine Lamictal (antiglutamatergic) with Abilify.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 8, 2015, at 7:12:56
In reply to Re: 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?' » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on June 8, 2015, at 2:35:12
> > What with those that react psychotic to Dopamine and nervous to NE?
> >
> > Exactly, we are f*ck*d!
>
> Don't you think that it is a good thing that drugs with different properties produce different results? I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences with drug treatments. It must seem to you that you are f*ck*d, but this is not true for everyone. One person will react badly to Wellbutrin while another achieves remission with it. Luckily, the first person will respond well to Lexapro. Some people get very well, but only if they take combinations of serotonergic, dopaminergic, and noradrenergic agents. Glutamate is also very important, and is the most common excitatory neurotransmitter. One interesting treatment for bipolar depression is to combine Lamictal (antiglutamatergic) with Abilify.
>
>
> - ScottFriends,
It is written above by Scott what IMHO could influence you to become a life-long psychiatric person that accepts that there is a drug for you, or a combination of drugs for you, that will end your depression.
But what is the evidence for that? And you mothers, are you going to drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor on what Scott has posted here.
Let us use some introspection into what Scott has posted here. He posts that {this is not true for everyone}. That is his response to the poster that posted that these drugs produced a bad experience for him. But what are the statistics that show how many people AND AT WHAT COST a person {receives remission} to a drug as Scott states. These elements are not specified by Scott so we could look at the track-record of these drugs to get a better perspective of the consequences that human beings could be subjected to by becoming a psychiatric patient of a psychiatrist/doctor that drugs their patients.
Now Scott writes, [...Luckily, the first person will respond well to Lexapro...]. But what are the chances that this *Luck* that Scott states is a component of one responding well? The chances are compiled by experts using facts that can give a picture of what these chances are. And chances are, you could kill yourself the moment this drug does to you. You see, there is much more to this than what Scott has posted here and if you are trying to make a more informed decision as to drug yourself or your child on the basis of reading what Scott posts here, I ask you to pause before you jump to any conclusion that what Scott posts here is supportive, for by Mr. Hsiung allowing Scott's statements to stand, you could be led to believe that what he has posted is supportive because support takes precedence here.
You see, there is evidence that great harm could come to those that take these drugs. Harm that could induce a life-ruining condition or death. And if that doesn't get you, the drug could induce addiction and lead one into a road of horrific suffering that many kill themselves in the state of withdrawal as it can be so horrible. Take a chance? Take a chance on what Scott has posted? Be lucky? Or do you want to know all the facts, not just what Scott has posted here.
Friends, I say to you not to be deceived by any statements here that could lead you to think that you could be lucky to escape the consequences of being drugged in collaboration with a psychiatrist without knowing what those chances are for you or your child being drugged. You see, I will show you that the chances are the chances are , mighty slim.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 8, 2015, at 7:43:29
In reply to Lou's response-chanzezare » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on June 8, 2015, at 7:12:56
> > > What with those that react psychotic to Dopamine and nervous to NE?
> > >
> > > Exactly, we are f*ck*d!
> >
> > Don't you think that it is a good thing that drugs with different properties produce different results? I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences with drug treatments. It must seem to you that you are f*ck*d, but this is not true for everyone. One person will react badly to Wellbutrin while another achieves remission with it. Luckily, the first person will respond well to Lexapro. Some people get very well, but only if they take combinations of serotonergic, dopaminergic, and noradrenergic agents. Glutamate is also very important, and is the most common excitatory neurotransmitter. One interesting treatment for bipolar depression is to combine Lamictal (antiglutamatergic) with Abilify.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Friends,
> It is written above by Scott what IMHO could influence you to become a life-long psychiatric person that accepts that there is a drug for you, or a combination of drugs for you, that will end your depression.
> But what is the evidence for that? And you mothers, are you going to drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor on what Scott has posted here.
> Let us use some introspection into what Scott has posted here. He posts that {this is not true for everyone}. That is his response to the poster that posted that these drugs produced a bad experience for him. But what are the statistics that show how many people AND AT WHAT COST a person {receives remission} to a drug as Scott states. These elements are not specified by Scott so we could look at the track-record of these drugs to get a better perspective of the consequences that human beings could be subjected to by becoming a psychiatric patient of a psychiatrist/doctor that drugs their patients.
> Now Scott writes, [...Luckily, the first person will respond well to Lexapro...]. But what are the chances that this *Luck* that Scott states is a component of one responding well? The chances are compiled by experts using facts that can give a picture of what these chances are. And chances are, you could kill yourself the moment this drug does to you. You see, there is much more to this than what Scott has posted here and if you are trying to make a more informed decision as to drug yourself or your child on the basis of reading what Scott posts here, I ask you to pause before you jump to any conclusion that what Scott posts here is supportive, for by Mr. Hsiung allowing Scott's statements to stand, you could be led to believe that what he has posted is supportive because support takes precedence here.
> You see, there is evidence that great harm could come to those that take these drugs. Harm that could induce a life-ruining condition or death. And if that doesn't get you, the drug could induce addiction and lead one into a road of horrific suffering that many kill themselves in the state of withdrawal as it can be so horrible. Take a chance? Take a chance on what Scott has posted? Be lucky? Or do you want to know all the facts, not just what Scott has posted here.
> Friends, I say to you not to be deceived by any statements here that could lead you to think that you could be lucky to escape the consequences of being drugged in collaboration with a psychiatrist without knowing what those chances are for you or your child being drugged. You see, I will show you that the chances are the chances are , mighty slim.
> LouFriends,
Do you think that you will be lucky or that you want to subject your child to luck in that drugging in collaboration with a psychiatrist will produce remission to depression?
Before you put your bet down be advised, that if you don't hit on the first drug and it is stopped, you could be addicted to it without the psychiatrist that did the drugging ever disclosing to you about. And the drug could worsen your condition and induce psychosis. You want to be *Lucky*?
Now Scott writes,[...combining Lamictal with Abilify is an interesting treatment for bipolar depression...]. It may be interesting to him, but you could be led to believe that the treatment is supportive as his statement is left to stand and being supportive takes precedence. He says that it is an interesting treatment which could lead you to believe that psychiatrists do prescribe the combination of those drugs. But so what? Thousands of people are killed by these drugs each and every month and they are being prescribed.
Now the chances are that you will get tardive dyskinesia from taking Abilify is around 4%. This is a huge statistical amount. Do you want to take that chance? But it is much worse than that. For when another psychotropic drug is combined , the chances are increased exponentially. So do you want to be part of it? Do you think that it is supportive to post here that one could take Abilify and Lamictal together?
And about 2% of those taking Abilify are killed by the drug. You see, when you compute chances, the chances are combined. We see that we have 4% and 2%. I guess there could be those that get tardive dyskinesia and then be killed by the drug which could alter the stats here. But I can show you all of that as we go along to see what the chances are.
Lou
Posted by LostBoyinNC46 on June 8, 2015, at 21:12:16
In reply to 'Low Serotonin, Depression Link a Myth?', posted by Rick on May 1, 2015, at 17:26:20
Take it with a BIG grain of salt.
When I feel my depression getting worse, such as when I begin losing my apetite or losing weight without trying or having a chronically down mood, I dont know about you but I just increase the dose of my SSRI a little.
I also gotta keep using that good old CPAP machine with my SSRI and treat that nasty ole sleep apnea.
Usually that works pretty good.
I will stick with the serotonin theory of depression, for now.
Eric AKA, "LostBoyinNC"
This is the end of the thread.
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