Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lindsey75 on January 24, 2013, at 9:16:33
I made a new friend a couple of months ago with a person who moved into my neighborhood. We had a lot in common. Both mothers, both bi-polar with anxiety disorders and panic attacks. The main difference being I am on SSD and she works full time. Since I met her her mental health has gotten much worse, she says all the time that her meds are not working and that her Dr refuses to treat her ADD with narcotics and refuses to up her klonapin sp? dosage and she also wants her prozac and wellbutrin upped as well which she is on 40 and 150 respectively she also takes both gabapentin and lamictal. not sure about any of the spellings. She is about 33 or 34 younger then myself and has only been hospitalized once by her own admission. I said this to her as a positive thing saying you work full time and have only been in the hospital once so you are really doing better then you think after she constantly was telling me about racing thoughts being unable to focus ect ect I thought I could make her feel better she got angry saying she trained herself not to stay in bed long ago. I personally when am in the depths of depression can't train myself to take a shower so I think that is admirable so I told her so and she still seemed unhappy with me saying that as if I were insulting her? I told her that upping the wellbutrin might make her more anxious and irritable, I'm no Dr but you know if you are bipolar antidepressants in high dosages can make you more irritable or worse case manic.. as my 2nd hospitalization can attest to. I felt the best ever!! In my life!!! Ever!!! I don't know why everyone insisted I sleep and eat like the rest of those mere mortals lol!!!! she said the only thing that helps her is klonipin and he won't give her more. I told her how bad benzos were for the memory. I myself rue the day I was handed that xanax Rx I wish to god I could have found another way to overcome panic attacks. The panic attacks are gone but the xanax habit remains. its been 14plus years and god knows what I have forgotten. I stressed to her the importance of therapy hell I have been in therapy for 23yrs. Medication will not do it all no matter how good the pill. She blows that off completely. Literally says she just wants medication to get through the day. I said it probably won't happen you are on everything!! Maybe an anitpyschotic? She says no she is diabetic and her insulin will be affected. Well I will stop writing this novel here, the upshot is this I went to use her ipad and she was google-ing whats the worst mental illness. So I being a nosy beyotch looked at her history she was looking for symptoms of mental illness, borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia, a whole host of weird things, not self help sites either. I don't understand what is going on here? Does she want pills? Does she want attention? Does she want to be crazy? Is she totally crazy? How concerned should I be? she has a child... is this situation dangerous? I am used to people who say they are not crazy. Hell I am famous for going off all my meds and being like "all better now" LOL!!! how can I help her?
Posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2013, at 9:54:50
In reply to need help with new friend, posted by lindsey75 on January 24, 2013, at 9:16:33
Support and good listening skills and seeing she handles her illness her way the most I'd say is maybe if not happy with you doc maybe mine would see you. Other than this nothing. That's just my opinion. Phillipa
Posted by B2chica on January 24, 2013, at 12:18:04
In reply to need help with new friend, posted by lindsey75 on January 24, 2013, at 9:16:33
the nice me would say: just support her, maybe help her find a new pdoc. listen and don't compare illnesses as everyone seems to present a little differently.
NOW, that said, the paranoid untrusting part of me screams: be polite but keep your distance. Not so much for what she is doing, but more importantly how her actions/reactions will effect You.
you sound like you are keeping things together at least now. Great for you And your child(ren).
But having someone that is unstable (enough to be wanting to switch up several meds) could effect your health, especially anxiety (which in my experience exasperates my depression).and to be honest, i don't get the bit about 'trained herself not to stay in bed"like you while going through some of my Tough depression days, i was constantly getting yelled at by boss and job threatened due to my lateness, or absences.
I was/am working full time and was extremely lucky to in the end have an understanding boss. However, that said. It is a great habit to get yourself intoif you can.all in all. i'd say be nice, but careful and maybe keep some distance, dont share too many personal items.
feel free to share them here though.
Good Luck
b2c
Posted by brynb on January 24, 2013, at 18:05:09
In reply to Re: need help with new friend, posted by B2chica on January 24, 2013, at 12:18:04
well said, b2c.
I had a friend who used to thrive on pity and would make everything (including her mental "illness") much worse than it really was. I don't typically speak to my friends about my malady because a.) it still feels like a stigma and b.) it sometimes feels crazy to discuss it with non-depressives and I don't want to burden them.
I don't speak to that "friend" any more--too much drama and she sucked the life outta me like an emotional vampire.
I'm on board w/ your advice.
b
Posted by lindsey75 on January 26, 2013, at 10:24:53
In reply to Re: need help with new friend » B2chica, posted by brynb on January 24, 2013, at 18:05:09
I am going to try and get some distance. I understand sharing feelings but constant complaining is too much. I always like helping someone out even just being there to listen but if the person seems to have no desire to get any better, which appears to be the case in this situation, it becomes frustrating. She also engages in risky behavior that I was unaware of like meeting people online and going out with them. I don't trust anyone! Let alone someone I met on craigslist!!!!! "Craigslist killer ring a bell?" its too much drama, too much! Promiscuity is a definitive sign of bipolar and borderline personality disorder and I think she really raises a lot of borderline flags.
Posted by novelagent on January 31, 2013, at 23:34:07
In reply to need help with new friend, posted by lindsey75 on January 24, 2013, at 9:16:33
Look, there's more constructive ways to find friends that are positive and a whole lot more able to have the strength to prop YOU up while you're drowning than to feel the need to be a lifeguard for someone drowning further out to sea than you are while you're drowning on the shore.
also, come on, reduce your stimulant use. your hurried writing is absurdly unfocused, and I sincerely question whether you might be capable of finding many friends if you were to speak like that in real life.
take care of yourself, we want to see you more at peace in your writing. high doses of stimulants while depressed only serve to expend energy you don't have to expend, and that takes a toll on your already well-worn brain.
> I made a new friend a couple of months ago with a person who moved into my neighborhood. We had a lot in common. Both mothers, both bi-polar with anxiety disorders and panic attacks. The main difference being I am on SSD and she works full time. Since I met her her mental health has gotten much worse, she says all the time that her meds are not working and that her Dr refuses to treat her ADD with narcotics and refuses to up her klonapin sp? dosage and she also wants her prozac and wellbutrin upped as well which she is on 40 and 150 respectively she also takes both gabapentin and lamictal. not sure about any of the spellings. She is about 33 or 34 younger then myself and has only been hospitalized once by her own admission. I said this to her as a positive thing saying you work full time and have only been in the hospital once so you are really doing better then you think after she constantly was telling me about racing thoughts being unable to focus ect ect I thought I could make her feel better she got angry saying she trained herself not to stay in bed long ago. I personally when am in the depths of depression can't train myself to take a shower so I think that is admirable so I told her so and she still seemed unhappy with me saying that as if I were insulting her? I told her that upping the wellbutrin might make her more anxious and irritable, I'm no Dr but you know if you are bipolar antidepressants in high dosages can make you more irritable or worse case manic.. as my 2nd hospitalization can attest to. I felt the best ever!! In my life!!! Ever!!! I don't know why everyone insisted I sleep and eat like the rest of those mere mortals lol!!!! she said the only thing that helps her is klonipin and he won't give her more. I told her how bad benzos were for the memory. I myself rue the day I was handed that xanax Rx I wish to god I could have found another way to overcome panic attacks. The panic attacks are gone but the xanax habit remains. its been 14plus years and god knows what I have forgotten. I stressed to her the importance of therapy hell I have been in therapy for 23yrs. Medication will not do it all no matter how good the pill. She blows that off completely. Literally says she just wants medication to get through the day. I said it probably won't happen you are on everything!! Maybe an anitpyschotic? She says no she is diabetic and her insulin will be affected. Well I will stop writing this novel here, the upshot is this I went to use her ipad and she was google-ing whats the worst mental illness. So I being a nosy beyotch looked at her history she was looking for symptoms of mental illness, borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia, a whole host of weird things, not self help sites either. I don't understand what is going on here? Does she want pills? Does she want attention? Does she want to be crazy? Is she totally crazy? How concerned should I be? she has a child... is this situation dangerous? I am used to people who say they are not crazy. Hell I am famous for going off all my meds and being like "all better now" LOL!!! how can I help her?
Posted by lindsey75 on February 8, 2013, at 19:55:38
In reply to Re: need help with new friend » lindsey75, posted by novelagent on January 31, 2013, at 23:34:07
I am sorry my hurried writing is difficult for you to understand novel-agent.
I suppose I should have made more paragraphs but I did not think I was being graded for form, I was just getting my thoughts down.I do not take stimulants, picture me talking slowly here, I take xanax and lithium for bipolar and panic attacks in the past.
Also, I was not out looking for friends, this lady bought a house in my neighborhood.
Deeply sorry to offend your sensibilities by typing in one paragraph.
I have trouble imagining that you can judge how I speak by a post on the internet.
I can tell however that you are a judgmental person who needs people to talk real slow or you get confused.
Who also sits in his house and has nothing better to do then to try and insult someone he has never met and knows nothing about.
Ostensibly to make you feel better about your own life.
I won't venture to guess what medication you are on. I hear personality disorders don't respond well to medications.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 9, 2013, at 11:34:14
In reply to Re: need help with new friend, posted by lindsey75 on February 8, 2013, at 19:55:38
Hi, everyone,
OK, that's a t*t for a tat. Looking back at what happened, it didn't help that novelagent made some mistaken assumptions. Also, "I-statements" might have helped. It tends to be more effective to talk about yourself than the other person. For example, instead of:
> also, come on, reduce your stimulant use. your hurried writing is absurdly unfocused
an I-statement could've been:
> also, come on, reduce your stimulant use. i find it difficult to understand your writing
and instead of:
> I can tell ... that you are a judgmental person
>
> Who also sits in his house and has nothing better to do then to try and insult someone he has never met and knows nothing about.an I-statement could've been:
> I feel judged and insulted.
Bob
Posted by hyperfocus on February 13, 2013, at 19:45:41
In reply to need help with new friend, posted by lindsey75 on January 24, 2013, at 9:16:33
I think you could tell her with certainty that there is no med treatment for adult ADD -- only behavioral and cognitive strategies work long-term. Meds for ADD carry a ton of side-effects and consequences and risks with limited effectiveness, and it's not surprising that her doctor isn't going to do it, given her history and current condition. She __should__ be proud that she's able to hold down a full-time job; a lot of people here including myself can't. Psych meds aren't really like cold meds or insulin -- you can't load up the dosage and expect to see increased effectiveness. She sounds like she needs to have a lot of therapeutic support or counseling for whatever mini-crisis she's facing right now. It's nothing you don't know already though.
You can't help everybody it's true and you have to see about yourself first. But borderline people are people inside too. My mother many times acts like this and it causes a lot of people who get to know her to distance themselves from her. But you just have to try if you are able to be patient and extra-caring and try to bite through the irrational front they put up. Dealing with multiple psych conditions and very limited and imperfect treatment is extremely frustrating and engenders hopelessness and anger in most people, borderline or no. I can't really tell you what to do or say in your situation but whatever you do I think at least you shouldn't leave her feeling like you're judging her or abandoning her -- it just reinforces her behavior. If you sense she's ever putting down her defenses you could just re-tell her what you both probably already know. She might just be going through a bad circumstance and really need and want support more than anything else.
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2013, at 12:52:56
In reply to Re: need help with new friend » lindsey75, posted by hyperfocus on February 13, 2013, at 19:45:41
> I think you could tell her with certainty that there is no med treatment for adult ADD
That's a pretty strong statement. From where does your certitude come?
I can't speak from personal experience, but I have seen stimulants and atomoxetine change the lives of several adults with ADD. Even desipramine can be of great help.
> -- only behavioral and cognitive strategies work long-term.
I have not followed these people for more than 5 years, so I can't say that their responses drug treatment will last indefinitely.
> Meds for ADD carry a ton of side-effects
That's a lot of side-effects! Some people - like me - experience no side effects at all from amphetamines. What side effects do you feel are most frequent and problematic?
I can't address the appropriateness of drug treatment for the friend. It is not my place. However, adult ADD is not usually refractory to medical treatment.
- Scott
--------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22917983
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 2012 Aug 20. [Epub ahead of print]Long-term efficacy and safety of treatment with stimulants and atomoxetine in adult ADHD: A review of controlled and naturalistic studies.
Fredriksen M, Halmøy A, Faraone SV, Haavik J.
Source
Division of Mental Health & Addiction, Vestfold Hospital Trust, Norway.
Abstract
Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a common disorder of childhood that often persists into adulthood. Although stimulant medications are recommended as the first-line treatment for ADHD because of their documented short-term effects in children and adults, less is known about their effects on long-term outcome in adults. Here we review the long-term efficacy and safety of the stimulant drugs methylphenidate and amphetamine, as well as the related compound atomoxetine. We performed a systematic review to identify direct and indirect effects of stimulant therapy on long-term outcome in adults. Five randomized controlled trials (RCTs), and 10 open-label extension studies of initial short-term RCTs, with total follow-up of at least 24weeks, were identified. All these RCTs found that medication was significantly more efficacious than placebo in treating ADHD in adults, and the extension studies showed that this favorable effect of medication was maintained during the open-label follow-up period. However, since the maximum duration of these pharmacological trials was 4years, we also reviewed 18 defined naturalistic longitudinal and cross-sectional studies, to provide more information about longer term functional outcomes, side effects and complications. These observational studies also showed positive correlations between early recognition of the disorder, stimulant treatment during childhood and favorable long-term outcome in adult ADHD patients. In conclusion, stimulant therapy of ADHD has long-term beneficial effects and is well tolerated. However, more longitudinal studies of long duration should be performed. In addition, the ethical issues involved in performing double blind RCTs of many years duration should be further explored.
Copyright © 2012 Elsevier B.V. and ECNP. All rights reserved.
PMID:
22917983
[PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Posted by hyperfocus on February 16, 2013, at 16:54:42
In reply to Re: need help with new friend, posted by SLS on February 16, 2013, at 12:52:56
> > I think you could tell her with certainty that there is no med treatment for adult ADD
>
> That's a pretty strong statement. From where does your certitude come?
>
If current ADD meds are assumed to treat the condition utilizing the same mechanisms that SSRIs and SNRIs and APs et.al are assumed to treat mental illness, then I stand by my statement.
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2013, at 21:03:34
In reply to Re: need help with new friend, posted by SLS on February 16, 2013, at 12:52:56
Evolving from childhood not developing as an adult was my understanding of the article? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2013, at 22:24:21
In reply to Re: need help with new friend » SLS, posted by hyperfocus on February 16, 2013, at 16:54:42
> > > I think you could tell her with certainty that there is no med treatment for adult ADD
> >
> > That's a pretty strong statement. From where does your certitude come?
> >
> If current ADD meds are assumed to treat the condition utilizing the same mechanisms that SSRIs and SNRIs and APs et.al are assumed to treat mental illness, then I stand by my statement.I have assumed no such thing. I don't think the authors of the study I cited have assumed any such thing. I think it is you who have assumed that others are assuming. When tested clinically, these drugs are observed empirically to have therapeutic effects. This seems to be a consistent finding. As to how these drugs work is still a matter of investigation. Perhaps reregulation of noradrenergic circuitry in the right prefrontal cortex? I don't know. I haven't kept up with the research in this area. I am curious, though, why atomoxetine can make for such a good drug for adult ADHD and such a poor drug for depression. There might be a clue in there somewhere.
* For a minority of people with depression, atomoxetine is a miracle drug. The heterogeneity in clinical outcomes when using psychotropic medications is fascinating, but confounding, and urgently needs to be understood.
- Scott
Posted by hyperfocus on February 16, 2013, at 23:52:34
In reply to Re: need help with new friend » hyperfocus, posted by SLS on February 16, 2013, at 22:24:21
> > > > I think you could tell her with certainty that there is no med treatment for adult ADD
> > >
> > > That's a pretty strong statement. From where does your certitude come?
> > >
> > If current ADD meds are assumed to treat the condition utilizing the same mechanisms that SSRIs and SNRIs and APs et.al are assumed to treat mental illness, then I stand by my statement.
>
> I have assumed no such thing. I don't think the authors of the study I cited have assumed any such thing. I think it is you who have assumed that others are assuming. When tested clinically, these drugs are observed empirically to have therapeutic effects. This seems to be a consistent finding. As to how these drugs work is still a matter of investigation. Perhaps reregulation of noradrenergic circuitry in the right prefrontal cortex? I don't know. I haven't kept up with the research in this area. I am curious, though, why atomoxetine can make for such a good drug for adult ADHD and such a poor drug for depression. There might be a clue in there somewhere.
>
> * For a minority of people with depression, atomoxetine is a miracle drug. The heterogeneity in clinical outcomes when using psychotropic medications is fascinating, but confounding, and urgently needs to be understood.
>
>
> - ScottThe assumption I'm questioning is that meds that regulate neurotransmitter levels can treat complex disorders of learning and thinking. People with ADD can see improvements in their symptoms when they take their meds. When the meds are stopped, the symptoms return. A majority of people with anxiety see significant theraputic response to benzos. If somebody asked me if benzos treated anxiety I would still say no.
>When tested clinically, these drugs are observed empirically to have therapeutic effects.
Just as in the case of benzos, does short-term therapeutic response to meds with potentially severe side-effects translate to viable treatment? The poster mentions her own experience with benzo treatment for anxiety.The ability of psychotropic meds to affect one's cognition and emotions I'm not disputing. There is no simple demonstrated connection between this fact and successful sustained treatment of disorders like ADD. This is what I was trying to communicate, tersely, in my statement. The major problem I have with studies like the one you quoted is that similar ones exist on SSRIs. Do SSRIs treat depression?
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 7:56:06
In reply to Re: treatment » SLS, posted by hyperfocus on February 16, 2013, at 23:52:34
> Do SSRIs treat depression?
Of course not. No one ever feels better when they take SSRIs, right?
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on February 17, 2013, at 21:04:34
In reply to Re: treatment, posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 7:56:06
I know a lot of people in real life that do great with SSRI's and need nothing else? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2013, at 23:43:31
In reply to Re: treatment » SLS, posted by Phillipa on February 17, 2013, at 21:04:34
> I know a lot of people in real life that do great with SSRI's and need nothing else?
It's true. Unfortunately, these people don't post here to let us know about their successes. They are never motivated to look for sites like Psycho-Babble in the first place. They have no need.
- Scott
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.