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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 22:08:22
In reply to B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 18:24:57
All of the studies you cited were performed by the same research team. I am surprised that they didn't extend this experiment beyond 14 days. Whereas probiotic treatment reduced inflammatory markers, it did NOT produce the behavioral effects that would have indicated an effective antidepressant treatment. Perhaps it would have had they continued the experiment. Perhaps not. In any event, I would interpret the results of this study as failing to support their hypothesis that probiotics produce antidepressant effects, and does not lend support to the notion that inflammation causes depression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18456279
"Sprague-Dawley rats were treated for 14 days with B. infantis. Probiotic administration in naive rats had no effect on swim behaviours on day 3 or day 14 following the commencement of treatment."
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 22:20:08
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 22:08:22
I was wondering whether you would spot that. However there is a good explanation for the 'failure' of bifido treated rats in the swim test. This was a poorly designed trial because it didn't use 'depressed' rats, just normal rats. It was a bit like giving an antidepressant to normal people and seeing if they felt any less depressed.
I note that you conveniently ignored the rat trial that did use depressed rats and did produce a reversal of depressive behaviour.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20696216
Posted by SLS on December 22, 2012, at 23:34:42
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » SLS, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 22:20:08
> I was wondering whether you would spot that. However there is a good explanation for the 'failure' of bifido treated rats in the swim test. This was a poorly designed trial because it didn't use 'depressed' rats, just normal rats. It was a bit like giving an antidepressant to normal people and seeing if they felt any less depressed.
>
> I note that you conveniently ignoredIt wasn't an act of convenience. I just missed it. I'll check it out more closely.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 23, 2012, at 9:35:58
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » SLS, posted by Trotter on December 22, 2012, at 22:20:08
The rat maternal separation (MS) model of depression seems to be valid enough. So is the forced-swim test, though. I kind of like the ideal of MS, as it might more closely approximate childhood trauma and neglect; this being an to chronic psychosocial stress, and perhaps even developmental PTSD.
I guess we will just have to wait to see where this whole inflammation thing goes. There have been plenty of "false-starts" in the past towards the pursuit of a cure for depression. In the meantime, it might make sense to try a few anti-inflammatory treatments. The minocycline that I currently take demonstrates potent anti-inflammatory effects in the brain. However, it is not without potentially serious side effects. They occur infrequently, though. I imagine dietary supplementation with probiotics would be without such risks. It will be interesting to see what answers the field of neuropsychoimmunology provides in the future.
What is your current mood status, and how have probiotics altered the course of your depressive illness? What else are you taking to reduce inflammation?
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:02:16
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 23, 2012, at 9:35:58
I'm on fluvoxamine and olanzapine. Both work to some extent but I'm still depressed.
I'm not taking anything to reduce inflammation at the moment. It is my plan to phase in probiotics, prebiotics, EPA fish oil and curcumin. That's why I am researching same in advance of starting.
I'm not ruling out minocycline, but want to first pursue things less likely to cause side effects.
>
> What is your current mood status, and how have probiotics altered the course of your depressive illness? What else are you taking to reduce inflammation?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:05:00
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression, posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:02:16
... and low fat diet.
Posted by SLS on December 23, 2012, at 20:54:58
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression, posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 13:02:16
> I'm on fluvoxamine and olanzapine. Both work to some extent but I'm still depressed.
>
> I'm not taking anything to reduce inflammation at the moment. It is my plan to phase in probiotics, prebiotics, EPA fish oil and curcumin. That's why I am researching same in advance of starting.
>
> I'm not ruling out minocycline, but want to first pursue things less likely to cause side effects.
Good luck with your inflammation reduction strategy. I'm sure I won't be the only person waiting to hear good news from you.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 23, 2012, at 23:26:25
In reply to Re: B. infantis reduces inflammation + depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 23, 2012, at 20:54:58
Thanks Scott.
In case anyone is interested, after doing some more research I am now pretty confident that it is no longer necessary to stick to a low fat diet to reduce inflammation and depression, as long as bifidobacterial numbers are increased with a good prebiotic like Bimuno, or by supplementing with a bifido probiotic like Align. You see I'm convinced it is the level of bifidobacteria that is important, not the fat in the diet per se. A high fat diet reduces bifidobacteria, which causes inflammation and depression, but is entirely preventable by feeding a bifido prebiotic or probiotic. Review the two linked trials for proof. I have a lot of confidence in these two studies because they were done by completely different research teams, and involved different methods of restoring bifidobacteria, but achieved the same positive outcome - cessation of endotoxaemia (which causes inflammation and then depression).
Posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 13:27:49
In reply to High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 19, 2012, at 23:44:21
Hi everybody. It's been a while. This thread caught my eye, and I wanted to see if I remembered how to post before I spent any time putting together a contribution to this thread.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 15:06:58
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 13:27:49
It worked. Merry Christmas!
I've been following the nutritional science that I think relates to the obesity epidemic, the prevalence of depression, diseases of Western civilization (obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, dementia, stroke, and so on) for a while now. And quite frankly, the evidence contradicts the most basic tenets of the dogma of the day. Chronic ingestion of carbs is the root of all these evils, not fat intake. After all, if you want to fatten an animal, you feed it on grains, not fat. Why would we be any different? Let's see if I can at least raise some curiosity about my own belief.
My intellectual journey started with the reading of this article, by Gary Taubes. It's called "What if it's all been a big fat lie?", which was published in the New York Times. Here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all&src=pmThat got me thinking, especially the part about the historically accepted common wisdom always having been that starches and sugars made you fat, until that idea was challenged by an hypothesis put forward by a doctor named Ancel Keys, which blamed obesity on fat intake. Somehow, this theory becaome "fact" (more properly, a factoid), and the brain-washing began. That's a strong term, brain-washing, but it is a reasonable term when one considers that we are taught to believe something that runs contrary to most of the available evidence. How is it that the obesity epidemic is worse over time, as we collectively cut fat intake? How is it that obesity is far more common in lower socio-economic circumstances?
To get to the heart of the problem, you have to understand that insulin does a heck of a lot more than simply regulate sugar metabolism. It controls fat metabolism, too. It also controls appetite, although indirectly.
Sugar is toxic. Just consider what happens to uncontrolled blood sugar in diabetics. It can kill. Even in well-controlled diabetics, blood circulation is adversely affected, especially in the periphery. Nerve damage is common, and cumulative. But diabetes is often comorbid with hypertension, cardiovascular disease, obesity, and high blood lipids. Seems like that Western civilization disease list, actually.
Sugar consumption is also very strongly correlated with major depression, on a population-wide basis. Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12415536
Just as an aside, I think that sugar in this case could be a surrogate marker for other intances of food processing, which would artificially inflate the correlation coefficient. Americans now consume over five times the amount of sugar than they did a century ago, so maybe there's a link to mental health issues today. And if you follow the rest of what I bring forward, maybe you'll see the connection.Getting back to Taubes, he got me looking at the Atkins diet, which is prominently discussed in that article that I led off with. Atkins does not rely on calorie restriction. You eat until you're satisfied. And yet, you lose weight. But Atkins has been attacked for decades, as the primary source of energy is from fat. And fat is no good for you, right?
Let's look at a modern comparison of the Atkins (very low-carb), Zone (low-carb), Ornish (very high carb), and LEARN (low-fat, high-carb, calorie restricted) diets. Participants were obese and overweight premenopausal women. The study was conducted over a 12 month period. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=205916
In all variables in which there was a significant difference in outcomes, the Atkins diet was the best. In fact, Atkins participants lost more weight, lowered their blood pressure more (especially systolic), had greater increases in HDL (good cholesterol), and greater reduction in triglycerides.
What's that, the highest fat diet had lower circulating blood fat levels, and greatest reduction in cardiovascular risk factors? Yes.
How is that possible? Insulin.
As we know, insulin regulates sugar metabolism. But sugar metabolism is not our default source of energy. Fat is the "normal" energy source for all cells, directly or indirectly. It is only in the presence of dietary sugars (including starch) that insulin is secreted by the pancreas in substantial amounts. Insulin tells all cells to shut down their fat metabolism, and switch over to burning sugar, to keep it from reaching dangerous levels in the blood.
Perhaps the most profound change arises in two separate tissues, the liver, and adipocytes. Adipocytes are fat storage cells, most commonly found in the hips, buttocks, and abdomen. When the body is in fat burning mode, adipocytes buffer the fat content of the blood, by absorbing and releasing fat as needed. But, in the presence of strong insulin levels, adipocytes stop releasing fat. They can only take it up, i.e. store it. Moreover, the insulin commands both the liver and adipocytes to manufacture fat out of sugar (a process called de novo lipogenesis). The effect is to partition energy into storage, rather than using it to supply the body with energy. Only when the insulin level falls back towards baseline can the adipocytes begin to release fat once more.
But something else happens in the adipocytes, as well. Adipocytes are actually part of the endocrine gland system, releasing regulatory hormones. As insulin falls in the blood (i.e. sugar is depleted to safe levels), the adipocytes release appetitive hormones. You get hungry. So, in the face of recurrent carb intake, your adipocytes continue to do what they were programmed to do. They store fat, and make you hungry. So long as carbs are available, you will be hungry enough to eat more, and store more fat.
And now we come to the issue of cause and effect. We all know that obesity is associated with over-eating, and low physical activity. We are told that obesity is caused by over-eating and low physical activity. In fact, it's the other way around. Obesity causes over-eating, and low energy levels.
My assertion is based on a better understanding of the interplay between insulin and energy metabolism as a whole. Insulin only comes into the picture in a meaningful way when sugars are flooding the bloodstream. Insulin shuts down fat metabolism altogether, and partitions a significant proportion of the ingested carbohydrate calories into fat. The result is that even in the presence of abundant energy sources, the body is actually starved of energy, once the sugars are depleted from the blood. It takes time to turn on the fat metabolism once more, and in the meantime, your energy level plummets. But before the energy flow can be restored, hormones make you hungry once more. Rinse and repeat.
Our bodies are not capable of maintaining this carb-driven cycle for extended periods of time, without having other regulatory systems upregulated, to try and force things back into the normal range. Inflammatory cytokines are released in increasing amounts, in an attempt to force cells into ignoring the effect of insulin. Appetitive hormones (especially leptin and ghrelin) compete for dominance, often resulting in leptin resistance (very common in type 2 diabetes).
Meanwhile, what about dietary fat? Remember the Atkins study, which showed that triglycerides fell on a high-fat diet? Here are a couple of full-text articles to cover those issues. Basically, dietary saturated fat is independent of blood levels of saturated fat, strange as that may sound.
http://www.njmonline.nl/getpdf.php?id=10000756
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974193/Sorry, I've got to run to get to Xmas dinner! I'll close with an abstract that indicates that some scientists are indeed questioning the dogma of today.
http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495(12)00438-6/abstractGary Taubes has written a very accessible book, called "Why We Get Fat: And what to do about it." He covers a lot of this stuff in fascinating detail, including the history of each nutritional myth.
More, anon.
Merry Christmas,
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 15:10:36
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 15:06:58
P.S. It may be of interest to some, but phenelzine is associated with weight loss, and it may be because phenelzine blocks the conversion of sugar to fat in adipocytes.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00702-012-0951-3
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 26, 2012, at 0:32:50
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 15:10:36
Yes, I think where nutritionists went wrong is that they looked at the SAD diet, which was high in fat and high in refined carbs, and has links to heart disease and diabetes, and decided that fat was the culprit. However it is the combination that is the problem. Of the two individually, refined carbs is the bigger cause of obesity.
The only problem with a high fat low carb diet that I know of is when the diet is also low in oligosaccharides, which is normally the case with modern diets. I think paleolithic man consumed lots of inulin, whereas modern low carbers don't. This can lead to very low levels of bifidobacteria in the bowel, contributing to depression. Bifidobacteria like carbs, so if you cut back on them you need to supplement with GOS, FOS or inulin.
Posted by rca on December 26, 2012, at 18:08:21
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Phillipa on December 22, 2012, at 10:27:01
I am convinced there is a strong link between diet and mood states. BTW a recent interesting CME in Medscape Psychiatry is Genes, Germs, and Grief: The Role of Folate at the Intersection of Inflammation, Obesity, and Depression CME ;
Rakesh Jain, MD, MPH; Vladimir Maletic, MD, MS; Charles Raison, MDCME Released: 12/20/2012; Valid for credit through 12/20/2013
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/776038_2
or http://watch.knowledgevision.com/c0d23178d39340a4af3326202f951db2
Posted by Emme_V2 on December 26, 2012, at 18:28:22
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by larryhoover on December 25, 2012, at 13:27:49
> Hi everybody. It's been a while. This thread caught my eye, and I wanted to see if I remembered how to post before I spent any time putting together a contribution to this thread.
>
> Lar
Hey Larry. Nice to see your name again! Hope you are well and having a good winter.emme
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:40:07
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by Emme_V2 on December 26, 2012, at 18:28:22
Nice to see your name here, too, Emme. (And many other old-timers, also.) I should have stayed away from Admin, though.
Yes, I'm having a good winter. I have not been so well in a very long time. How about you?
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:46:40
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 26, 2012, at 0:32:50
> Yes, I think where nutritionists went wrong is that they looked at the SAD diet, which was high in fat and high in refined carbs, and has links to heart disease and diabetes, and decided that fat was the culprit. However it is the combination that is the problem. Of the two individually, refined carbs is the bigger cause of obesity.
Except for limited exceptions, carb intake appears to be the cause of obesity, IMHO, after looking at all the evidence.
> The only problem with a high fat low carb diet that I know of is when the diet is also low in oligosaccharides, which is normally the case with modern diets. I think paleolithic man consumed lots of inulin, whereas modern low carbers don't. This can lead to very low levels of bifidobacteria in the bowel, contributing to depression. Bifidobacteria like carbs, so if you cut back on them you need to supplement with GOS, FOS or inulin.
Good point. What are some common food sources for oligosaccharides?
BTW, I've continued researching the role of adipocytes with respect to systemic inflammation, and it would appear that dietary saturated fats have no effect on inflammation whatsoever. It is only when de novo lipogenesis occurs (sat fats created by the liver and fatty tissues) that the levels of inflammatory cytokines rise.
Lar
Posted by rca on December 27, 2012, at 11:50:23
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:46:40
All nutrition comes from plants (ok B12 from bacteria). Macronutrients are macro because they are needed relatively large amounts primarily carbs readily burned for energy, proteins for building (eg skeletal muscle), fat for storage of excess macronutrients (some fats used for building of course Im over-simplifying). There are hundreds of thousands of phytonutrients in plants the vast majority of which we do not understand what their function is in plants or in humans; however, we are beginning to see their vital protective role (for plants and animals).
Of course there are some nutrients that are not in plants, animals make them like cholesterol and arachidonic acid, When we eat other animals storages of these important nutrients they lose their nutritive role, the former compound responsible for heart disease and the latter implicated in depression (and inflammation).
The key in reduction of obesity is to limit fats (use high omega 3 to 6 ratio), use of complex carbohydrates and fiber for optimal timing of energy release, and provide adequate protein all accomplished with a plant based diet. However the gains of a PBD goes way beyond limiting weight gain it reduces the risk of the most common diseases of the western world.
And portion control as the only accepted technique (in every tested species I think)that appears to be correlated with long life is calorie restriction.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 12:35:07
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:40:07
> I have not been so well in a very long time
That is a joy to hear.
What's the secret?
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 14:02:57
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 12:35:07
This may sound a bit odd, but my current thinking is that most depression is caused by low bifidobacteria in the bowel. Known factors that impact on depression seem to reduce bifidobacteria. For example it is known that stress reduces bifidobacteria. So does a high fat diet. Both are linked to depression.
Why would low bifodobacteria cause depression? Well it seems bifidobacteria are critical in preventing endotoxemia. Endotoxemia causes the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines (PIC) which cross the blood:brain barrier causing depression. While it is not known exactly how bifidobacteria prevent endotoxemia, or how PIC cause depression, there is strong evidence showing that they do.
So, is the cure for depression simply to increase bifidobacteria in the bowel? Well, without well designed human trials this in unknown. However in the only trial I am aware of that looked at increasing bifidobacteria in depressed rats, the results were positive. In mice, increasing bifidobacteria was shown to reduce anxiety.
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:19:59
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by rca on December 27, 2012, at 11:50:23
> Macronutrients are macro because they are needed relatively large amounts primarily carbs readily burned for energy...
I know that what I'm suggesting is not consistent with current nutritional dogma, but carbs are not necessary in our diets. In fact, I would argue that they were only occasionally available to our hunter-gatherer ancestors, i.e. seasonally. Our default energy source is fat. Our liver can create glucose from protein. There is nothing essential whatsoever about carbohydrates.
> Of course there are some nutrients that are not in plants, animals make them like cholesterol and arachidonic acid, When we eat other animals storages of these important nutrients they lose their nutritive role, the former compound responsible for heart disease and the latter implicated in depression (and inflammation).
There is no relationship between dietary intake of cholesterol, and cholesterol levels in our blood. And if you read the following study, you'll see that high arachidonic acid levels can be present, in the absence of inflammatory derivatives. In all but the most recent work, any earlier study related to fat intake and sequelae was hopelessly confounded by an uncontrolled independent variable, i.e. carb intake. Only when carb intake is controlled can you see what effect is attributable to fat intake.
I think the following study has an interesting remark in the conclusions section. "Persistence of (low saturated fat diet) recommendations in the face of continued failure of large trials to show an effect of saturated fat remains one of the strange anomalies in current medical science."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974193/
> The key in reduction of obesity is to limit fats
I believe I provided good evidence already of the falsity of that belief. Carb restriction is required.
> And portion control as the only accepted technique (in every tested species I think)that appears to be correlated with long life is calorie restriction.
Calorie restriction has not been shown to extend life in humans, as far as I am aware. Portion control is only necessary when your satiety mechancisms are perverted by carb intake. Again, I provided evidence for this mechanism already.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:39:47
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 12:35:07
> > I have not been so well in a very long time
>
> That is a joy to hear.
>
> What's the secret?
>
> :-)
>
>
> - ScottThank you for the affirmation, Scott.
I really don't have a secret, other than hard work. Paying attention to the details. Maybe some good luck, too.
I was going to get into this a bit in another thread, but I think the most important changes were cognitive. Key, I think, was learning not to compare myself.
When I was deeply depressed, I had a clear memory of how my life had changed for the worse. I wanted to once more be how I remembered myself. But when I projected into the future, I only saw a failed version of what was to come. Thinking about those things exacerbated my depression. I had to learn to focus on today.
It was a gradual thing, to be able to moderate my own self talk, to redirect the mutterings in my brain, to keep from falling into vicious circles of negative thinking. Because you do react, emotionally, to your own thoughts, you are at least a little bit, creating your own reality.
I learned to take a daily inventory, of my energy, my desires, my needs. And I learned to focus there. And without any obvious realization of it, that also served to break the negative thinking associated with my past and my future. And as I did it better, I got better, which was a strong reinforcer of the adaptation I was creating for myself.
I developed a mental checklist. Getting enough sleep was an absolute essential. As was taking my supplements (antioxidants and certain minerals seem to be particularly important for ME). Choosing my battles. Not letting myself beat myself up for being unwell, but instead, replacing that with the knowledge that I was doing my best.
A lot of little things, really. But collectively, rather significant. And like I said, maybe there was a little bit of luck involved.
"I am a strong believer in luck and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." -- Benjamin Franklin
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
In reply to Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 14:02:57
I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
Thanks,
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 15:51:22
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
> I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
> Larhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htm
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:03:49
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 15:51:22
> > I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lar
>
> http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/28/high-fat-diet-linked-to-depression-anxiety-in-mice/39295.html
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htmThanks for your speedy reply. I was actually looking for a correlation in humans.
I was already aware of this rodent research, but it is inconsistent across studies. I can show you a rodent study where increasing fat decreased depression.
I also want to point out that these studies all have a confounding variable. They assume that the carb intake is irrelevant. At least in humans, carb intake has to be somewhere around 10-20% or less, for the effects of varying fat composition to be clearly observable.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:05:08
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
> I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
> Lar
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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