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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:35:54
I'm in hell. I'd forgotten how bad MAOI withdrawal (Parnate) is. I tapered down 10mg every 3 days from 60mg. Took last dose a week ago. Since then, I've felt totally wired, depersonalized, suicidal, agitated, sick (flu-like symptoms) and, worst of all, cannot sleep properly.
I was taking 1.5mg of Klonopin at night while on Parnate but it didn't do anything for sleep or anxiety anyway (and felt depressogenic) so I cut back to 1.25mg as well, but I don't feel like that's particularly contributing to my symptoms.
Anyway, I have a masochistic streak, so tend to just push through this kind of stuff rather than bridge/complicate things with more Rx's. Waiting for p-doc to return from vacation and start Memantine on September 7th.
Taurine is helping the daytime anxiety. Just wish I could sleep. If I add 5mg of Valium to the Klonopin, I'm set, which my p-doc said to continue with, but isn't withdrawing from two benzos (at whatever point in the future) kinda asking for trouble (not to mention the conflicting half-lives, etc.)?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2012, at 8:04:02
In reply to how long does MAOI withdrawal last?, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:35:54
> I'm in hell. I'd forgotten how bad MAOI withdrawal (Parnate) is. I tapered down 10mg every 3 days from 60mg. Took last dose a week ago. Since then, I've felt totally wired, depersonalized, suicidal, agitated, sick (flu-like symptoms) and, worst of all, cannot sleep properly.
>
> I was taking 1.5mg of Klonopin at night while on Parnate but it didn't do anything for sleep or anxiety anyway (and felt depressogenic) so I cut back to 1.25mg as well, but I don't feel like that's particularly contributing to my symptoms.
>
> Anyway, I have a masochistic streak, so tend to just push through this kind of stuff rather than bridge/complicate things with more Rx's. Waiting for p-doc to return from vacation and start Memantine on September 7th.
>
> Taurine is helping the daytime anxiety. Just wish I could sleep. If I add 5mg of Valium to the Klonopin, I'm set, which my p-doc said to continue with, but isn't withdrawing from two benzos (at whatever point in the future) kinda asking for trouble (not to mention the conflicting half-lives, etc.)?g_g_g
You wrote,[...I'm in hell...withdrawal...suicidal...worst of all...withdrawaling from..benzos..asking for trouble...].
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2012, at 8:57:43
In reply to Lou's response- » g_g_g_unit, posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2012, at 8:04:02
> > I'm in hell. I'd forgotten how bad MAOI withdrawal (Parnate) is. I tapered down 10mg every 3 days from 60mg. Took last dose a week ago. Since then, I've felt totally wired, depersonalized, suicidal, agitated, sick (flu-like symptoms) and, worst of all, cannot sleep properly.
> >
> > I was taking 1.5mg of Klonopin at night while on Parnate but it didn't do anything for sleep or anxiety anyway (and felt depressogenic) so I cut back to 1.25mg as well, but I don't feel like that's particularly contributing to my symptoms.
> >
> > Anyway, I have a masochistic streak, so tend to just push through this kind of stuff rather than bridge/complicate things with more Rx's. Waiting for p-doc to return from vacation and start Memantine on September 7th.
> >
> > Taurine is helping the daytime anxiety. Just wish I could sleep. If I add 5mg of Valium to the Klonopin, I'm set, which my p-doc said to continue with, but isn't withdrawing from two benzos (at whatever point in the future) kinda asking for trouble (not to mention the conflicting half-lives, etc.)?
>
> g_g_g
> You wrote,[...I'm in hell...withdrawal...suicidal...worst of all...withdrawaling from..benzos..asking for trouble...].
>
> g_g_g,
Now let us reason together. You write that you are in hell. And you write that you take mind-altering addictive drugs. Now I ask, could the hell be a result of the drugs within you?
Now what if others here post to you to take this drug or that drug or more of this or less than that or try to analyze what you have been taking and then tell you to whatever. Now if you have had these drugs prescribed to you by a psychiatrist/doctor, then could not any suggestion to either add or subtract a drug be suggesting that your psychiatrist/doctor is either negligent or incompetant or something else?
You see, I know what these drugs consist of. Many of them have a common denominator of a chemical that is either a synthetic substance that a plant has, or something made from coal-tar or petroleum or substances derived from benzene, amomia or fluoride or other chemicals derived from similar molecular composition. So what I am getting at is that one drug may have a different name than another, but have the same chemical constituants modified in some way. With knowing this, one drug added could be just a new name for an old drug modified and thearfore could have catastophic consequences as that one could still be taking the old drug and be more intensified because it could continue any insult to your nervous system or other organs.
So if you have poeple post to you here that "worked" for them, be advised that the party line here is that if it worked for them it does not have to work for you. And also, what caused the "work"? It could have been a placebo effect or something that happened unrelated to the taking the drug and was coincedence.
Now also, what is the rule and what is the exception? You see, if someone tells you that they are not addicted to benzodiazepines after years and years, they could be the exception, not the rule. And whatever people post here could be anecdotal ,which could be hearsay.
Now I could post here what IMHHHO could save your life. However, Mr Hsiung has posted prohibitions to me that prevent me from doing so. These prohibitions center around the posting of historical facts and the foundation of Judaism as revealed to me, which IMHO if I was allowed to post those , you could be freed from the hell that you decribe. It would come fromn a Jewish perspective as revealed to me which Mr Hsiung has posted a prohibition to me so that I can not post here that.
But be advised, I think that I know how you got in hell. And be advised, that you are being called to (redacted by respondent) a greater life, a life of peace drawn away from the horrors that mind-altering drugs have afflicted upon you, if you agree that your hell is from the drugs. And be advised that one day you could wake up in torment and be compelled to kill yourself and/or others because a psychiatrist gave you the drugs that you list here and now you are waiting for him/her to return and start you on another drug.
Now you say you are in hell. I knew of a person (and I know this is anecdotal but I need to post it here), that was in the same situation that you are in, in hell from withdrawal, but not from parnate as you write here. What happened is that I found out of his suicide and the night before that, I saw him and he said to me, "My drug, my drug, why have you forsaken me."
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2012, at 10:06:27
In reply to Lou's response-phoarpseykhin, posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2012, at 8:57:43
Lou have you ever withdrawn from medication? If so it is not a pleasant experience. The above poster is asking for advise on how to ease this process. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2012, at 14:56:44
In reply to Re: Lou's response-phoarpseykhin » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2012, at 10:06:27
> Lou have you ever withdrawn from medication? If so it is not a pleasant experience. The above poster is asking for advise on how to ease this process. Phillipa
Phillipa,
You wrote,[...Thw above poster is asking for advice on how to ease this process...].
I am unsure as to how you arrived at that from what the poster wrote.
Lou
Posted by Resistant on August 25, 2012, at 17:11:53
In reply to how long does MAOI withdrawal last?, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:35:54
So you had no luck with Parnate either ? Well I'm at day 4 since I stopped Parnate completely. I did it pretty quick (almost cold turkey) and had leg sweats on the second night and a massive increase in dreams. I wasted 3 months on this stuff so I just want to be done with it ASAP. I feel it's all out of my system now and will start Pristiq tomorrow. The 2 week washout period is extreme and I have no intention waiting that long.
Why have you chosen Memantine ? Did you think of trying Nardil ?
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2012, at 17:31:20
In reply to Re: how long does MAOI withdrawal last?, posted by Resistant on August 25, 2012, at 17:11:53
> I feel it's all out of my system now and will start Pristiq tomorrow. The 2 week washout period is extreme and I have no intention waiting that long.
How did you come to this conclusion?
The drug leaves the body rapidly, but the MAO system does not recover so quickly. Serotonin syndrome can be dangerous.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on August 26, 2012, at 5:24:17
In reply to how long does MAOI withdrawal last?, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:35:54
Some herbs could help you sleep. They don't really have the knockout sedation power of meds, but they calm everything way down so the sleep can happen, through a variety of mechanisms.
Skullcap, Valerian, Lemon Balm, Passionflower. A tincture of each is about $12 or so. The synergy of plants is where the magic is, so maybe experiment with each one to introduce yourselves, and then begin combining them. In my experience I found skullcap the most helpful for sleep when I was in zyprexa withdrawals. Valerian helped boost it. Lemon balm was better in the day to calm down jitteriness, and at higher doses sort of acts like a calm stimulation with mood lift. Lower doses more relaxing. Whatever herb benefits you the most, the others act as catalysts to make it work even better.
I'm just thinking this way because we already know how devastating withdrawals are, so this would lessen future benzo withdrawals.
Also would suggest Rhodiola Rosea. Dosing is tricky, but this plant has the potential and reputation to do good for all of the symptoms you mentioned. The other calming herbs kick in within an hour, and though rhodiola might be felt on the first day, its real benefits take a few weeks. I wouldn't analyze too much exactly how or why this plant does so much, just know that it does. It can be as monotherapy and it can be added to most psych meds.
All that said, Parnate is a really powerful substance. So I think it's gonna take some time. That's why the herbs....to help make the journey smoother. I was only on a baby dose of Parnate, and only a short time. My withdrawals were about 2 days. Zyprexa for 8 years, the withdrawals were about 3 months. So there is quite a wide span of how long it can take. All that bizarre stuff that happens when stopping an ssrr, well, with zoloft it took me 2 months for all that to be gone.
I know all the reasoning and logic behind memantine. Just my opinion, but I would not place any significant bets on it being very helpful.
The maoi effect of parnate takes about a week to two to wear off, for the mao enzymes to recover. You could maybe lessen the withdrawals by taking a baby dose once every 3 days or so. The time period of your weaning process looks too fast to me. Or at least, there is no way I could wean off any med that fast or in that big of steps. The withdrawals and all the bizarre stuff are just too intense for me if I don't take it slow and easy on the way down in dose.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 26, 2012, at 5:46:12
In reply to Re: how long does MAOI withdrawal last?, posted by Resistant on August 25, 2012, at 17:11:53
> So you had no luck with Parnate either ? Well I'm at day 4 since I stopped Parnate completely. I did it pretty quick (almost cold turkey) and had leg sweats on the second night and a massive increase in dreams. I wasted 3 months on this stuff so I just want to be done with it ASAP. I feel it's all out of my system now and will start Pristiq tomorrow. The 2 week washout period is extreme and I have no intention waiting that long.
>
> Why have you chosen Memantine ? Did you think of trying Nardil ?
>It was helpful for depression and motivation, but caused anxiety, insomnia and agitation. I just kept raising my Klonopin dose to counteract the insomnia, but the toll it was taking on my system was too great. I just felt burned out from the lack of decent sleep.
I've chosen Memantine because I recall it having a positive, quick-acting effect on anxiety when I tried it 3 years ago. Since it's benign, and is showing some success is treatment-resistant cases, I see no harm in trying it. My OCD and anxiety are so crippling that I am borderline-agoraphobic, I can't hold down a job, move out of home, do much at all. Other than the obvious setbacks of depression and ADD (which prevent me from furthering my education or socializing), it's the OCD that's kept me trapped in my parents' house, unable to work, live an independent existence. But a lot of anti-anxiety regiments affect my cognition and 'joie de vivre' too greatly to go out and live a life.
Last night, I had a fight with my parents. I'd been trying to educate them on OCD, but my mom said she is sick of trying to understand me and rerouted every claim regarding my suffering back to her (how much SHE'S suffered watching me) or told me I'm wallowing, or compared me to others with more SERIOUS afflictions like cancer, etc. My dad just sat back idly and parroted her claims as usual. Maybe the Parnate withdrawal is amplifying everything, but it's just made me feel horrendous. I've sat in my room for the past 12 hours doing nothing but lying in bed and staring at the wall, wishing I was dead or free from them. I don't qualify for disability, my friends have said that they couldn't really let me stay longer than a day or two, and I'm too scared of the public hospital system.
If I can get my OCD even marginally under control, maybe I can get a part-time job and leave. Memantine seems like a non-invasive solution. I know it's a long shot and research is iffy, but the Yale psych who posts on the OCD yahoo support group(and who was involved in at least one of the case studies on pubmed) uses it regularly now with few/no side-effects.
If I spend another year in my parents' house, I know I'll be dead. That isn't some threat or cry for help. It's a reality, they (in addition to the OCD and everything else) have sapped my life of any worth or meaning, despite the ambition I once had.
If I go on Nardil, it will be months waiting for an effect, more effort trying to combat insomnia, etc. I tried it before for 3 months and stopped because it helped depression but did nothing for anxiety, and I couldn't sleep, nor am I able to tolerate most sleep aids (short-acting benzos, Seroquel [akathisia] etc.). I also don't think it will help my ADD at all (which I guess shouldn't be a priority right now) . I guess if Memantine fails or whatever, then I would try Nardil again in a hospital setting perhaps.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 26, 2012, at 19:16:50
In reply to Re: how long does MAOI withdrawal last? » Resistant, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 26, 2012, at 5:46:12
Hi ggg, sorry to hear of your troubles, I'm not sure what you've tried, but i have a couple of sugestions
Mirtazapine + Effexor (say 30-45mg mirtazapine at night, and 150-300mg of Effexor in the morning, plus a benzo)Sertraline + Reboxetine (say 100-200mg sertraline in the morning, and 4-6mg of reboxetine twice a day, plus a benzo)
Sertraline as above plus nortriptyline 100-150mg at night, guided by blood levels, plus a benzo
as a last resort, Nardil plus nortriptyline plus a benzo,
In addition to any of the above, 1mg of risperidone can provide a good measure of extra benifit at low cost with minimal side effects
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 26, 2012, at 19:49:07
In reply to Re: how long does MAOI withdrawal last?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 26, 2012, at 19:16:50
I guess what I'm saying is, dont give up - push the enevelope, try different med combos - your place in the sun is out there buddy.
If you ever need a sounding board, I'm ahppy to swap contact info
cheers
Jon
Posted by AlexCanada on August 30, 2012, at 15:25:26
In reply to Lou's response- » g_g_g_unit, posted by Lou Pilder on August 25, 2012, at 8:04:02
You constantly have nothing to contribute and keep posting the most negative comments associated with medication.
> > I'm in hell. I'd forgotten how bad MAOI withdrawal (Parnate) is. I tapered down 10mg every 3 days from 60mg. Took last dose a week ago. Since then, I've felt totally wired, depersonalized, suicidal, agitated, sick (flu-like symptoms) and, worst of all, cannot sleep properly.
> >
> > I was taking 1.5mg of Klonopin at night while on Parnate but it didn't do anything for sleep or anxiety anyway (and felt depressogenic) so I cut back to 1.25mg as well, but I don't feel like that's particularly contributing to my symptoms.
> >
> > Anyway, I have a masochistic streak, so tend to just push through this kind of stuff rather than bridge/complicate things with more Rx's. Waiting for p-doc to return from vacation and start Memantine on September 7th.
> >
> > Taurine is helping the daytime anxiety. Just wish I could sleep. If I add 5mg of Valium to the Klonopin, I'm set, which my p-doc said to continue with, but isn't withdrawing from two benzos (at whatever point in the future) kinda asking for trouble (not to mention the conflicting half-lives, etc.)?
>
> g_g_g
> You wrote,[...I'm in hell...withdrawal...suicidal...worst of all...withdrawaling from..benzos..asking for trouble...].
>
>
Posted by papillon2 on August 31, 2012, at 6:53:59
In reply to Stop spamming the board! » Lou Pilder, posted by AlexCanada on August 30, 2012, at 15:25:26
Hi Alex,
Some people like Scott are happy to challenge Lou's posts, but I feel like I get nowhere except angry, so my solution is just not to open them. Realising that I didn't have to respond or stew over things was surprisingly freeing.
I will admit that part of me feels like this somehow makes me complicit in hurting people who, like me, need to take medication and have made informed decision to do so. I guess I just hope that my posts of encouragement and support somehow make a difference.
We don't always have to agree with each other.
Papillon
> You constantly have nothing to contribute and keep posting the most negative comments associated with medication.
This is the end of the thread.
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