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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 13:47:22
In reply to Context, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 13:31:34
> One person says it's BS (me), one person calls it "made up", one person calls it "real". Makes ya wonder.
>
> It seems that the "real" crowd not only ignores the context, but adamantly REFUSES to take it into account. What context? The context of the made-up constraints/expectations/etc. of our so-called civilized society. If one doesn't easily fit into and comply with mainstream standards, one is likely to be labeled as abnormal or diseased, and in need of treatment. So, which is made up - the disease or the narrow definition of "normal".
>
> Bottom line is: with ADHD and many other "diseases", the context cannot be ignored, or you're only working with part of the picture. Is "help" only limited to facilitating fitting into the mainstream?
I apologize. I am clueless as to what is the meaning of anything you have written here. I am even more clueless as to how what you have written would enhance the life of my friend with ADHD.What do you think of Len Adler's stuff? Honestly.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 14:00:24
In reply to Re: Context - What? » ron1953, posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 13:47:22
Scott, I find it quite telling that you don't understand what I'm saying. And I really don't know how to enlighten you further. I really wish I could.
Perhaps an analogy might help: Masturbation might be considered a disease in a sexually-repressive culture.
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 14:16:04
In reply to Re: Context - What? » ron1953, posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 13:47:22
Hi Ron1953.
> What do you think of Len Adler's stuff? Honestly.
Never mind. I know of his work only because of my dealings with the staff at NYU. I was just wondering if you came across his name in your research. You can look him up on Medline if you wish.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Adler%20LA[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=22537184
Dr. Adler also wrote a book called, "Scattered Minds: Hope and Help for Adults with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder". I haven't read it, but I imagine it is more accessible than the Medline stuff.
I don't know upon what you base your conclusions that ADHD is "BS". Would you care to be specific?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 14:17:37
In reply to Re: Context - What?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 14:00:24
> Scott, I find it quite telling that you don't understand what I'm saying. And I really don't know how to enlighten you further. I really wish I could.
>
> Perhaps an analogy might help: Masturbation might be considered a disease in a sexually-repressive culture.Ah. Why didn't you say so in the first place.
You like to edify us all with your opinions. Why stop now?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 14:37:42
In reply to Context, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 13:31:34
> > I don't know upon what you base your conclusions that ADHD is "BS". Would you care to be specific?
I really look forward to your answering this question and edifying us further.
How might you advise someone on Psycho-Babble who has just been diagnosed by their doctor with ADHD and prescribed Focalin? Do you tell them that their diagnosis of ADHD is "BS"? In your research of ADHD, what, specifically, has led you to the conclusion that it is "BS"?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 15:07:18
In reply to does it matter?, posted by Christ_empowered on July 21, 2012, at 15:39:36
> I have a relative who takes lamictal+low-dose adderall xr. The diagnosis is adhd, but its really effective for depression--the kind of intense depression that makes you stupid.
That is an intriguing combination. I believe that both drugs serve to increase limbic dopaminergic activity, albeit in completely different ways. I'll have to tell my doctor about that.
> I think instead of asking "do I have ADHD" (or any other diagnosis...), it'd be best to ask "do I have problems that would substantially benefit from this drug/these drugs?"
For now, sometimes things have to occur in reverse. You guess first, treat second, and diagnose last. People are working on establishing reliable biomarkers for diagnostics, but that might be just a few years away from becoming part of mainstream medical practice. There is also PET and fSPECT scans, but they are still too expensive to consider as step one of a diagnostic algorithm. I remember being incensed when the folks at Columbia wanted to diagnose me based upon my drug responses. I thought they knew enough to produce a definitive diagnosis before beginning treatment. They even used the dexamethasone suppression test and the tyramine conjugation test on me. I tested positive on both. The rest is a long story, but suffice it say, their limitations motivated me to take my first trip to the medical library.
They did the best they could.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 16:54:34
In reply to Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by Raisinb on July 20, 2012, at 17:52:51
I have an opinion that it's *often* BS, not a blanket conclusion. Also, I'm not familiar with Adler.
The lure of the empirical scientific approach is understandable, but it often fails miserably when it comes to the human psyche. Think of the android character, Data, from Star Trek, whose computer brain, however complex, could not understand human emotion, humor, etc.. The scientific approach often employed in psychiatry and psychopharmacology has its limitations, and is mostly based on acceptance of the status quo of standard academic teachings, conventional wisdom and accepted beliefs. Ir rarely, if ever, goes outside of the box.
Scott, I haven't studied ADHD, but I observe. And by the way, if I challenged you to support your beliefs, I think you'd be hard-pressed to do so, aside from citing other people's work. And I'm not saying you're wrong; just that there's more than just cold fact and statistic involved, and it's difficult to qualify or quantify.
What would my advice to an ADHD patient be? I'd advise that they analyze the ENTIRE situation, especially in regard to their purported problem versus assumptions and expectations of others. I was a programmer for twenty years, and knew many poor-to mediocre programmers who were diagnosed with ADHD. Their poor performance was NOT because of ADHD (in my opinion, of course); it was simply a bad match between their true talents/desires and the career itself. The job demands a great deal of organizational skill, which these folks simply didn't have. It wasn't pathology; just a bad match. So, the question is, should they be treated for ADHD, or maybe consider another career - one that they're better suited for? Or BOTH? My point is to look at the big picture.
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 19:56:33
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 16:54:34
> I have an opinion that it's *often* BS, not a blanket conclusion.
That is not what you said. Your words indicated that you had come to a blanket conclusion. Go read them.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120718/msgs/1021860.html
> Also, I'm not familiar with Adler.
Okay.
What facts do you use to support your opinion?
> The lure of the empirical scientific approach is understandable,
The lure of knowledge understandable.
> but it often fails miserably when it comes to the human psyche.
What fails miserably, the scientific method? So, you are also going to opine against the validity of psychology experiments?
> Think of the android character, Data, from Star Trek,
I know he is one of your favorite metaphors.
> whose computer brain, however complex, could not understand human emotion, humor, etc..
You are wrong. It could very much understand all of those things. He would have displayed such understanding much sooner in the series had Dr. Noonien Soong not purposely withheld the emotion processor chip from Data's positronic brain. For you see, the loss of a very small locus of circuitry can affect a great deal of function. This may not be so different from ADHD.
> The scientific approach often employed in psychiatry and psychopharmacology has its limitations,
Name one.
> and is mostly based on acceptance of the status quo of standard academic teachings, conventional wisdom and accepted beliefs. Ir rarely, if ever, goes outside of the box.
Oh. What teachings and beliefs would you like to employ? Your own? Name one that relates to ADHD.
> Scott, I haven't studied ADHD, but I observe.What do you observe, specifically?
> And by the way, if I challenged you to support your beliefs, I think you'd be hard-pressed to do so,
What kind of support would you like to see?
> aside from citing other people's work.
Oh, I see. I only get to use my own work. Is that how you operate?
> What would my advice to an ADHD patient be?
>
> I'd advise that they analyze the ENTIRE situation, especially in regard to their purported problem versus assumptions and expectations of others.One can speak in such generalities when addressing many unrelated aspects of life. Would you care to amplify how you would go about applying these concepts to a new ADHD patient specifically?
I have a certain amount of confidence in my own observations of real people with ADHD. However, I have more confidence in the consensus of the hundreds of researchers and thousands of physicians who observe ADHD in the 8 million or so sufferers every day.
Where is the BS?
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 21:20:16
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD? » ron1953, posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 19:56:33
"Where is the BS?"
The phucking bullshitt is right here in this phucking board, where differing views are not welcome, and career mental health patients wish to stay just that.
Especially you, Snott
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 21:46:43
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 21:20:16
> "Where is the BS?"
>
> The phucking bullshitt is right here in this phucking board, where differing views are not welcome, and career mental health patients wish to stay just that.
>
> Especially you, Snott
:-)
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 22:10:37
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD? » ron1953, posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 21:46:43
I was 100% sure you'd be smugly pleased, douchebag. Very good at putting others on the defense, but a douchebag nonetheless. Both excellent skills if you were an attorney. But alas, you're just an online douchebag on an obscure web forum.
Posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 22:15:54
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 22:10:37
I remember seeing people like you in the schoolyard in grade school. They were really good at getting a rise out of other kids, making them cry, etc.. They're called bullies.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2012, at 22:20:37
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 21:20:16
The problem, in my opinion, is that you seem to be generally dismissive of the idea that people might have difficulties that may benefit from pharmacological treatment. And I hate meds!! Do you even take meds?
It's fine to be cynical, but being one has to accept that others' experiences are valid, and that there are just things that you don't know.
I'm sorry to say, that throughout this thread, what you just wrote was what I thought was your viewpoint all along. It comes through pretty clearly.
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 22:36:24
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 21:20:16
> "Where is the BS?"
>
> The phucking bullshitt is right here in this phucking board, where differing views are not welcome, and career mental health patients wish to stay just that.
>
> Especially you, Snott
Your "Context" post managed to get a rise out of me. Congratulations.You know, it occurred to me earlier that I never saw you write about your own mental health challenges and treatments. I imagine there must be something that attracted you to a mental health website. We now know that you don't believe that you suffer from ADHD as you have already been diagnosed as such. Would you like to share what it is that you do believe you suffer from? Perhaps it would improve communication.
As for me, I am quite happy that you referred to me as a mental *health* patient. Yup. The pursuit of improving my mental health will continue along with my pursuit of physical health.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 22:40:57
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 22:15:54
> I remember seeing people like you in the schoolyard in grade school. They were really good at getting a rise out of other kids, making them cry, etc.. They're called bullies.
Yup. Play the bully card. That's an easy way to dismiss me. You wouldn't be the first to use it, though.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 22:51:25
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 22:10:37
> I was 100% sure you'd be smugly pleased, douchebag. Very good at putting others on the defense, but a douchebag nonetheless. Both excellent skills if you were an attorney. But alas, you're just an online douchebag on an obscure web forum.
Oh, I suppose my smiley emoticon is more offensive than what you wrote in the post I replied to.
Guilty! If you haven't already noticed, I tend to be anti-anti. I don't think it is particularly productive to be anti-everything. To pronounce oneself as being anti-establishment so that one may call himself a free-thinker is a form of bondage as far as I am concerned.
Anyway, this is not a game to me. If you feel that I made for a good attorney, I must confess that it is not so much my debating skills that are so persuasive as it is my liberal use of the information that is currently available.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 23:07:10
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD? » ron1953, posted by SLS on July 22, 2012, at 22:51:25
It is a game for you, Snott, and it appears that winning is VERY important to you.
Now I'll just wait for that Gook bastard Bob to pop his yellow ass in and apply one of his silly blocking formulae.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2012, at 23:18:22
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 23:07:10
Holy sh*t!
Really??
No..,.
Really??
Posted by Raisinb on July 23, 2012, at 0:07:16
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD? » ron1953, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2012, at 23:18:22
I'm chronically disorganized and have bad credit simply because I don't pay attention to money and pay bills late, if at all. I don't make extravagant purchases or have a shopping addiction.
I'm very, very messy and have trouble keeping my house clean. I lose things all the time--student papers, keys, whatever you give me, I can lose it in thirty seconds.
On the other hand, I always did very well in school, but it wasn't because I was organized or did things on time. I procrastinated and did messy work and got by with intelligence.
I have never had trouble maintaining concentration while reading or doing something else I enjoy. In fact I'm pretty good at super focusing when reading, playing video games, or doing something I enjoy. Boring tasks, like grading papers, that's another story, but I don't know that anyone has a wonderful time getting through a stack of papers. This has impacted my work in my previous jobs. I have a pretty good memory for appointments and only forget them occasionally; use of my iPhone calendar helps, when I get myself together to use it.
I do have trouble getting started and staying focused on long term, open ended projects. For instance, I should be publishing to progress in my field, but I have so many different ideas and so many different ways to go about them I get bogged down in actually getting started.
My decision is really whether to try the meds or not, since it still seems its a matter of diagnosis by prescription.
Posted by jane d on July 23, 2012, at 1:38:28
In reply to More detail about my symptoms..., posted by Raisinb on July 23, 2012, at 0:07:16
> My decision is really whether to try the meds or not, since it still seems its a matter of diagnosis by prescription.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Or, for that matter, that it really matters if you have a diagnosis. That's just a way to make it easier to think about. Who cares if it 25 years from now your symptoms are classified ADHD or Bipolar XXVII or an allergy to cabbages?
I'm also seriously disorganized. I know I have many of the symptoms of ADD. (I'm both too sleepy and, ahem, too disorganized to describe them in more detail tonight.) I have no idea whether I should be diagnosed or not and I don't really care. But I tried stimulants and I did find them helpful.
If you try them you'll know very quickly whether they help you or not unlike antidepressants or mood stabilizers. So why not find out.
I also found some of the organizing tips I found in ADHD self help books useful.
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2012, at 2:57:50
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 23:07:10
> It is a game for you, Snott,
No, it is not, and you are not a mind reader.
> Now I'll just wait for that G**k bastard Bob to pop his yellow *ss in and apply one of his silly blocking formulae.
You know, I can hardly believe that you posted that. If you only knew what color I was...
I do think that it would be productive for you to improve your communications and connections with people here by disclosing what your mental health challenges are. It would be a lot easier for people to continue a dialog with you to know these things, especially after having written something so vile. Something is going on with you, and I think your doctors should know about it.
Good luck with all of that.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2012, at 3:44:47
In reply to More detail about my symptoms..., posted by Raisinb on July 23, 2012, at 0:07:16
Hi.
> My decision is really whether to try the meds or not, since it still seems its a matter of diagnosis by prescription.
Yup. Pretty much. I don't think the imaging tests are ready for prime-time yet.
I tend to agree with Jane D. If it were me, I would try the medication, but also look into "coaching". I don't know much about it. I will be interested to know how your doctor presents the risks/benefits or advantages/disadvantages of these drugs.
Establishing a differential diagnosis for ADHD can be very difficult for any doctor. And yes, it very often is comorbid with bipolar disorder and hard to separate out.
Have you taken a look at the symptom checklists that appear on the Internet? They aren't meant to be a substitute for a clinician's diagnosis, but might give you an indication of whether or not getting one is indicated. I guess that is a moot point for you at this juncture, though.
http://www.addcoach4u.com/symptomsofadhd.html
I imagine you have already done quite a bit of your own research. You seem to have a good handle on what you experience and do a great job detailing your symptoms/challenges.
- Scott
Posted by zazenducke on July 23, 2012, at 10:19:49
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD?, posted by ron1953 on July 22, 2012, at 23:07:10
we all loooooook the saaaaaaaame
God is watching us
God is watching usSir I believe under intense provocation you may have accidentally insulted all of SE Asia.
congratulations on being human!
Posted by ron1953 on July 23, 2012, at 11:05:44
In reply to Re: Experience with adult ADHD? » ron1953, posted by SLS on July 23, 2012, at 2:57:50
Scott, it's adorable that you think you can diagnose me on the internet.
In all actuality, I do fine. I'm just a grumpy old bastard who simply ought not be playing in this particular sandbox, lest I dig up snotty little turds like you. I can find plenty of delusional dingbats elsewhere if I want.
Now, I think I'll go back to the real world and make some music and do some other way-more useful stuff, and leave the amateur psychobullshit to you and your minions.
BTW: speaking of amateur diagnoses, I suspect you have Aspergers.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2012, at 19:44:49
In reply to does it matter?, posted by Christ_empowered on July 21, 2012, at 15:39:36
> I think instead of asking "do I have ADHD" (or any other diagnosis...), it'd be best to ask "do I have problems that would substantially benefit from this drug/these drugs?"
I like that way of thinking about it. My mother has had a tremor for years, and is responding to a drug for Parkinsons. She's quite upset about being put on the drug since she doesn't think she has Parkinsons. Maybe she doesn't. But what she does have is a tremor that responds to that drug. It really doesn't matter what it's called. It matters that she can get most of her food in her mouth, dial a phone, and write.
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