![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Frequentfryer on June 5, 2012, at 11:13:58
Well I'm guessing a xenobiologic is like a synthetic drug, whatever. You once asked me why am I taking Backlofen, basically Backlofen is a GABA-B agonist & I have heard from other ppl its quite dopeaminergic (in some way).... Anyways I find it 75% better then any other antiD... Welll I dunno, I just don't have a tollerance to it it makes me feel great but a week later I need more, like all anti-d's (including phenelzine) it only lasts 2 weeks.
Im guessing Gabapentin would have a huge cross tollerance.. (same thing as baclofen) [Baclofenn is 80% cheaper in Australia though..,
MM just thought u might like to know if you didn't already.
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2012, at 15:05:12
In reply to SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by Frequentfryer on June 5, 2012, at 11:13:58
Thanks!
Much appreciated...
I hope that life isn't too much of a struggle for you these days.
Today is an "off" day for me, but I have been feeling better recently. The addition of prazosin has helped a great deal. If I should plateau or the rate of improvement be deemed to be unsatisfactory, I am to try adding memantine and/or Topamax. I am also considering rTMS treatments to accelerate my improvement. I am guessing that rTMS will be necessary to bring me to full remission. I would like to get this thing resolved by the end of the year.
Currently:
Parnate 80 mg
nortriptyline 150 mg
Lamictal 200 mg
Abilify 10 mg
lithium 300 mg
prazosin 12 mgBe well.
- Scott
> Well I'm guessing a xenobiologic is like a synthetic drug, whatever. You once asked me why am I taking Backlofen, basically Backlofen is a GABA-B agonist & I have heard from other ppl its quite dopeaminergic (in some way).... Anyways I find it 75% better then any other antiD... Welll I dunno, I just don't have a tollerance to it it makes me feel great but a week later I need more, like all anti-d's (including phenelzine) it only lasts 2 weeks.
>
> Im guessing Gabapentin would have a huge cross tollerance.. (same thing as baclofen) [Baclofenn is 80% cheaper in Australia though..,
>
> MM just thought u might like to know if you didn't already.
Posted by michaelskytree on June 5, 2012, at 18:09:56
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » Frequentfryer, posted by SLS on June 5, 2012, at 15:05:12
Hi,
I was just browsing this site and reading about Ketamine in particular, but when I came to your message and found that your list of medications is very similar to mine, I thought I just had to register and write a post.
I'm currently taking Prozac, Selegeline, Abilify and I recently dropped memantine. Before I started Abilify I was on Parnate and Amytriptaline and lamictal, all of which had pooped out on me.
In twenty five years of treatment I have found only one drug that hasn't pooped out, and that is the Abilify. Unfortunately, I've gained a lot of weight on it (20lbs) and it makes me very dumb, although when I have been able to reduce the dose to 7.5 mgs I start to gain some focus and memory. I have mostly been on 15mgs.
I've also been debating adding the Lithium. I have tried it once in the past but found that it eliminated the "small" antidepressant response I was still getting from my other drugs. Still, the research on Lithium is so compelling as an augment and as an antisuicide pill that I feel I should try it again.
Any comments?
With warm regards,
Mike
Posted by SLS on June 6, 2012, at 6:54:50
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by michaelskytree on June 5, 2012, at 18:09:56
> Hi,
Hi Mike.
> I was just browsing this site and reading about Ketamine in particular, but when I came to your message and found that your list of medications is very similar to mine, I thought I just had to register and write a post.
>
> I'm currently taking Prozac, Selegeline, Abilify and I recently dropped memantine. Before I started Abilify I was on Parnate and Amytriptaline and lamictal, all of which had pooped out on me.How long did this treatment work before it pooped-out?
> In twenty five years of treatment I have found only one drug that hasn't pooped out, and that is the Abilify. Unfortunately, I've gained a lot of weight on it (20lbs) and it makes me very dumb, although when I have been able to reduce the dose to 7.5 mgs I start to gain some focus and memory. I have mostly been on 15mgs.
At 20 mg, Abilify affected me cognitively and blunted my affect. At 10 mg, these things are no longer a problem. Did you notice any memory impairments with Abilfy?
> I've also been debating adding the Lithium.
For me, I am prepared to take lithium 300 mg indefinitely. Besides helping to reduced the magnitude of mood fluctuations, I am hoping it reduces my risk of developing Alzheimers, a disease known to occur more often with people who have an affective disorder.
> I have tried it once in the past but found that it eliminated the "small" antidepressant response I was still getting from my other drugs.
What dosage of lithium were you taking?
Higher dosages of lithium flatten my affect and make me feel passive. The anti-suicide potential of lithium might rely on its pro-passivity and anti-aggression properties. Unfortunately, I have not yet encountered a study that seeks to establish a dosage range for best results for preventing suicide. Is 300 mg sufficient to prevent suicide, or does one need to take the traditional dosage range used in bipolar disorder of 900 - 1500 mg?
> Still, the research on Lithium is so compelling as an augment and as an antisuicide pill that I feel I should try it again.
If suicidality is an ongoing, chronic problem, lithium might be the best first choice. If, however, your suicidality occurs as acute epidodes, Zyprexa could be a viable option and could be taken on an as-needed basis.
- Scott
Posted by brklyn2311 on June 6, 2012, at 9:55:54
In reply to SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by Frequentfryer on June 5, 2012, at 11:13:58
you know bacoflen hits ghb receptors,prob your only other substitute would be ghb itself lol or phenibutt,but all three ghb,bacoflen,and phenibutt a legal over the counter supplement are very similiar in structure and behaviour .
Posted by Frequentfryer on June 6, 2012, at 14:03:15
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » Frequentfryer, posted by SLS on June 5, 2012, at 15:05:12
Yeah I'm doing good thanks Scott.
I started taking Parnate again for about the 8th time and I am having a complete different reaction to it then normal. Normally after 56 hours at just like 30mgs I get an extremley good antidepressant effect and extremly low blood preasure for 2 weeks. But this time my BP is fine and I think it is giving me a decent mood lift.. But since it is not giving my any side effects I have cranked up the Dose to 100mg's (I way 110kg's)..
We will see how it goes.
I'm scared though because the last 2 times I took Nardil (for like the 15th time) it did nothing. Nardil has been my savior many a times....... But when Parnte and Baklofen Poops on me I dunno what Im going to do. That will be the day when someone defeats Poop-Out.That is the phucken holy grail Defeating Poop Out.
> Thanks!
>
> Much appreciated...
>
> I hope that life isn't too much of a struggle for you these days.
>
> Today is an "off" day for me, but I have been feeling better recently. The addition of prazosin has helped a great deal. If I should plateau or the rate of improvement be deemed to be unsatisfactory, I am to try adding memantine and/or Topamax. I am also considering rTMS treatments to accelerate my improvement. I am guessing that rTMS will be necessary to bring me to full remission. I would like to get this thing resolved by the end of the year.
>
> Currently:
>
> Parnate 80 mg
> nortriptyline 150 mg
> Lamictal 200 mg
> Abilify 10 mg
> lithium 300 mg
> prazosin 12 mg
>
> Be well.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> > Well I'm guessing a xenobiologic is like a synthetic drug, whatever. You once asked me why am I taking Backlofen, basically Backlofen is a GABA-B agonist & I have heard from other ppl its quite dopeaminergic (in some way).... Anyways I find it 75% better then any other antiD... Welll I dunno, I just don't have a tollerance to it it makes me feel great but a week later I need more, like all anti-d's (including phenelzine) it only lasts 2 weeks.
> >
> > Im guessing Gabapentin would have a huge cross tollerance.. (same thing as baclofen) [Baclofenn is 80% cheaper in Australia though..,
> >
> > MM just thought u might like to know if you didn't already.
>
>
Posted by michaelskytree on June 6, 2012, at 15:55:32
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » michaelskytree, posted by SLS on June 6, 2012, at 6:54:50
Hi Scott,
Thanks for responding to my email. You asked how long it took the MAO-B and Trycyclic combo to poop out, and I have to say there is something I haven't figured out about that. 25 years ago when it all began for me, I had a doctor, who I now see was quite visionary. He eventually put me on a combo of Nardil and a trycyclic, which worked for me. Looking back, I can say that that combo didn't seem to poop out. I wasn't a functional human being on that combo, but I don't think it pooped out-- whereas the Parnate and Trycylclic combo pooped out fairly quickly. I still don't know what to make of that.
As for the Abilify, it causes severe memory impairment, both short term and for recent events. In fact, I just hit my weight limit and so I have dumped it for Ziprasidone. I have tried this exhchange last summer as well, but it wasn't successful. So I'll see if I can make it work this time.
I am still curious about your experience with Lithium. Has it actually worked to augment your antidepressants, or does it work against them? Does it prevent major relapses in any way?
By the way, my suicidality is not an issue for me at present. It's only during relapses.
Looking forward to any thoughts you have on the subject.
I also looked up the Phenibut, mentioned above, but doesn't seem to be much support for its use in major depression.
Mike
Posted by Frequentfryer on June 6, 2012, at 15:59:57
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by brklyn2311 on June 6, 2012, at 9:55:54
Yeah I know.
Pregablin is probably hell cross tolerant with Baklofen aswell hey.
Aparently Modafnil + Baklofen is a wickid rare combo, I find Baklofen potentials allot of things. Baklofen + memantine + pramipexole.
I had a huge list of cool gaba things but my computer crashed, I'm trying to restore the file.> you know bacoflen hits ghb receptors,prob your only other substitute would be ghb itself lol or phenibutt,but all three ghb,bacoflen,and phenibutt a legal over the counter supplement are very similiar in structure and behaviour.
Posted by SLS on June 6, 2012, at 18:47:53
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by michaelskytree on June 6, 2012, at 15:55:32
Keep an eye out for a drug called cariprazine. It is the second in a series of DA D2/D3 receptor partial agonists like Abilify. I will probably ask my doctor to allow me to crossover to cariprazine from Abilify in an attempt to avoid weight-gain and elevated triglycerides. Perhaps it will be a cleaner drug with respect to cognition and memory. It may not be, but I would regret it if I weren't to give cariprazine a try. It is currently in phase III investigation, and is due to be approved within a year.
- Scott
Posted by michaelskytree on June 7, 2012, at 13:59:13
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » brklyn2311, posted by Frequentfryer on June 6, 2012, at 15:59:57
> Yeah I know.
> Pregablin is probably hell cross tolerant with Baklofen aswell hey.
> Aparently Modafnil + Baklofen is a wickid rare combo, I find Baklofen potentials allot of things. Baklofen + memantine + pramipexole.I had a lot of luck with Pramipexole, it lasted almost half a year before it pooped out for me, and Modafinil is something that I use once or twice a week--it works very well as a stimulant and it has a slight antidepressant effect. Of course, I develop a tolerance very fast to it.
So you have found Baclofen to be a useful augmentor for antidepressants?
-Mike
Posted by novelagent on June 13, 2012, at 16:47:27
In reply to SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by Frequentfryer on June 5, 2012, at 11:13:58
baclofen? what's wrong with good old aricept?
> Well I'm guessing a xenobiologic is like a synthetic drug, whatever. You once asked me why am I taking Backlofen, basically Backlofen is a GABA-B agonist & I have heard from other ppl its quite dopeaminergic (in some way).... Anyways I find it 75% better then any other antiD... Welll I dunno, I just don't have a tollerance to it it makes me feel great but a week later I need more, like all anti-d's (including phenelzine) it only lasts 2 weeks.
>
> Im guessing Gabapentin would have a huge cross tollerance.. (same thing as baclofen) [Baclofenn is 80% cheaper in Australia though..,
>
> MM just thought u might like to know if you didn't already.
Posted by novelagent on June 13, 2012, at 16:54:05
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU, posted by michaelskytree on June 5, 2012, at 18:09:56
Mike,
Why hsven't you tried Latuda? It's new. I've been on it, but I switched to Invega Sustenna once-monthly because I preferred the control of not having to worry about forgetting my next dose all the time.
But if you're going to take an oral atypical, Latuda has the lowest cognitive impairment. It may, due to activation of the musacrinic receptors, may even be a cognitive enhancer, of subtle proportions... anyhow, I took it, and it definitely had the least affect on my cognition. It felt normal.
Just remember, with antipsychotics, you want to take it at the same time of day each day, or else (even by an hour's difference) you will get sleepy and feel mentally retarded. And if you want a cognitive boost / mood boost in general, I'd talk about adding Aricept to your regimen after switching to Latuda.
I'm not sure if you are taking it at the exact same time of day each day (it rakes about 4 days of doing so to get to feeling normal on it) but Abilify had very minimal cognitive impairment for me. Latuda was so subtle, though, it was like I was on nothing at all. I would get restless, but amphetamine solves that problem. Any atypical makes me restless, so you might be lucky and not get restless.
> Hi,
>
> I was just browsing this site and reading about Ketamine in particular, but when I came to your message and found that your list of medications is very similar to mine, I thought I just had to register and write a post.
>
> I'm currently taking Prozac, Selegeline, Abilify and I recently dropped memantine. Before I started Abilify I was on Parnate and Amytriptaline and lamictal, all of which had pooped out on me.
>
> In twenty five years of treatment I have found only one drug that hasn't pooped out, and that is the Abilify. Unfortunately, I've gained a lot of weight on it (20lbs) and it makes me very dumb, although when I have been able to reduce the dose to 7.5 mgs I start to gain some focus and memory. I have mostly been on 15mgs.
>
> I've also been debating adding the Lithium. I have tried it once in the past but found that it eliminated the "small" antidepressant response I was still getting from my other drugs. Still, the research on Lithium is so compelling as an augment and as an antisuicide pill that I feel I should try it again.
>
> Any comments?
>
> With warm regards,
>
> Mike
Posted by novelagent on June 13, 2012, at 17:05:50
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » michaelskytree, posted by SLS on June 6, 2012, at 18:47:53
I doubt these atypicals coming up are going to do much more than be a me-too next to Latuda. I would dump Abilify and go with Latuda-- I got weight gain from Zyprexa, but Latuda didn't give me any weight gain, and after switching over to Latuda from Risperdal, my blood work was perfect (on Risperdal, I had elevated prolactin levels).
I would switch to Latuda, maybe add Aricept. Aricept boosted my mood and cognition when I was on it. I'm going to go back on it. I thought it caused hypomania, but I think I was being too liberal with that word, especially since it didn't cause any hypomanic symptoms as long as I took my klonopin (1mg 3x/day). It's a fine drug, Aricept.
The research for Latuda is very solid. It's the only antipsychotic on the market with a robust body of evidence demonstrating it helps cognition, or at least doesn't dampen cognition, in head-to-head studies. A lot of research on this, especially for a new drug.
> Keep an eye out for a drug called cariprazine. It is the second in a series of DA D2/D3 receptor partial agonists like Abilify. I will probably ask my doctor to allow me to crossover to cariprazine from Abilify in an attempt to avoid weight-gain and elevated triglycerides. Perhaps it will be a cleaner drug with respect to cognition and memory. It may not be, but I would regret it if I weren't to give cariprazine a try. It is currently in phase III investigation, and is due to be approved within a year.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on June 14, 2012, at 1:28:04
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » SLS, posted by novelagent on June 13, 2012, at 17:05:50
> I doubt these atypicals coming up are going to do much more than be a me-too next to Latuda.
Any one atypical does not necessarily have to do much more than the others; just being different seems to be enough to produce a variability in treatment response. My bipolar depression responds better to Abilify than it does to Seroquel or Zyprexa. Adding Latuda did not help me at all. It felt very much like Geodon to me. For me, both Latuda and Geodon produced significant cognitive impairments that I did not see with the others. 5-HT7 antagonism might be an effective target for some people, but obviously not for all. Saphris is an interesting drug. It might be particularly well suited for treating bipolar mixed states. I don't see that happening with Latuda yet. It is suppose to be evaluated for this purpose soon, though.
> I would switch to Latuda, maybe add Aricept.
Aricept exacerbated my depression. Pro-cholinergics aren't for everyone. They can be depressing. Depression is listed as a possible side effect. However, I know one person for whom it produced a robust antidepressant effect.
> Aricept boosted my mood and cognition when I was on it.
This is a good thing. I hope it works equally well for you this time around.
> The research for Latuda is very solid.
How so? What, in particular, does the research indicate?
> It's the only antipsychotic on the market with a robust body of evidence demonstrating it helps cognition,
Again, for me, Latuda produced robust cognitive impairments and some dissociation. By comparison, Zyprexa helped my cognition and produced a significant antidepressant effect. Some people report thinking more clearly on Zyprexa, more so than with the other AAPs. Unfortunately, this is not the case with everyone.
> > Keep an eye out for a drug called cariprazine. It is the second in a series of DA D2/D3 receptor partial agonists like Abilify. I will probably ask my doctor to allow me to crossover to cariprazine from Abilify in an attempt to avoid weight-gain and elevated triglycerides. Perhaps it will be a cleaner drug with respect to cognition and memory. It may not be, but I would regret it if I weren't to give cariprazine a try. It is currently in phase III investigation, and is due to be approved within a year.
I bet cariprazine and Abilify display some potential for treating cocaine addiction - much like buprenorphine aids in the treatment of heroin addiction. The key here is partial agonism at the relevant receptors; D2/D3 dopamine receptors for cocaine and µ opioid receptors for heroin.
- Scott
Posted by novelagent on June 14, 2012, at 7:38:57
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » novelagent, posted by SLS on June 14, 2012, at 1:28:04
> I bet cariprazine and Abilify display some potential for treating cocaine addiction - much like buprenorphine aids in the treatment of heroin addiction. The key here is partial agonism at the relevant receptors; D2/D3 dopamine receptors for cocaine and µ opioid receptors for heroin.
>Abilify increased meth use in one study... beyond that, it's typically weak. The literature typically lists a host of meds that do nothing, and then conclude with positive, cautious results about replacement therapy of a stimulant like dexedrine for cocaine or meth addiction. Abilify has been studied in meth studies a lot, anyhow.
Shire's patent on Vyvanse includes the part about the dose plateauing shortly after reaching the therapeutic range (it plateaus at 200mg, after which, of course, it doesn't bind to lyseine, and the active part isn't metabolized as d-amphetamine past 200mg).
Unfortunately, even therapeutic ranges of amphetamine are prone for people to call "abuse" if the right intention doesn't seem to be in it... it becomes almost a moral thing, with people questioning how pure one's intention is, nevermind the science. I have difficulty calling something "abuse" if it's within the therapeutic range, regardless of whether an addict *thinks* he/she is "abusing it."
An addict's likability for Vyvanse is lower, but if they feel a bit chipper, they're still going to call a therapeutic feeling a "high," and as a result, well, we can't give people something that makes them feel "high," so all this research on substitution therapy with d-amphetamine is mostly an academic exercise-- what doctors are actually practicing it in the real world? Probably not many.
Posted by SLS on June 14, 2012, at 8:17:23
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » SLS, posted by novelagent on June 14, 2012, at 7:38:57
> > I bet cariprazine and Abilify display some potential for treating cocaine addiction - much like buprenorphine aids in the treatment of heroin addiction. The key here is partial agonism at the relevant receptors; D2/D3 dopamine receptors for cocaine and µ opioid receptors for heroin.
> >
>
> Abilify increased meth use in one study...Do you recall where you saw this?
> beyond that, it's typically weak.
In what respect? Pharmacologically, Abilify is a potent D2/D3 receptor ligand, having a high binding affinity. If you are referring to its potential to effectively treat schizophrenia, I haven't investigated it. However, I am not sure it would be the best choice when positive symptoms predominate. That is just a guess, though. For bipolar disorder, the combination of Abilify and Lamictal provide greater prophylaxis against relapse than either drug alone (as detailed in the current NIMH Bipolar Network Newsletter).
> The literature typically lists a host of meds that do nothing,
Shhhh. Please don't let my poor brain find out this secret. I wouldn't want to jeopardize my current placebo response to it.
Seriously, I would be very interested to see the literature that you allude to.
My comments about Abilify and addiction were limited to cocaine use, not amphetamine use:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21524261
There is this, though:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21373790
Obviously, there is not yet a consensus regarding the potential for Abilify to treat cocaine use. However, that Abiify can blunt the effects of cocaine is not questioned.
Another way to blunt the effects of psychostimulants and cocaine is to administer prazosin.
I think we are in agreement that paper theories are often of little value when evaluating the utility of psychotropic drugs.
- Scott
Posted by michaelskytree on June 14, 2012, at 15:24:58
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » michaelskytree, posted by novelagent on June 13, 2012, at 16:54:05
> Mike,
>
> Why hsven't you tried Latuda? It's new. I've been on it, but I switched to Invega Sustenna once-monthly because I preferred the control of not having to worry about forgetting my next dose all the time.
>
> But if you're going to take an oral atypical, Latuda has the lowest cognitive impairment. It may, due to activation of the musacrinic receptors, may even be a cognitive enhancer, of subtle proportions... anyhow, I took it, and it definitely had the least affect on my cognition. It felt normal.
>
> Just remember, with antipsychotics, you want to take it at the same time of day each day, or else (even by an hour's difference) you will get sleepy and feel mentally retarded. And if you want a cognitive boost / mood boost in general, I'd talk about adding Aricept to your regimen after switching to Latuda.
>
> I'm not sure if you are taking it at the exact same time of day each day (it rakes about 4 days of doing so to get to feeling normal on it) but Abilify had very minimal cognitive impairment for me. Latuda was so subtle, though, it was like I was on nothing at all. I would get restless, but amphetamine solves that problem. Any atypical makes me restless, so you might be lucky and not get restless.-----------------
I had no idea amphetamine is a treatment for akathisia--I'll have to give that a try. Cogentin certainly doesn't seem to help much. Still, I develop a tolerance very very quickly to amphetamine (along with pretty much everything else).I looked around the web about Latuda, and it certainly seems that lots of people are finding it to have a significant antidepressant effect. Unfortunately, it's not available in Canada, and it is a very expensive drug.
I've gone back to Ziprasidone, and the weight gain from Abilify is melting off of me. I'm pretty sure however that they both cause the same amount of cognitive impairment.
Also, a few weeks ago I recieved some Stablon in the mail. I have been very curious about that drug, and it has given me a couple of good weeks. It may also be pooping out already.
One thing abvout Stablon, I added it to Prozac. The idea that they are opposites and would cancel each other out is too simplistic. I know from experience that a lot of what passes for science in terms of receptors is a myth. I have found little predictability for what a drug is going to do. It doesn't even seem to matter what neurotransmitter they activate--the antidepressant effect is mostly the same, after a few weeks at least.
I think its time to give up the neurotransmitter theory. Apparently Stablon has multiple impacts on the brain.
Mike
Posted by novelagent on June 14, 2012, at 16:44:11
In reply to Re: SLS.. An awsome xenobiologic that U DONT KNOW ABOU » novelagent, posted by SLS on June 14, 2012, at 8:17:23
> > > I bet cariprazine and Abilify display some potential for treating cocaine addiction - much like buprenorphine aids in the treatment of heroin addiction. The key here is partial agonism at the relevant receptors; D2/D3 dopamine receptors for cocaine and µ opioid receptors for heroin.
> > >
> >
> > Abilify increased meth use in one study...
>
> Do you recall where you saw this?
>
> > beyond that, it's typically weak.
>It wasn't on cocaine, it was a study reviewing methamphetamine research. It was Abilify 15mg, and it was reported in a review article, going over many of the treatments used today. It might have been for cocaine as well, I'm not sure.
Whatever works, more power to you. I didn't know this was personally affecting you; I for some reason thought you had just an academic interest. There was an interesting title of a letter I couldn't read, as I don't have access to databases, but it was on "brain repair" and cognitive enhancers for helpung addicts recover from stimulant abuse.
All I know is, I took Abilify for a summer and a semester, so like 8 months. I made a point never to take more of the stimulant than I was prescribed in all of that time, because I didn't want to mess up my wiring-- not even if it was for an all-nighter. In fact, I made a rule for myself not to do all-nighters for all of that time, which was for me unheard of-- most of my papers were done as all-nighters at that point in my college life... it was sad.
Anyhow, I just remember feeling like I could take on the world, and afterwards, for a few months maybe after I had stopped taking the Aricept, I remember not taking my stimulant medication for 3 days and still feeling normal. That's unheard of for me-- I normally would go into a deep anhedonic state, sleeping for the first 3 days all day while off it.
So it did some long-term brain repair, I know that. I just took it for that 8 months, as was my intent, because I just wanted to repair my brain from residual cognitive impairment from depression. I wasn't depressed anymore, but I felt I could use some optimization of my brain to get back to where I was before more.
> In what respect? Pharmacologically, Abilify is a potent D2/D3 receptor ligand, having a high binding affinity. If you are referring to its potential to effectively treat schizophrenia,
>No, Abilify is a powerful antipsychotic, it's just that the review article I read claimed it wasn't very effective, but now that I think of it, I think it mentioned it was only found it was used in one study.
One of the major problems of drug abuse research, however, is that it's hard to tell apart whether the group being researched is just happening to be well-motivated or not, and it's also hard to distinguish just how severely addicted someone is compared to others. Expectation of drug effect is tricky-- what exactly does "working" mean? Does it mean your life is 100% back to normal, like it was before drug addiction? That's unrealistic for any drug, so if patients are given that suggestion somehow in the course of the study, they'll of course fail. If they get counseled, and told by therapists as part of a CBT component of the study that the drug obly can do so much, even if it does work-- well, they might be inclined to do a bit better than placebo, because they work with perhaps whatever minimal advantage the drug offers them, bolstering that difference to their advantage.
I'm like you when it comes to questioning studies that claim to say something "doesn't work" flat out by saying it's "ineffective" when it comes to cognitive enhancement studies for schizophrenia. Is Aricept going to transform someone who's unable to give you a coherent sentence at the state hospital, and is drooling at the mouth from clozapine? Is it going to make that person awesome again? No, but it's also absurd that that would be conidered the marker for "effective."
Effective should mean a few points better on a cognitive battery test, but it's been found that motivation plays a huge factor in those tests, so if someone's not feeling extra motivated, they're not going to accurately reflect the improvement the drug gave. I have difficulty believing, on a certain level, some of the benefits I had from Aricept can even be quantified, exactly. It made things just feel effortless sometimes, and helped my poetic faculties. But for all I know, I would have had no improvement on some stupid, simple test like the stroop test (doubtful-- I think my processing speed increased).
But keep in mind, I was also on an amphetamine while on Aricept (Desoxyn)-- so the two combined to give a unique effect, bolstering each other's effects. I had to take less of each med as a result, even.
I haven't investigated it. However, I am not sure it would be the best choice when positive symptoms predominate. That is just a guess, though. For bipolar disorder, the combination of Abilify and Lamictal provide greater prophylaxis against relapse than either drug alone (as detailed in the current NIMH Bipolar Network Newsletter).
>
> > The literature typically lists a host of meds that do nothing,
>
> Shhhh. Please don't let my poor brain find out this secret. I wouldn't want to jeopardize my current placebo response to it.
>
> Seriously, I would be very interested to see the literature that you allude to.
>"amphetamine cognitive enhancer" "amphetamine donazepil (sp)" should be a start. Or cocaine donazepil, or cocaine cognitive enhancer, cognitive dysfunction, in medline.
> My comments about Abilify and addiction were limited to cocaine use, not amphetamine use:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21524261
>
> There is this, though:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21373790
>
> Obviously, there is not yet a consensus regarding the potential for Abilify to treat cocaine use. However, that Abiify can blunt the effects of cocaine is not questioned.
>As you point out, your experience mat be different because you're combining these drugs, and the studies rarely go for combinations of a treatment. I know that antipsychotics don't blunt amphetamine's euphoria, but I don't know anything about cocaine, so I'll take your word for it.
> Another way to blunt the effects of psychostimulants and cocaine is to administer prazosin.
>
> I think we are in agreement that paper theories are often of little value when evaluating the utility of psychotropic drugs.yup.
>
> - Scott
>
This is the end of the thread.
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