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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 6:42:02
In reply to Lou's response-rtunovthenheytiv » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on October 13, 2011, at 20:40:18
> > Some people look to escape their normal consciousness by using mind altering drugs. I wish they would understand how desperate we are to arrive where they have left.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott,
> You wrote the above.
> I see that there are two states of conciousness, one the {normal}and another when the mind is alterd by drugs. But there could be a third state, where one in not in a {normal} state and wants to return to the normal state. The person wanting to return then, could or could not be taking mind-altering drugs.
> But be it as it may be, the quest is to {return} to the {normal} state.
> But what is this {normal} state? Is it any state that is not under the influence of a mind-altering drug? Let us reason together. Let's say that there is a normal state and that there are subsets of that state, as long as mind-altering drugs are not taken. Would this mean that for one that takes mind-altering drugs they would have to stop the drugs to return to the normal state?
> L'shanah tovah (belated)And to you too, my comrade.
You have given me a lot to think about. I am clear as to what my beliefs are regarding altered states of consciousness. I'm just not sure that I can impart them in words just yet. I'll continue to ponder your post, Lou. Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by gadchik on October 14, 2011, at 7:43:29
In reply to Just a thought..., posted by SLS on October 13, 2011, at 19:06:43
> Some people look to escape their normal consciousness by using mind altering drugs. I wish they would understand how desperate we are to arrive where they have left.
>
>
> - ScottPowerful,and heartbreaking
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 9:34:16
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by JohnLA on October 14, 2011, at 1:05:56
By the way...
How is life treating you?
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2011, at 12:54:42
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » JohnLA, posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 9:34:16
I used to be normal and extremly happy on the go all the time. Never ever altered that mood it was what I aim for today. To emulate that well being. Phillipa
Posted by gadchik on October 14, 2011, at 13:14:00
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2011, at 12:54:42
> I used to be normal and extremly happy on the go all the time. Never ever altered that mood it was what I aim for today. To emulate that well being. Phillipa
My happiest times were when I was 10,and unbelievably when I had a toddler. Now Im 47,and have a 19 yr old,and must use meds to cope.Not because my child is mean, but because I had to let him go
Posted by ron1953 on October 14, 2011, at 14:30:57
In reply to Just a thought..., posted by SLS on October 13, 2011, at 19:06:43
At least, illicit drugs actually DO something, compared to the spotty results of psych medications.
Also, whenever I see the n-word used, I'm suspect. Looking at what "normal" represents, I'm often thankful that I'm not, and I continue to resist its siren call.
Posted by JohnLA on October 14, 2011, at 18:56:58
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » JohnLA, posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 9:34:16
thnx for asking scott.
i'm a talker, but i'll do my best to be brief. ;)
i am not very well. i am in month 19 of my first ever major depressive episode. i pretty much stay in bed almost 24 hours a day. have not worked since april of last year. (i was a teacher for the past 26 years.) i was also very active; travelling, socializing, gym, reading, etc. i've come to a complete stop on all that.
i had several stressful events take place over 2009/2010. kind of a 'perfect storm' coming together that has put me literally flat on my back.
severe anhedonia, isolating and suicidal thinking are the worst parts. i continue to research suicide methods. not a good habit. really crazy because i pretty much loved life before all this went down. for example; i taught art history, film history and music history to 12th graders at a great school. really cool subjects that i was very passionate about and they were very popular courses at the school. (mostly because i gave every kid an A! :)) not 'feeling' mozart or miles or the beatles anymore is just very sad and tragic to me.
i guess it is 'situational' depression. but, 19 months is a long-*ss time to be ruminating on the same 6 or 7 'mistakes' i made in my life. i never realized it, but i think i may have a bit of ocd in me. i'm also thinking i may have been in a mild depression for few years before everything came crashing down. (mid-life, single, some health issues.)
i even tried ect to get out of it. worked briefly. can you believe i had ect 2 months into my depression? it was when i had my first suicidal thoughts and went in-patient voluntarily. i was scared and confused and was willing to try anything at the time to stop the pain.
currently i'm on remeron 30mg and a little klonopin (1 to 2mg). i am less anxious than last year and have gone back to pretty regular sleeping patterns since going on the remeron in december. the klonopin i have slowly been going up in dosage and have been on it for a year. i'd like to try and come down/off that and see if that would help with my depression/apathy. you hear so many conflicting views about klonopin that it's hard to know what to do.
my pdoc is a little frustrated with me since i rarely give a drug a fair trial. (have tried cymbalta, lexapro, wellbutrin, and effexor.) all either did not work after 6+ weeks or made me feel miserable within a week. i was always very med sensitive.
i also go to talk therapy once a week. not sure this helps. but, 'they' say it's a good thing to do. plus, it is a reason to get out of the house. it still blows my mind how reclusive i have become. that, and not showering for a few days at a time is also a trip compared to the old me.
also, i may be doing a clinical study at ucla using TNS therapy. (mogger and i have a thread on this on the alternative board here at babble you might want to check-out.)
ok, i could go on, but i won't. i could always tell in class when i was lecturing too much...
i really appreciate you asking how i am. that was cool. i know you are a bit of a 'vip' here, so again, thnx for taking the time to ask.
finally; how u doing? (that's with a heavy new york accent!)
john
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 19:12:09
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by JohnLA on October 14, 2011, at 18:56:58
Hi.
Thanks for the synopsis. It will help others to get to know your better and how you experience your illness. I hope you and your doctors hit the targets that will bring you into wellness.
> i guess it is 'situational' depression.
I bet a great many cases of MDD are precipitated by situational depressions. Once triggered, the MDD becomes autonomous. Of course, many of these MDD episodes remit spontaneously. Reducing the stress load increases one's chances of recovering; either spontaneously or via biological interventions. Psychotherapy can help reduce the chronic psychosocial stressors that feed the MDD.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 20:14:29
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by ron1953 on October 14, 2011, at 14:30:57
> Also, whenever I see the n-word used, I'm suspect.
Suspect of what, exactly?
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2011, at 21:16:05
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » ron1953, posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 20:14:29
To me normal is wonderful full of life, inquisitive, lots of energy, always looking for something to do, at times sitting and reading, excercising, not looking up meds and seeing doctors. Too much of that isn't good. When on Shaklee vitamins I always thought health. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 22:01:44
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2011, at 21:16:05
> > Some people look to escape their normal consciousness by using mind altering drugs. I wish they would understand how desperate we are to arrive where they have left.
> To me normal is wonderful full of life, inquisitive, lots of energy, always looking for something to do, at times sitting and reading, excercising, not looking up meds and seeing doctors. Too much of that isn't good. When on Shaklee vitamins I always thought health. Phillipa
In this limited context, I had thought "normal" to mean the absence of mental illness. Simple.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2011, at 22:05:07
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » Phillipa, posted by SLS on October 14, 2011, at 22:01:44
Yes for me it was as I felt good and did this and more. When anxiety entered the picture uncontrolled by meds is when I no longer was normal in my eyes. As normal to me is a combination of all these things. Phillipa
Posted by hyperfocus on October 15, 2011, at 1:21:57
In reply to Just a thought..., posted by SLS on October 13, 2011, at 19:06:43
Back in the 80's I don't think there was a kid alive who didn't want to be like Michael Jackson. He had everything - tons of money, looks that made girls scream, fame, success...30 years later his life ended in the most pitiful state. Scorned, ridiculed, vilified, hooked on drugs, finances in ruins...He had everything but for all he had he constantly felt the need to alter his appearance till he didn't even look human. He could have gotten literally any woman he wanted, yet his sexuality was so dark and distorted and repulsive to most people. He might have been the greatest entertainer of all time but he still needed incredible amounts of drugs just to sleep for a few hours, just to escape his life for a while.
It's not just drugs people take to escape. I know people who have everything yet who just can't find anything to satisfy them. They get the best jobs, make the most money, get the best-looking cars and women, workout 5 days at the gym, have tons of friends...and yet it's not enough. Their lives are in shambles - marriages wrecked because of infidelity, kids estranged - they have so much yet they fail at the most basic things in life. No matter how much they acquire or how much they spend they can't seem to get enough to escape from who they are inside. As afflicted as I am, I wouldn't want their life for a second.
There's a line I came across recently: The rich will forever be in want while the poor will never be in need. I know a lot of people on PB ware kind and unselfish and compassionate. To me that's plenty enough. I don't want any friends who aren't like that. Wherever the normal people are I don't want to be 'there.' I'd rather stay in my current state than be like the majority of 'normal' people. Every day I open my eyes I try to appreciate the fact that I get to live another day, when so many did not. If I live though the day in pain at least I know I tried my best in my thoughts and in my actions to do no evil to anyone. In that sense I don't know if there's a better place to be.
Posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 10:44:00
In reply to Just a thought..., posted by SLS on October 13, 2011, at 19:06:43
When I see the word "normal" used in the context of "mental health", I suspect that it is often in regard to an unattainable ideal, and that it assumes other people, "normal" people are better off, happier, lead more fulfilling lives, etc.. And that, if I take the right meds, attend therapy, etc., I can be just like them. The attraction to be one of the "shiny happy people" is understandable, but maybe some of us need to accept that we're not ever (and possibly have never been) going to be that imagined ideal, and to seriously consider cessation of beating that dead horse in favor of other possible approaches.
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2011, at 12:31:06
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 10:44:00
> When I see the word "normal" used in the context of "mental health", I suspect that it is often in regard to an unattainable ideal, and that it assumes other people, "normal" people are better off, happier, lead more fulfilling lives, etc.. And that, if I take the right meds, attend therapy, etc., I can be just like them. The attraction to be one of the "shiny happy people" is understandable, but maybe some of us need to accept that we're not ever (and possibly have never been) going to be that imagined ideal, and to seriously consider cessation of beating that dead horse in favor of other possible approaches.
I agree that some people complicate their lives by comparing themselves to others or some imagined ideal. There is more than one definition of the word "normal", though. I won't argue semantics here, as I think my meaning is quite clear as stated. Here, I try to keep things simple. I hope that's okay.Still, I don't know what you mean by calling my use of the term "normal" suspect. What do you suspect me of?
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 13:07:56
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » ron1953, posted by SLS on October 15, 2011, at 12:31:06
It was in regard to a quite common use of the word; not specifically pointed at you personally. As for your assertion of simplicity, I disagree - you apparently love to obfuscate.
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2011, at 13:28:51
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 13:07:56
> It was in regard to a quite common use of the word; not specifically pointed at you personally. As for your assertion of simplicity, I disagree - you apparently love to obfuscate.
I guess you are entitled to your opinion. However, I don't find your use of the word "obfuscate" to be terribly complementary. I think my writing style is quite clear and avoids obfuscation
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normal
As you see, there are several definitions. Perhaps you focus on the one dealing with conformity. This is probably normal for you.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 13:47:24
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » ron1953, posted by SLS on October 15, 2011, at 13:28:51
Actually, it IS complementary, just not complimentary.......
Posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2011, at 17:15:02
In reply to Just a thought..., posted by SLS on October 13, 2011, at 19:06:43
> Some people look to escape their normal consciousness by using mind altering drugs. I wish they would understand how desperate we are to arrive where they have left.
>
>
> - ScottMost people that use recreational drugs do not have healthy minds. There is a reason they are are using regularly to escape. Plus, they may consciously feel as if they are o.k., especially those weekend warriors, but something is going on subconsciously that is not so o.k.
I hear what you are saying though. A lot of very high functioning people that have fairly good lives like to get high or drunk on the weekends especially.
Posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 18:12:57
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by morgan miller on October 15, 2011, at 17:15:02
Hmmmm - "high functioning" or "functioning high"?
Posted by Phillipa on October 15, 2011, at 19:19:49
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by ron1953 on October 15, 2011, at 18:12:57
Normal sane? So in mental illness the absence of normal is insane? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2011, at 23:08:19
In reply to Re: Just a thought..., posted by Phillipa on October 15, 2011, at 19:19:49
> Normal sane? So in mental illness the absence of normal is insane? Phillipa
I don't use the words "sane" and "insane" to describe mental health or mental illness. Lawyers and judges use them, I know. They have their own prescribed definitions. What do these words mean to you as you used them above?
As best as I can determine, a dictionary offers descriptions of word usage past and present. It does not originate or impose word definitions upon society. Like it or not, in the past, people have used the word "normal" to provide a contrast in their definitions of sanity and insanity.
By the way Phillipa, what is your definition of the word "normal"? Would you know what someone meant were they to use the word "normal" to describe the results of a EKG?
Speaking of obfuscation, I find all of this rhetoric surrounding the use of the word "normal" to be an obfuscation of the otherwise obvious meaning of my original post.
That's all for now.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 16, 2011, at 19:46:10
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » Phillipa, posted by SLS on October 15, 2011, at 23:08:19
Scott I used to read EKG's when working CCU and at the time had to measure out the pr's qrs's and know all abnormalities. Best I can tell you without details normal EKG is normal sinus rhythm which is easily googleable. Why does the word normal seem to upset you? What is normal to one person isn't necessarily normal to another. Even different locations of the US in mental health definitions do vary. Phillipa
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 16, 2011, at 21:06:00
In reply to Just a thought..., posted by SLS on October 13, 2011, at 19:06:43
> Some people look to escape their normal consciousness by using mind altering drugs. I wish they would understand how desperate we are to arrive where they have left.
>
>
> - ScottI was never there without using a "mind-altering" drug, so I'm not sure how to react to this. What one chooses to do with his body is nobody else's business.
Posted by SLS on October 17, 2011, at 5:47:04
In reply to Re: Just a thought... » SLS, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 16, 2011, at 21:06:00
> > Some people look to escape their normal consciousness by using mind altering drugs. I wish they would understand how desperate we are to arrive where they have left.
> I was never there without using a "mind-altering" drug,
Which mind-altering substances do you take to get you "there"?
Where is "there"?
> so I'm not sure how to react to this.
You feel what you feel.
> What one chooses to do with his body is nobody else's business.
I understand your sentiments. I don't know that things are that simple, though.
My business? Have I suggested that any kind of action be taken? I simply expressed my thoughts and feelings about something that I have my own reactions to. How I feel about things is certainly my business, and I am granted the privilege here to express my sentiments as you are yours.
- Scott
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