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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 6, 2011, at 13:50:53
In reply to Re: Weight gain. Successful diet despite nardil!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 6, 2011, at 12:20:41
"With meds that "cause weight gain", never forget that we breathe air. Less calories than your body needs to maintain weight equals weight loss, Nardil or not, you LOSE weight in
this calorie deficient cenario."Yeah, I get that. You will lose weight. However, at some point you will stop losing weight and will be at a point where you wish to maintain that weight. All other things being equal, odds are that most people end up somewhat heavier on Nardil.
"Anyway drop the carbs, raise protein: you gonna have an easier time with not overeating, or eating less kcal than the body needs."
Yes, you are correct. If you're able to stick to an ultra-low-carb diet on Nardil, more power to you. In order for me not to have _intense_ carbohydrate cravings on that stuff, I'd have to basically eliminate carbohydrates. And even in that scenario, I imagine that I'd still weigh a little bit more, because one cannot completely eliminate carbohydrates.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3791153?dopt=Citation
"Hydrazine sulfate was evaluated using 24-hour dietary recalls and body weight determinations before and after 30 days of either placebo or hydrazine (60 mg, 3 times/d) oral administration in 101 heavily pretreated cancer patients with weight loss. After 1 month, 83% of hydrazine and only 53% of placebo patients completing repeat evaluation maintained or increased their weight (P less than 0.05). In addition, appetite improvement was more frequent in the hydrazine group (63% versus 25%, P less than 0.05). Although caloric intake was only slightly greater in hydrazine-treated patients, an increased caloric intake was more commonly associated with weight gain in patients receiving hydrazine compared with those receiving placebo (81% versus 53%, respectively). Hydrazine toxicity was mild, with 71% of patients reporting no toxic effects. Hydrazine sulfate circulatory levels were obtained from a subset of 14 patients who completed 30 days of treatment, with a single sample obtained in the morning at least 9 hours after the last dose. Mean maintenance hydrazine sulfate levels, determined using a spectrofluorometric assay, ranged from 0 to 89 ng/ml (mean 45 +/- 16 ng/ml). These data, which demonstrate an association between 1 month of hydrazine sulfate administration and body weight maintenance in patients with cancer, suggest future clinical trials of hydrazine sulfate are indicated to definitively assess its long-term impact on important clinical outcome parameters in defined cancer populations."
And this is in a scenario where people are _trying desperately_ to gain weight.
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 7, 2011, at 7:38:48
In reply to Re: Weight gain. Successful diet despite nardil! » Lamdage22, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 6, 2011, at 13:50:53
> Yes, you are correct. If you're able to stick to an ultra-low-carb diet on Nardil, more power to you. In order for me not to have _intense_ carbohydrate cravings on that stuff, I'd have to basically eliminate carbohydrates. And even in that scenario, I imagine that I'd still weigh a little bit more, because one cannot completely eliminate carbohydrates.
It does not cause me all to much effort honestly. My life is funny.. when I'm down i can't bring up discipline/drive for anything.
When I'm up it seems to go without all too much effort. Even with some ease. At some point it makes "click" i pull through with everything i have and i get into something like auto-mode.
I feel relief and thats probably also a reason i have an easy time with losing weight. Weight gain is also atypical depression, which nardil is prescribed for.My med/supplement regimen seems to work and I'm soon starting therapy again. I told my regular hooker that i do like her very much (i do) but i won't be her customer anymore. She told me stuff like "i like you" "i love you" and "marry me" over and over again and we had good connection. Anyway: Gave her my number and told her it'd be up to her if we see each other again or not. It was a courageous step for me.
Right now i feel a little bit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkgbThFqDdQ i REALLY do:)..Greetings,
..Lamdage..Ps. Like i said i will post my diet strategy in detail as soon as i find time. Its golden for me :)
Posted by stargazer2 on October 7, 2011, at 9:26:47
In reply to Re: Weight gain. Successful diet despite nardil!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 7, 2011, at 7:38:48
The divorce diet works wonders, lost 40 pounds while on Nardil. Gaining it back on Marplan but not at a baseline yet.
Stargazer
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 7, 2011, at 10:45:27
In reply to Divorce diet on NArdil, posted by stargazer2 on October 7, 2011, at 9:26:47
Sounds like it was more for personal reasons than the meds?
Ld
Posted by shot_away on October 7, 2011, at 16:34:00
In reply to Weight gain. Successful diet despite nardil!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 6, 2011, at 11:29:01
> So i hear occasionally that Marplan isn't nearly as bad on weight gain as Nardil.. Is that true??
Its true! But everything on Marplan seems less compared to Nardil. Side effects but efficiacy too. Its like a background drug- one to augment for sure. Maybe an excellent med for depression alone, but the slightest accompanying anxiety and you'll need something else coz Marplan is too activating in this case. Major depressives may also find it fairly weak. Remember- 10mg for every 15mg of Nardil is the equivalent. I take 90mg Marplan and still need a second AD + Abilify. And still 4-5mg Klonopin for the SA. Lets face it, Nardil can do it all when it works. Aww, its getting more tempting that Nardil!!
Posted by shot_away on October 7, 2011, at 16:42:30
In reply to Re: Weight gain. Successful diet despite nardil! » Lamdage22, posted by shot_away on October 7, 2011, at 16:34:00
I will add, that the diet on Marplan is much less restricted than the other 2 non-selective MAOIs. Whatever the doc says! I've eten most things, apart from very fermented foods and always been fine. I can still eat cheesy piza. Wouldn't dare on Nardil.
Weight gane is very unlikely too unless u have a particularly carby tongue! In Marplan's case you are what you eat.
Posted by shot_away on October 7, 2011, at 17:35:10
In reply to Re: Weight gain. Successful diet despite nardil!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 6, 2011, at 12:20:41
Lamdage! Any chance you can turn on your babblemail briefly for a quick private exchange of words?
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 7, 2011, at 20:24:15
In reply to Lamdage22! » Lamdage22, posted by shot_away on October 7, 2011, at 17:35:10
> Lamdage! Any chance you can turn on your babblemail briefly for a quick private exchange of words?
Sure.. Consider it done. 90mgs of marplan is not very much, i hear the max recommendet dosage is pussy and undsrestimated.
Posted by shot_away on October 8, 2011, at 7:46:56
In reply to Re: Lamdage22!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 7, 2011, at 20:24:15
> Sure.. Consider it done. 90mgs of marplan is not very much, i hear the max recommendet dosage is pussy and undsrestimated.
Yes but wait till you get to 80mg+ and feel the postural hypotention! Its what im battling with now at 90mg after over 3 years on it! And thats before i added abilify too which has the same effect on me. Ah well...
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 9, 2011, at 8:30:51
In reply to Re: Lamdage22! » Lamdage22, posted by shot_away on October 8, 2011, at 7:46:56
Re: postural hypotension. There are treatments for it, as you are probably aware. Have you tried any of them?
Posted by shot_away on October 9, 2011, at 10:42:03
In reply to Re: Lamdage22! » shot_away, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 9, 2011, at 8:30:51
> Re: postural hypotension. There are treatments for it, as you are probably aware. Have you tried any of them?
Well actuallly, no I haven't. Not sure what my doc would think but please, i'd like to here the options!
Oh, I did do a trial with table salt (sodium) and it did raise my BP but it was too high whilst sat or laying down so I stopped. BP was perfect whilst standing tho, and getting up was better.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 9, 2011, at 10:49:19
In reply to Re: Lamdage22! » Chairman_MAO, posted by shot_away on October 9, 2011, at 10:42:03
This list seems pretty good: http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/disorders/medical/orthostatic.html
Posted by shot_away on October 9, 2011, at 10:50:08
In reply to Re: Lamdage22!, posted by Lamdage22 on October 7, 2011, at 20:24:15
>90mgs of marplan is not very much, i hear the max recommendet dosage is pussy and undsrestimated.
>
>
>
>Where did you hear this? I'm interested. Got any links?? What dosage strategy are you planning on urself?
Posted by shot_away on October 9, 2011, at 10:54:02
In reply to Re: Lamdage22! » shot_away, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 9, 2011, at 10:49:19
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 10, 2011, at 5:12:29
In reply to Re: Lamdage22! » Lamdage22, posted by shot_away on October 9, 2011, at 10:50:08
> >90mgs of marplan is not very much, i hear the max recommendet dosage is pussy and undsrestimated.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Where did you hear this? I'm interested. Got any links?? What dosage strategy are you planning on urself?Oh i don't remember.. i just scan through very much information so i have an inkling of whats going on with what else is out there.
Im not planning the Marplan yet, got other stuff to take care of.
I think to have heard 120mgs but don't count on it, this is something i believe to have heard somewhere i don't remember.You can just google marplan with words like high dosage, 110mg etc etc.
It may be wise to label my "slight inklings" as such to prevent people from doing things based solely on my posts. Im sure if you search you will find something though. It might very well have been on anxiety support.
Posted by jch on October 14, 2011, at 13:50:10
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan?, posted by jch on September 19, 2011, at 19:05:53
1st post Sept 11, looking for effects of old Marplan.
Might have found an answer. I have been taking Aplenzin and Nardil. First week: 172mgs of Aplenzin w/ 45 mgs Nardil, second week 354mgs Aplenzin w/45mgs Nardil.
I feel so much better, leaden legs gone; energy and motivation rising daily. I t reminds me of my experience with Marplan in the 80's.
Side effects so far: Higher pitch to my Tinnutus (I have had it for 30yrs), indigestion if I take it on an empty stomach and possibly slight constipation (this may be cause I've not been eating my daily Fiber One). None a major problem.
I have been taking Nardil for at least 12 yrs, with various low doses of stimulants. I can't take higher dose of Nardil because I keep fainting, sometimes unexpectedly midday. For years everything was A ok.
A few years ago, things started to go downhill. I don't know if it was due to Nardil poop out or the change in formula. Eventually I had no energy/motivation and my legs felt weak, heavy and achy; but I was perfectly happy as long as I could lay in bed and watch TV. Tried taking no Nardil ( to see if it was doing anything)and that was a mistake. Spent days sobbing in bed, went back on Nardil.
I have tried every MAOI (and maybe 15 other ads) and Nardil best works the best for me other than the old Marplan.
After doing research online, I suggested to my doc the combo of Nardil w/ Wellbutrin, which I had handled well in the past, til it pooped out. I took a copy of a report from 2002 saying it was not dangerous.(will post link)
He suggested I try Aplenzin instead,I really don't remember why.
My only original problem was atypical depression, although I have developed a slight case of agoraphobia recently. I have been seeking successful treatment for 28 yrs. So far this combination and the old Marplan have been the only successes. Mind you, I have only been taking this combination for 2 weeks.As for sleep, I never remembered dreaming before I started taking Nardil; I have had vivid dreams since. I think dreaming happens during REM, guess there's no disturbance. I have, on occasion, not been able to close my eyes and turn off my thoughts, up for 24-36 hrs. This is solved by staying off the internet after 8 pm. Easy fix.
It seems that many people have had problems with weight gain on Nardil. Initially I lost weight which could be explained situationally, my mother died and I opened a new business involving a lot of physical labor. After a couple of years I gained weight, about 20 lbs over ideal. I blamed it on menopause and less exercise. Closed the business and went to bed (2008)went back down to my ideal. I don't know why, less interested in eating and could'nt muster the energy to get to the store. f.y.i. I eat to live not live to eat. Too early to tell what new combo will do.
Will report if anything unexpected happens.
Posted by shot_away on October 14, 2011, at 17:16:46
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan?, posted by jch on October 14, 2011, at 13:50:10
I've been on Nardil + Zyban and Marplan + Zyban. Both worked but both pooped out on me. Any ideas for poop-out?
Posted by shot_away on October 14, 2011, at 17:20:41
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan? » jch, posted by shot_away on October 14, 2011, at 17:16:46
Im thinking of asking for atomoxetine to go with Marplan. What you think? (anyone) I allways have low energy.
Posted by jch on October 14, 2011, at 19:05:05
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan? » jch, posted by shot_away on October 14, 2011, at 17:16:46
I have only just started w/ this combination. I know I'm happy so far' but 2 weeks doesn't even give the full effect of the meds. I am hoping that there's no poop out, or at least not for years. Will continue to report any and all changes.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 14, 2011, at 22:37:00
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan? » jch, posted by shot_away on October 14, 2011, at 17:16:46
Yeah. Forget about the bupropion and add memantine, d-amphetamine, or both. Perhaps a TCA (despiramine) or another NE uptake inhibitor? There are many other options.
I don't want to start any flame wars, but frankly bupropion is a joke. It's a very weak psychostimulant with active metabolites. It makes you feel more dysphoric instead of more euphoric in high doses--otherwise it would be a controlled substance. Diethylpropion (Tenuate) is a schedule IV controlled substance.
It is good for helping smokers quit, though.
Posted by jch on October 15, 2011, at 10:20:11
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan? » shot_away, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 14, 2011, at 22:37:00
Don't know about Memantine but I have taken several d-amphetamines and although they worked to alleviate nardil lack of energy for 9 years; for the last 3 they have been totally ineffective. Three years ago I not only had no energy, I didn't want to do anything. Nardil was still having some effect as I was not depressed, I was perfectly happy,as long as I could stay in bed and watch TV.
Two week ago I added Aplenzin and for the last 3 days I have been up, bathed, dressed and busy.
This is something that was sometimes impossible for me in the past three years. I have completely blown off appointments or arrived late. Showed up, next door, for Christmas dinner 1 1/2 hrs late, 2 yrs ago;last year I went down the street, again 11/2-2 hrs late. Fortunately, I have understanding friends.
I understand, from some of the messages, that this combination might poop out. I really hope not, because it is the most effective since the mid 90's when I took the old Marplan.and I have taken 15 or so different anti depressants plus various combinations there of.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 15, 2011, at 15:12:12
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan?, posted by jch on October 15, 2011, at 10:20:11
I hope it continues to work in the long-term for you.
Posted by Jul on March 9, 2013, at 22:13:14
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan?, posted by jch on September 19, 2011, at 19:05:53
After about a year trying MANY dif antidepressants in about 1985 I had a MHPG 24 Hr Urine Test done and my Psych said it indicated severe resistant depression...VERY low Norepinephrine level!
So he prescribed Marplan (MAO Inhibitor) which acts on ALL THREE(3)Neurotransmitters.
He only resorted to this MAO when nothing else worked.One morning about 6 weeks later, and a few increases in dose, I woke up with the black cloud over me COMPLETELY GONE! and NOTHING in my life had changed! It was the MOST MIRACULOUS change in my life. I no longer felt depressed at all! Dr Frank Bolea of Miami FL saved my life and he REALLY cared about me. All these years later I still think of him and what he did for me!
Jul
Posted by tecknohed on May 28, 2013, at 17:13:52
In reply to Re: Is anyone currently taking Marplan?, posted by Jul on March 9, 2013, at 22:13:14
Hi. I have just found relief from the following each day: 90mg isocarboxazid, 4mg clonazepam, 300mg bupropion, 50mg quetiapine and the last added was Amitryptyline 100mg. And I think its the amitryptyline thats finally kicked in (after several months). Social anxiety is almost gone, I even talk to strangers, when appropriate lol.
Only felt this good once before, which was when I took just phenelzine (Nardil).
I dont consider myself med resistant as most primary docs prescribe totally sh*t meds that wont do anything for my symptoms. Only the psychs use 'big guns' which is a very misguided term. Many are simply old meds, and docs are still frightened to take responsibility of giving someone an MAOI and even many TCAs. it stinks not to allow a sufferer the choice to try these meds. Saves many years of pointless med trials.teck
Posted by tecknohed on May 28, 2013, at 17:52:44
In reply to Marplan winning combo!, posted by tecknohed on May 28, 2013, at 17:13:52
> Hi. I have just found relief from the following each day: 90mg isocarboxazid, 4mg clonazepam, 300mg bupropion, 50mg quetiapine and the last added was Amitryptyline 100mg. And I think its the amitryptyline thats finally kicked in (after several months). Social anxiety is almost gone, I even talk to strangers, when appropriate lol.
> Only felt this good once before, which was when I took just phenelzine (Nardil).
> I dont consider myself med resistant as most primary docs prescribe totally sh*t meds that wont do anything for my symptoms. Only the psychs use 'big guns' which is a very misguided term. Many are simply old meds, and docs are still frightened to take responsibility of giving someone an MAOI and even many TCAs. it stinks not to allow a sufferer the choice to try these meds. Saves many years of pointless med trials.
>
> teck
>Forgot to mention that for the past month I've also been taking Inositol, 650mg 3 x daily. Hard to pick out the effect from all the other meds I take, but I have been feeling somewhat calmer, often allowing me to leave a morning Klonopin pill out a few times a week. And seeing as I'm doing well I'm keeping the inositol.
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