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Posted by europerep on October 3, 2011, at 16:40:12
In reply to nardil questions, posted by ger man on October 3, 2011, at 14:26:46
Hello there...
This is a very interesting post.
First, on your question... the reformulation, yes... as far as I understand, it has been a problem for some patients who had to switch from the old to the new formulation. But today's Nardil is still phenelzine, so there's no reason to think that it is inherently less potent as an antidepressant. Since you are starting on the new one, there is no reason to be worried I think, especially if you feel like it's doing something already.
What I wanted to let you know though is that it may be (much) easier and cheaper for you to get ahold of phenelzine in Europe. Phenelzine is available in Belgium under the name Nardelzine, and it costs 33,84 for 100 x 15mg. You can even get a reimbursement from your health insurance, which I think doesn't work American brand name Nardil. The product is basically the European version of Nardil. There's a thread somewhere of me discussing it with other members, I'll see if I can find a link to that.
In any case, your regular pharmacy can get that medication for you if your doctor prescribes it. Alternatively, if you happen to live the near the Benelux, you can go to a Belgian pharmacy with a prescription from a German doctor and obtain it like that. This may even be cheaper than having the pharmacy obtain it for you.
If you have any more questions about that, let me know.
Good luck for now!
ER
Posted by europerep on October 3, 2011, at 16:41:47
In reply to Re: nardil questions » ger man, posted by europerep on October 3, 2011, at 16:40:12
here's the link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20110630/msgs/990065.htmlThe discussion of Nardelzine begins a couple of posts into the conversation.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 3, 2011, at 20:54:15
In reply to nardil questions, posted by ger man on October 3, 2011, at 14:26:46
I think a lot of the fuss about the reformulation was power of suggestion..... the same sort of thing that makes your head itch as soon as someone mentions head lice. People read about someone who didnt like the new formulation, and convinced them selves it wasnt working for them.
The manufacturer would have had to submit blood level studies to the FDA to get the reformulation passed, I would suggest there were very few people who were wore off with the reformulated pills
Posted by ger man on October 4, 2011, at 1:57:20
In reply to Re: nardil questions, posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 3, 2011, at 20:54:15
> I think a lot of the fuss about the reformulation was power of suggestion..... the same sort of thing that makes your head itch as soon as someone mentions head lice. People read about someone who didnt like the new formulation, and convinced them selves it wasnt working for them.
>
> The manufacturer would have had to submit blood level studies to the FDA to get the reformulation passed, I would suggest there were very few people who were wore off with the reformulated pillsThats what i think too. Many argue that they outsourced the manufacturing process to france, so the fda couldnt controll it anymore. But if we believe in a pharma market in the western world that isnt controlled in a right way we shouldnt take any medication. I think its a bit like you said, once one patient had aproblem with the new nardil an all the others found a reason why their depression became worse or why nardil doesent work for them. I hope it will do its job for me!
Posted by ger man on October 4, 2011, at 7:44:39
In reply to Re: nardil questions » ger man, posted by europerep on October 3, 2011, at 16:40:12
>You can even get a reimbursement from your health insurance, which I think doesn't work American brand name Nardil.
Thanks for your advice, but i have to get the american Nardil from pfizer as the european versions have to be refrigerated. That doesent work for me as im travelling a lot for longer periods and sometimes there is no fridge around for a while!
Posted by europerep on October 4, 2011, at 13:52:21
In reply to Re: nardil questions, posted by ger man on October 4, 2011, at 7:44:39
> Thanks for your advice, but i have to get the american Nardil from pfizer as the european versions have to be refrigerated.
Hmm, I see your point. Personally, I have doubts that the Belgian Nardelzine really becomes inactive when not stored in a fridge, but I understand that you don't want to take the chance. Maybe I wouldn't want to do that either.
Purely out of curiosity though: how much do you pay for the US Nardil when bought in a German pharmacy? And do you get a reimbursement from your health insurance provider? I would really like to know that.
Posted by ger man on October 4, 2011, at 15:00:31
In reply to Re: nardil questions » ger man, posted by europerep on October 4, 2011, at 13:52:21
> > Thanks for your advice, but i have to get the american Nardil from pfizer as the european versions have to be refrigerated.
>
> Hmm, I see your point. Personally, I have doubts that the Belgian Nardelzine really becomes inactive when not stored in a fridge, but I understand that you don't want to take the chance. Maybe I wouldn't want to do that either.
>
> Purely out of curiosity though: how much do you pay for the US Nardil when bought in a German pharmacy? And do you get a reimbursement from your health insurance provider? I would really like to know that.
>I think its about 60 euros for 60 pills and i get everything back from my insurance as it is a private one!
Posted by leon21 on October 4, 2011, at 15:46:38
In reply to Re: nardil questions » ger man, posted by europerep on October 4, 2011, at 13:52:21
Hi europerep,
just curious, how did you get the belgian Nardelzine? 33,84 Euros is very cheap.
I have to pay 65 Euros for 15mgx100.
It`s the Archimedes brand from UK.
It`s the only Nardil they have.
My insurance didn´t want to cover it. But I need to ask my doctor.
thx
Posted by europerep on October 4, 2011, at 16:47:52
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by leon21 on October 4, 2011, at 15:46:38
> Hi europerep,
>
> just curious, how did you get the belgian Nardelzine? 33,84 Euros is very cheap.
>
> I have to pay 65 Euros for 15mgx100.
> It`s the Archimedes brand from UK.
> It`s the only Nardil they have.
> My insurance didn´t want to cover it. But I need to ask my doctor.
> thxHaha, good to see my info may be useful for someone after all...
There are basically two ways to get the Belgian phenelzine (it's a Pfizer product just like Nardil, but the name is changed to Nardelzine). If you live in a EU member state, your doctor can give you a prescription that you then take either to a Belgian pharmacy, or to a pharmacy in your home country.
If you go to a Belgian pharmacy, it's like going to a pharmacy in your home country. You give them the prescription, they will probably have to order it, and then you get it. You can call there before so that it's available from stock when you go there. If you're from Germany (or speaking German), it may be best to go to a pharmacy in Eupen, which is the "capital" of the German-speaking community in Belgium, so you can talk to the pharmacist in German. When bought like this, a pack of 100x15mg costs 33,84. You have to ask for a little paper slip that documents you bought the med, because, unlike in Germany, the pharmacy usually keeps the prescription.
You can also take the prescription from your doctor to a pharmacy in your home country (as long as it's an EU member state). They will then order the drug for you from Belgium. This works basically in the same way, but you'll probably have to pay more than 33 euros (I'm not sure how much though).
Depending on the country you come from, things may be more or less difficult. Going to Belgium with a German prescription will work better than with a Slovakian prescription. The basic rule is, however, that you can take a prescription from any EU member state to any other EU member state, and the prescription remains valid. Maybe this gets a little difficult with narcotics, but for "regular" drugs like an MAOI, this should work quite well. I have done it myself :)
If you have any more questions, let me know!
ER
Posted by leon21 on October 4, 2011, at 17:32:03
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep » leon21, posted by europerep on October 4, 2011, at 16:47:52
Thanks for the info:)
I`ve actually lived in Eupen. I know the city very well.
Next time...i`ll ask for Nardelzine.
Do you know how it works with the insurance?
Last time they said to me they need all the papers from my doc...but they don`t see why they have to pay for Nardil since there are many more/other "free" antidepressents in Germany.
Posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 3:03:42
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep » leon21, posted by europerep on October 4, 2011, at 16:47:52
> > Hi europerep,
> >
> > just curious, how did you get the belgian Nardelzine? 33,84 Euros is very cheap.
> >
> > I have to pay 65 Euros for 15mgx100.
> > It`s the Archimedes brand from UK.
> > It`s the only Nardil they have.
> > My insurance didn´t want to cover it. But I need to ask my doctor.
> > thx
>
> Haha, good to see my info may be useful for someone after all...
>
> There are basically two ways to get the Belgian phenelzine (it's a Pfizer product just like Nardil, but the name is changed to Nardelzine). If you live in a EU member state, your doctor can give you a prescription that you then take either to a Belgian pharmacy, or to a pharmacy in your home country.
>
> If you go to a Belgian pharmacy, it's like going to a pharmacy in your home country. You give them the prescription, they will probably have to order it, and then you get it. You can call there before so that it's available from stock when you go there. If you're from Germany (or speaking German), it may be best to go to a pharmacy in Eupen, which is the "capital" of the German-speaking community in Belgium, so you can talk to the pharmacist in German. When bought like this, a pack of 100x15mg costs 33,84. You have to ask for a little paper slip that documents you bought the med, because, unlike in Germany, the pharmacy usually keeps the prescription.
>
> You can also take the prescription from your doctor to a pharmacy in your home country (as long as it's an EU member state). They will then order the drug for you from Belgium. This works basically in the same way, but you'll probably have to pay more than 33 euros (I'm not sure how much though).
>
> Depending on the country you come from, things may be more or less difficult. Going to Belgium with a German prescription will work better than with a Slovakian prescription. The basic rule is, however, that you can take a prescription from any EU member state to any other EU member state, and the prescription remains valid. Maybe this gets a little difficult with narcotics, but for "regular" drugs like an MAOI, this should work quite well. I have done it myself :)
>
> If you have any more questions, let me know!
> ER
>
>You get your Nardil from Belgium?? Where are you from?? Im interested in contacting other european nardil users as it is not a very popular medicine here. How does Nardil work for you an how high is your dose??
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2011, at 4:12:34
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 3:03:42
Guten Tag ger man! Haha ich wollte schon immer mal einen deutschen Nardil user treffen!
(german greeting no offense)Nardil is a great medication new formulation or not. Try not to worry too much about it and see what it does. You can experiment with a couple of things..
for a while i made Nardil with all of the old ingredients i could get my hands on and enteric coated them myself with food shellac.I may try again when I'm bored but its a hell of a lot of work.
Of course you can experiment if you have a lot of time but just see where nardil takes you first. You did that and are not satisfied, talk to me i can provide some links of my own and others.
Ld
Posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 5:55:07
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2011, at 4:12:34
> Guten Tag ger man! Haha ich wollte schon immer mal einen deutschen Nardil user treffen!
> (german greeting no offense)
>
> Nardil is a great medication new formulation or not. Try not to worry too much about it and see what it does. You can experiment with a couple of things..
> for a while i made Nardil with all of the old ingredients i could get my hands on and enteric coated them myself with food shellac.
>
> I may try again when I'm bored but its a hell of a lot of work.
>
> Of course you can experiment if you have a lot of time but just see where nardil takes you first. You did that and are not satisfied, talk to me i can provide some links of my own and others.
>
> LdHey, das ist ja crazy. Dachte ich bin der einzige deutsche der das zeug schluckt :-)
Its good to hear not being the only guy around taking nardil. Are you still taking it? You wrote that you did some experiments with it? When you still take it is it effective and do you take it as it comes out of the box or do you prepare it your own way?
Posted by europerep on October 5, 2011, at 8:21:07
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by leon21 on October 4, 2011, at 17:32:03
> Thanks for the info:)
> I`ve actually lived in Eupen. I know the city very well.
> Next time...i`ll ask for Nardelzine.
> Do you know how it works with the insurance?
> Last time they said to me they need all the papers from my doc...but they don`t see why they have to pay for Nardil since there are many more/other "free" antidepressents in Germany.Haha, what a funny coincidence. So you've lived in Eupen, but you are from Germany?
If you have lived in Belgium, you probably have at least basic knowledge of either French or Dutch, right? If so, you can take a look at the CBIP/BCFI (Belgium's "Rote Liste"), it mentions Nardelzine:
http://www.cbip.be/GGR/MPG/MPG_JCD.cfm
Maybe you could print this out when taking it to the pharmacy. When I went to a Belgian pharmacy with a script for it the pharmacist first told me he hadn't heard of a drug called Nardelzine, but then he looked it up and ordered it for me.As for the insurance: so far, my insurance has paid for all of the drugs I have bought in Belgium. If you have trouble with getting reimbursement for phenelzine, here's what I'd do: first of all, start on phenelzine by paying for it yourself and calculate how much of it you need per month. Unless you have to take a very high dose, you'll probably need 1-2 boxes (i.e. 100-200 x 15mg) per month, that would add up to maximum 68. Then look at other drugs available in Germany, and calculate how much they'd cost you. For example, if you took 300mg of venlafaxine per month, that would already cost more than 150, and the insurance would have to pay for it. Tell the insurance that they have the choice between reimbursing you 68 for phenelzine or, alternatively, you'll take venlafaxine for more than 150 per month. (You can even increase the price difference if you tell them that you'd take a combination, let's say venlafaxine plus aripiprazole... that would easily cost hundreds of euros per month.) Of course it's a bluff because you wouldn't want to switch to venlafaxine (I assume), but I'm sure the insurance will be willing to compromise on that. It might be different with foreign drugs that are immensely expensive, but 68 is next to nothing, so I really think they would accept to pay for it.
Let me know if you have any other questions... and if you are going to buy Nardelzine in Belgium, please let me know how it works out, and whether you get your insurance to pay for it.
So much for now...
ER
Posted by europerep on October 5, 2011, at 8:31:42
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 3:03:42
> You get your Nardil from Belgium?? Where are you from?? Im interested in contacting other european nardil users as it is not a very popular medicine here. How does Nardil work for you an how high is your dose??
Hi GM...
I am from Germany (Frankfurt/Main to be precise) but I have been living in Belgium for a couple of years now.I have been through a wide range of antidepressants for TRD (treatment-resistant depression), but with no success. I tried out both tranylcypromine and phenelzine. It was basically a lucky coincidence that tranylcypromine was available in germany and phenelzine in Belgium. There are other European countries who have no irreversible MAOIs at all.
Due to my circumstances, I have extensive experience with both Belgian and German pharmacies/pharmacists. As I said in the post above, I have never had trouble getting reimbursements for drugs bought in Belgium. That may be due to the fact that they were usually precribed by psychiatrists here in Belgium, but I have also used German prescriptions, in particular for phenelzine, because the psychiatrists here in Belgium refused to prescribe it ("we haven't been using MAOIs since 20 years ago").
So, I have taken phenelzine, but I eventually stopped taking it because, much like tranylcypromine, it actually made my depression worse, which was not really that helpful.
It's good to hear it seems to work better for you. But you haven't been on it for that long, right? What are you taking it for: depression, anxiety,...?
Posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 9:54:05
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep » ger man, posted by europerep on October 5, 2011, at 8:31:42
> > You get your Nardil from Belgium?? Where are you from?? Im interested in contacting other european nardil users as it is not a very popular medicine here. How does Nardil work for you an how high is your dose??
>
> Hi GM...
> I am from Germany (Frankfurt/Main to be precise) but I have been living in Belgium for a couple of years now.
>
> I have been through a wide range of antidepressants for TRD (treatment-resistant depression), but with no success. I tried out both tranylcypromine and phenelzine. It was basically a lucky coincidence that tranylcypromine was available in germany and phenelzine in Belgium. There are other European countries who have no irreversible MAOIs at all.
>
> Due to my circumstances, I have extensive experience with both Belgian and German pharmacies/pharmacists. As I said in the post above, I have never had trouble getting reimbursements for drugs bought in Belgium. That may be due to the fact that they were usually precribed by psychiatrists here in Belgium, but I have also used German prescriptions, in particular for phenelzine, because the psychiatrists here in Belgium refused to prescribe it ("we haven't been using MAOIs since 20 years ago").
>
> So, I have taken phenelzine, but I eventually stopped taking it because, much like tranylcypromine, it actually made my depression worse, which was not really that helpful.
>
> It's good to hear it seems to work better for you. But you haven't been on it for that long, right? What are you taking it for: depression, anxiety,...?
>Hi, thanks for your answer. Youre right. Its my 8th day now, so its not possible to say anything about long term succes. For now its working a bit but nothing that can be distinguished from placebo effects. Side effects are minimal, some nervousness, headache and confusion. My main concern isnt depression, its more kind of neurotic depression with slight social deficits and prominent physical and psychic anxiety. Means i can handle social situations, but i hate them because im struggeling with myself when talking to people. My energy level is almost normal i think, maybe i could be a bit more alert, but its not that im sleeping all the time or lying in bed. I will see, but i have big hopes on nardil as ssris, snris and many other options failed to brake my inner self-destruction.
Posted by leon21 on October 5, 2011, at 10:30:09
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep » leon21, posted by europerep on October 5, 2011, at 8:21:07
Hi europerep,
yes, I live in Germany now.
Thanks for the link. I understand it...I speak french.
It`s funny, last time my pdoc gave me a script for 100x20mg Jatrosom. It was a month supply for me (40-60mg).Costs are 230 Euros + a script for Lyrica 170 Euros.
Lets see what they think next time about 65 for Nardil-solution:)
I want to switch to Nardil this Saturday. It`s my second time on it and was probably the best med for social anxiety for me. I`ve tried like 20+ meds. I had to quit Nardil because of the side-effects like weight gain and some chest pain.
But I think I can handle them this time.
I`ve got 2 packs of Archimedes Nardil here from my last trial.Do you know what Nardelzine contains?
That`s what Archimedes Nardil contains:* Mannitol
* Povidone
* Magnesium stearate and maize starch with the tablet coating containing hydroxypropyl cellulose
* Polyvinylacetatephthalate
* Stearic acid
* Sunset yellow (E110)
* Titanium dioxide (E171)
* Erythrosine (E127)
* Hydroxypropylmethylcellulose (E464)
* Talc
Same with Nardelzine?
I think they have both to be refregirated...so I guess the contant must be very similar.
leon
Posted by leon21 on October 5, 2011, at 10:42:38
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 9:54:05
Hi ger man,
can you tell me, how long does it take for you to get your Pfizer Nardil from the US?
At first, I`ve tried to get the Pfizer version but my pharmacy could only obtain it from the UK (Archimedes). They have to order it from "Euroapotheke". How did you get your Nardil?
I have usually to wait 5-7 days till it arrives.leon
Posted by europerep on October 6, 2011, at 14:02:29
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by leon21 on October 5, 2011, at 10:30:09
Hi leon...
Well, there you go, I would be surprised if your health insurance provider refused to pay for Nardelzine if it's actually cheaper than the alternatives.
I just looked at the Nardelzine that I still have in my fridge, and here's what it contains exactly:
Phenelzini sulfas (=phenelzinum 15mg) - Mannitolum - Polyvidonum - Magnesii stearas - Maydis amylum - Pro tabletta compressa una - Opadry Red 20-A-25096 - Obducta.
Don't ask me what "pro tabletta compressa una" and "obducta" is. I tried to google it, but didn't find an explanation.
By the way, Nardelzine is definitely the coolest-looking med on the planet. I wrote a little bit in this thread here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20110630/msgs/990755.html It's definitely the coolest red I have ever seen. Man, I wish they were working for me, they look and smell so awesome! :)
The package says to conserve it between 2° and 8°C, so it's a fridge product like the UK Nardil.
So much for now...
ER
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 3:49:11
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 5:55:07
Yes experimenting with adding ingredients, filling my own capsules and enteric coating them myself with food grade shellac (aus dem nagellackfläschchen). It doesn't only sound time consuming.
I took both the Pfizer and the Concord/Archimedes version and they both worked the same. Potentially Pfizer a tad better, not sure though.
Where do you get yours from? A doc? tell me where he is please.. I'm accessing "grey" market to get it and administer it myself.
Cheers, Ld
> Hey, das ist ja crazy. Dachte ich bin der einzige deutsche der das zeug schluckt :-)
>
> Its good to hear not being the only guy around taking nardil. Are you still taking it? You wrote that you did some experiments with it? When you still take it is it effective and do you take it as it comes out of the box or do you prepare it your own way?
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 3:58:29
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by ger man on October 5, 2011, at 9:54:05
> Hi, thanks for your answer. Youre right. Its my 8th day now, so its not possible to say anything about long term success.Not even closely.. do say something about it in 3 month. And get prepared to be shot out of your misery with a slingshot lol
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 4:03:44
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep, posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 3:58:29
>
> > Hi, thanks for your answer. Youre right. Its my 8th day now, so its not possible to say anything about long term success.
>
> Not even closely.. do say something about it in 3 month. And get prepared to be shot out of your misery with a slingshot lolWell it doesn't solve all problems, don't expect that. But if you're a responder, you likely are one, the biological aspect of your depression will be a WHOLE lot better.
Helped me make insane progresses in therapy, too..
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 4:07:11
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ europerep » ger man, posted by europerep on October 5, 2011, at 8:31:42
Why not do a german PBer lunch? Im pretty psyched to find several germans here, hehe
Posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 4:10:40
In reply to Re: nardil questions @ ger man, posted by leon21 on October 5, 2011, at 10:42:38
For me Pfizer is from the US delivered to switzerland (hotel) cuz they have different laws. Isn't worth the effort for nardil alone though. Its 100% legit with Lot Number and everything.
Takes bout 10 days, but you need to go to basel for example and book a night in any hotel. Its what i did.
> Hi ger man,
>
> can you tell me, how long does it take for you to get your Pfizer Nardil from the US?
> At first, I`ve tried to get the Pfizer version but my pharmacy could only obtain it from the UK (Archimedes). They have to order it from "Euroapotheke". How did you get your Nardil?
> I have usually to wait 5-7 days till it arrives.
>
> leon
Posted by europerep on October 14, 2011, at 16:03:19
In reply to europep! I live in Mainz (Mayence or what).., posted by Lamdage22 on October 8, 2011, at 4:07:11
oops, sorry for the late reply...
I didn't know you were from Germany, since your English is pretty native-like...
It's funny though that you mentioned how you get your Nardil... going to another country in order to receive the shipping in a hotel kind of sounds like me :D...
Anyhow, you were right, good to see some German people in here ;)...
This is the end of the thread.
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