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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 12:07:24
In reply to effexor washout is thought to be 7 days!, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 3:24:28
> Venlafaxine to MAOI is 7 days according to most sources. MAOI to venlafaxine is 2 weeks
Actually, 7 days is more than enough to washout Effexor. It has such a short half-life, that 4 days would probably be enough, if you went cold turkey.
When I check interactions with phenelzine, wellbutrin is contra-indicated. I believe it's a metabolic interaction.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 14:46:38
In reply to Re: effexor washout is thought to be 7 days! » Lamdage, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 12:07:24
I promise i will be. ;)
I just did some shopping: Kaolin, Gelatin, potassium carbonate, methocel and schellac-alkohol solution.
Acacia catechu will be bought, too.And i will buy a coffee grinder to make a "inactive ingredient powder". + a pill crusher. I will probably prepare only prepare the mix of this powder and of crushed nardil for a few pills at a time to avoid excess dosage fluctuations.
Enteric coating for do it yourselvers is actually pretty easy. Dip it in there.. (schellac/alcohol) let it dry. Turn 180 degrees dip it in. dip in for like 5 times.
Yeah not really sure about the wellbutrin yet. Im at 225mg now. When the nardil arrives i will go ahead and take 22.5 mg phenelzine. Thats half the effective dosage for me. It will take a while until mao is inhibited to any significant degree so i think its fine.
Anyone know the washout period of wellbutrin? Please dont tell me Maoi washout is 2 weeks because im not washing out nardil im washing out wellbutrin.Thanks Ld
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 15:34:28
In reply to Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 14:46:38
As for mixing, i will go easy on the potassium carbonate, the rest i will just take a teaspoon of each and make the mix. No headaches.
Then ill mix two parts nardil with one part inactive ingredient mix (roughly). I think whats most important is that the amount of phenelzine is accurate. Not sure how im going to accomplish this, but i will somehow.Wellbutrin washout is roughly 7 days if im not mistaken. Ill just throw a plan out there:
will stay at 150 wellbutrin and 22.5 phenelzine for a while. Then gradually fade out wellbutrin around a week prior to moving to the effective phenelzine dosage, having it completely out 3 days prior. Something like that. Sound good?
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 15:54:24
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 15:34:28
> As for mixing, i will go easy on the potassium carbonate, the rest i will just take a teaspoon of each and make the mix. No headaches.
> Then ill mix two parts nardil with one part inactive ingredient mix (roughly). I think whats most important is that the amount of phenelzine is accurate. Not sure how im going to accomplish this, but i will somehow.
>
> Wellbutrin washout is roughly 7 days if im not mistaken. Ill just throw a plan out there:
> will stay at 150 wellbutrin and 22.5 phenelzine for a while. Then gradually fade out wellbutrin around a week prior to moving to the effective phenelzine dosage, having it completely out 3 days prior. Something like that. Sound good?The interaction that has been reported between phenelzine and wellbutrin is that seizures become more likely, probably because phenelzine blocks the destriction of wellbutrin in the liver. If it's not bein destroyed, it's as if you're taking more of it. Wellbutrin will always cause seizures at high doses, so they put dosage limits on it to keep most people below the seizure threshold. You can't quantify ahead of time your personal risk created by taking both drugs simultaneously. You may find out if you do the experiment, however.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 16:01:27
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 15:34:28
P.S. A week washout for wellbutrin should be enough, but active metabolites have half-lives of up to 50 hours. If you want to account for those, the washout should be at least 10 days.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » Lamdage, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 16:01:27
Ok i feel ya. Lets throw neurontin in. Kidding
Seizures dont sound too fun.
I found this on drugs.com
bupropion ↔ phenelzine
MAJOR INTERACTION
Applies to: Wellbutrin (bupropion), Nardil (phenelzine)
CONTRAINDICATED: According to the manufacturer, the acute toxicity of bupropion may be potentiated by coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The mechanism of interaction has not been described.Oh well, i just dont know how to keep my head above water these following couple weeks if im going to have to go a more defensive route. :(
Posted by floatingbridge on June 16, 2011, at 16:23:24
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
You can post here among other things. Start some new threads. Do you ever hit the social board? Or Alt?
Glad you're gonna play safe.
fb
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2011, at 16:42:34
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » Lamdage, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 15:54:24
Hi Larry.
I took Wellbutrin 900mg for over a month without any side effects other than it made me feel moderately worse.
I took Parnate 80mg in combination with Wellbutrin 300mg without side effects other than the addition of Wellbutrin made me feel moderately worse.
Parnate isn't Nardil. Is Nardil more apt to affect the kinetics of Wellbutrin than Parnate?
- Scott
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:02:09
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
> Ok i feel ya. Lets throw neurontin in. Kidding
>
> Seizures dont sound too fun.
>
> I found this on drugs.com
>
> bupropion ↔ phenelzine
> MAJOR INTERACTION
> Applies to: Wellbutrin (bupropion), Nardil (phenelzine)
> CONTRAINDICATED: According to the manufacturer, the acute toxicity of bupropion may be potentiated by coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The mechanism of interaction has not been described.
>
> Oh well, i just dont know how to keep my head above water these following couple weeks if im going to have to go a more defensive route. :(I checked four different drug interaction engines, and three gave negative reports, indicating that the severity of the potential interaction was extremely serious. The most detailed report was at DrugDigest.
From Drug Digest:
BUPROPION HYDROCHLORIDE (in Wellbutrin Tablets) may interact with PHENELZINE (in Phenelzine Tablets)
Bupropion has been shown to cause seizures in some people, especially when used in high doses. Although the cause of this potential interaction is not clearly understood, the risk of experiencing a seizure is even greater when bupropion and phenelzine are taken together. Other side effects that can occur with the use of bupropion include agitation, confusion, nausea and vomiting, headaches, and sleep disturbances. Bupropion and phenelzine should not be used at the same time. Wait at least 2 weeks or longer after stopping therapy with phenelzine before starting therapy with bupropion.Ask your healthcare provider about these drugs and this potential interaction as soon as possible.
This interaction is poorly documented and is considered major in severity.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:06:27
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » larryhoover, posted by SLS on June 16, 2011, at 16:42:34
> Hi Larry.
>
> I took Wellbutrin 900mg for over a month without any side effects other than it made me feel moderately worse.
>
> I took Parnate 80mg in combination with Wellbutrin 300mg without side effects other than the addition of Wellbutrin made me feel moderately worse.
>
> Parnate isn't Nardil. Is Nardil more apt to affect the kinetics of Wellbutrin than Parnate?
>
>
> - ScottI really don't know, Scott. From what I read about the pharmacokinetics and modes of metabolic processing and excretion, it looks like this is an idiosyncratic interaction. I suspect that there have been case reports filed with the FDA and/or the manufacturer, indicating that the problem can occur. It's not predicted by receptor activity or direct drug effects. I suspect it's a quirk of liver function, i.e. a genetic (un)luck of the draw.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 17:25:03
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » SLS, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:06:27
I will definitely play it safe. The main motive is that if something goes wrong, i will once again have other people tell me what med to take.
I dont want that, i want independence, i want longterm recovery, i want nardil.
One thing i did notice withdrawing from effexor is it got alot harder to get to sleep. Not great that i have to burn out my sleep meds now before nardils well known insomnia. Trazodone and neurontin are coming in, i hope one or both of them will keep me in green.I wanted to switch to trazodone for a while when i was still in hospital, with the motive of not burning out the weak antipsychotic i took. Of course the doc knew better. Now i did almost completely burn it out.
Posted by jedi on June 16, 2011, at 22:54:55
In reply to ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 17:25:03
> I will definitely play it safe.
I'm not going to suggest that anybody plays Russian Roulette with Nardil. I have combined 90mg Nardil with 300mg of bupropion without a problem. Like Larry said, for certain people it could be very dangerous.
Jedi...
"Combinations with other antidepressants
We have found all antidepressants that do not involve significant serotonin reuptake inhibition (e.g., bupropion, trazodone, and tricyclics other than clomipramine) can be safely administered with MAOIs. Combination therapy is worth considering because it may be effective when other approaches have failed."
...Vol. 1, No.6 /June 2002
MAO inhibitors:
An option worth trying in treatment-resistant casesJonathan O. Cole, MD
Senior consultant in psychopharmacology
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical SchoolJ. Alexander Bodkin, MD
Chief, Clinical Psychopharmacology Research Program
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Assistant professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 7:30:02
In reply to Re: ill play safe! » Lamdage, posted by jedi on June 16, 2011, at 22:54:55
So whats left is methylfolate, omega3, excercise and the support of friends. No drug interactions with these^^
Last time i went off antidepressants i didnt immediately fall into deep depression, either. I wont feel anywhere near good but ill make it through. Safely
Posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2011, at 9:17:25
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 7:30:02
So Lamdage,
How many washout days do you have left now, factoring back the Wellbutrin.
Your signature says adhd, the dreamy mild kind. I have that too. I call it either ad(h)d inattentive or add inattentive. Some write ADD-l
When I was off everything recently, the ADD-l was most prominent. With emsam it's improved somewhat.
How you doing today?
fb
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
In reply to Re: ill play safe! » Lamdage, posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2011, at 9:17:25
> So Lamdage,
>
> How many washout days do you have left now, factoring back the Wellbutrin.
>
> Your signature says adhd, the dreamy mild kind. I have that too. I call it either ad(h)d inattentive or add inattentive. Some write ADD-l
>
> When I was off everything recently, the ADD-l was most prominent. With emsam it's improved somewhat.
>
> How you doing today?
>Hey thanks for checking in,
i just came home from a relaxing run through nature.
Hm still some days to come. Im at 150 since today and will stay for the weekend. monday ill go to 75 and then start low dose phenelzine somewhere wednesday.So far ive noticed sleep got a bit of a problem and anxiety around people is up. Other than that im not horrible.
Yes thats what my psychologist called it. Inattentive and not hyperactive.
Its not too much of a problem for me. I find it very hard sometimes to listen to someone talking less than interesting stuff.
I think my "i dont give a hoot" radar goes off quicker than that of others. Thats all :DWhats your experience?
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:20:00
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
Well yeah.. its not hard for me to listen to friends i value. I am forgetful with errands and stuff though
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 3:04:56
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
Lamdage,
Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:27:41
In reply to To Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 3:04:56
> Lamdage,
>
> Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
>
> Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
>
> Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
>
> Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
>
> I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
>
> And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
>
> I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
>
>Hey,
thank you.. well if experieced nardils hardcore efficiency before, i just want to get that "like a bird" feeling back badly.
It still did not arrive yet and i weined myself off most AD i was taking.If its not coming today (it was supposed to come yesterday) im gonna get pissed off hardcore. I too have been looking for ways to obtain nardil, for like 2 months and let me tell you i got VERY angry in the process and i feel rage arising in this moment again. Its typical german idiocy. "discontinued due to severe side effects". Ya right, as if Parnate had less side effects. I have wasted one year.. thanks to a whole bunch of various idiots, ranging from family members, to doctors and myself, because i was naive enough to run in the open knife my family has held towards me.
Anyway. When i can say sth. about the sources ill get back to you.
Lamdage
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:28:27
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:27:41
and let me tell you my sense of self got RAPED
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 7:31:36
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:27:41
> > Lamdage,
> >
> > Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
> >
> > Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
> >
> > Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
> >
> > Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
> >
> > I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
> >
> > And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
> >
> > I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
> >
> >
>
> Hey,
>
> thank you.. well if experieced nardils hardcore efficiency before, i just want to get that "like a bird" feeling back badly.
> It still did not arrive yet and i weined myself off most AD i was taking.
>
> If its not coming today (it was supposed to come yesterday) im gonna get pissed off hardcore. I too have been looking for ways to obtain nardil, for like 2 months and let me tell you i got VERY angry in the process and i feel rage arising in this moment again. Its typical german idiocy. "discontinued due to severe side effects". Ya right, as if Parnate had less side effects. I have wasted one year.. thanks to a whole bunch of various idiots, ranging from family members, to doctors and myself, because i was naive enough to run in the open knife my family has held towards me.
>
> Anyway. When i can say sth. about the sources ill get back to you.
>
>
> Lamdage
>You're so lucky that you're experienced Nardil efficacy before, so at least you know that is hope, real HOPE.
My only moment of bliss, normalcy, whatever, was with Anafranil, but it was transient for a couple of times.That moments were the only good things that happen in a decade.I mean, I got married, I have a beautiful wife, a kind - she's an angel...but all these were good thing that I feel that happen in a dream.The Anafranil Days were rock solid memories.I want back that.
If Germany which seems more open minded than other countries from UE, you had so much problems and you had to endure hell to get your hands on Nardil, for me it seems nearly impossible to have the chance to initiate an Phenelzine trial.Shrinks from my country jump from their chairs yelling "devil!" when they hear about MAOI's.
Anyways, I hope I'll find some online pharma with your help, meantime i'll check again and again Google :)).
I'm very curious about your trial, looking forward for you getting well.
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:50:44
In reply to Re: To Lamdage » Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 7:31:36
Yes there should be good times ahead, indeed. Im just very very impatient/angry that it takes so long.
45mg of the NEW pfizer nardil was very efficient for me, almost too efficient.
Now with the enteric coating/casules i can adjust dosages in like 3,7 mg steps and i have tons of space for increasing the dosage.
Hopefully my efforts of mimicking the old nardil will pay off in terms of needing less of a dosage and needing less sleep meds, too.Did anafranil poop out?
Are all MAOI banned in your country? Did you try selegiline yet? Well anyway, id go straight for the nardil if you can do this despite your countrys ignorance.
CheersLd
> You're so lucky that you're experienced Nardil efficacy before, so at least you know that is hope, real HOPE.
>
> My only moment of bliss, normalcy, whatever, was with Anafranil, but it was transient for a couple of times.That moments were the only good things that happen in a decade.I mean, I got married, I have a beautiful wife, a kind - she's an angel...but all these were good thing that I feel that happen in a dream.The Anafranil Days were rock solid memories.I want back that.
>
> If Germany which seems more open minded than other countries from UE, you had so much problems and you had to endure hell to get your hands on Nardil, for me it seems nearly impossible to have the chance to initiate an Phenelzine trial.Shrinks from my country jump from their chairs yelling "devil!" when they hear about MAOI's.
>
> Anyways, I hope I'll find some online pharma with your help, meantime i'll check again and again Google :)).
>
> I'm very curious about your trial, looking forward for you getting well.
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:54:52
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:50:44
I think a combo of aurorix, selegiline and neurontin might come close.. thats what i was considering. But its very pricey and it has one big drawback: its not the mother of all bombs, nardil :D
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:14:31
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:50:44
I can feel your impatience and anger/ frustration that things move so slow.I cant beleive what some of us do to make us a way on the road to recovery.I'ts much more simple to go and get some crack !You're really brave.
Unfortunately Maoi's in my country doesn't exist, like never happen.
Anafranil keeps me on a thin line between the black hole of despair and blah.I dunno if it's poop out but im not even close near normalcy.I guess I can't ask for much from clomipramine.
I tried selegiline for a few times and i was dissapointed.Mental energy-up, anxiety-waay up, depression untouched.On top of that I had a lot of problem with vascular constriction, cold extremities, shivering in the middle of summer.
Manerix is also a Maoi, so its banned.For me, the next step will be Nardil and Parnate if the first wont't work...
Cheers and thanks for help ;)!
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:23:12
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:14:31
thinking...how's life; one of the oldest AD, discovered by mistake and derived from a tuberculosis med, seems to be the future REAL antidepressant...
At least big pharmacy concerns should struggle to make safer and time release and with less side effects MAOI's
Posted by zonked on June 19, 2011, at 8:40:18
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:14:31
> Unfortunately Maoi's in my country doesn't exist, like never happen.Curious, where do you live? Does your government's regulatory agency allow imports from other countries?
The last time I went to Mexico, I made certain to stock up on Xanax. (Tafil en Espanol.)
:-)
-z
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