![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 7, 2011, at 22:43:57
I have tried every drug possible to treat the extreme lower back pain and radial left leg pain that I have. The lower back pain is 20 years in the making (I'm 33), but has been severe for about 6 months. The left leg pain that is almost 100% severe, debilitating, crippling nerve pain has been present since Thanksgiving. I'm in the process of gathering opinions from surgeons. Surgery is absolutely necessary, I just can't decide how aggressive I want to go at this point in my life. My wife is due April 22, I am unemployed, and need to get a job and get on with my life and want to be an able bodies father and husband. Any tales regarding various back surgery experiences would be appreciated (amiwjoseph@gmail.com).
Okay, I have literally taken every nerve pain medication, muscle relaxer and narcotic and then some that exists outside of what you get with inpatient hospitalization. Currently I'm taking 800mg Ibuprofen (I wake up every day with fierce flu like body aches) and Percoset 10-325 (2 every 6 hours; my doctor rarely prescribes Percoset this strong). It helps a bit, but not nearly enough to allow me to stand or walk for more than a few minutes. I live in a recliner and cannot sleep in bed. It may be a few weeks until surgery. The Percoset makes me groggy, sleepy and pukey on and off during the day and night, kind of like I'm constantly waking up from surgery. And again, the pain relief is minimal, but it is present because I went last night without taking it as scheduled and paid dearly for it when I finally woke up.
I have been "clean and sober" for 13+ years. I got clean and sober when I was 20. To me they are labels that may not be relevant to me anymore. I am a transsexual male and hated life before transitioning and was constantly trying to destroy myself through many means. I wonder now, as it has been determined that my bipolar diagnosis was incorrect (I'm just a transsexual), if I really have an addiction problem. I have no desire whatsoever to drink, but I am seriously considering smoking medicinal marijuana rather than taking Percoset until I have surgery and am recovered from the pain caused by surgery.
I am willing to "blow" 13+ years of being "clean" if I am able to experience pain relief. The Percoset makes me high, but also kind of delirious and, well, like I'm just waking up from surgery. Marijuana never made me feel that way. So I would be more productive, more oriented, more awake and less pukey if I used medicinal marijuana. I've never smoked medicinal marijuana, so I cannot speak about pain relief, but theoretically and based on tons of research, if it's the right strain, it does provide significant pain relief.
Percoset is addictive, medicinal marijuana is not. Percoset causes nausea, disorientation, sleepiness, etc. Medicinal marijuana has a much different effect and does not cause nausea which is HUGE for me. Percoset is terrible for my liver, short term use of medicinal marijuana is not going to give me lung cancer. Percoset is chemicals, medicinal marijuana is natural and unadulterated. Based on this stuff medicinal marijuana is hands down better for me. I just don't have prior experience with medicinal marijuana which is much different than what I used to smoke.
I live close to an area of the country (not California) where medicinal marijuana is grown, just not legally. I've already had a "consultation" and now I just have to decide if I want to go that route. I really believe that I could try it a few times and if it doesn't help with pain then I will be able to walk away from it. I don't need drugs and alcohol anymore and in fact, now that I'm in the right body and am seen correctly by society, I want to live life raw and real. I hated life for 31 years and have a lot to make up. Yes it would seem weird to smoke, but if it helps, I believe it is healthier than Percoset and other narcotics and pain management medications, and that I can stop it and will want to stop it when I no longer need it. I feel like I'm not trying to prove myself to anyone or prove anything to anyone. I just want quality of life and deserve it.
I have discussed this with my wife, therapist and psychiatrist and they all understand the dilemma and support whatever decision I make. For me I'm just hung up on words like "clean" and "relapse" and what not even though I don't consider using medicinal marijuana short term and as prescribed a relapse. I guess I am more hung up on what others think. If someone says I am back at day one, then they are judgmental and lack empathy, and when it comes down to it, I'd rather be in less pain and more comfort even if it means I'm no longer "in recovery." And then there's the "it's illegal" piece and I don't want to go to jail nor does my pregnant wife want me to go to jail.
You get me at this point. Thoughts? Psychotropic medications I am taking are 200mg Seroquel at night, 1mg Klonopin morning and night and 1800mg Neurontin morning and night (for sleep and nerve pain management although it doesn't work for pain, not sure about sleep because of pain). I am in the process of going off of Seroquel and am already off of Lithium with no bad reactions and in fact I feel better off of it but plan on staying on Klonopin long term for anxiety. Okay folks, please help me hear the right answer for me!
Posted by twinleaf on January 7, 2011, at 23:44:24
In reply to Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by BearNCrow on January 7, 2011, at 22:43:57
To speak just to the surgical part of your question, I had a superb result for a severe disc-related back condition at the Johns Hopkins Spine Center. I can recommend them without reservation..
Posted by Hombre on January 8, 2011, at 3:45:46
In reply to Re: Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by twinleaf on January 7, 2011, at 23:44:24
To hell with what we think, I think you know yourself well enough to make the decision yourself. I cannot imagine what your history and prior gender issue was like, so who's to say what's best.
I will add that one aspect of chronic marijuana use that is not understood by western science is how it can weaken your kidneys/adrenals and cause hormonal changes that may or may not be favorable. The common result is an unmotivated and sort of flat state that can lead to depression. Anxiety and sleep disturbances may also result from chronic use.
If you haven't already, maybe check in with a good Chinese doctor who knows pain management and herbal medicine. You might be able to offset some of the negative effects of marijuana use with herbs, but s/he may not go for that and/or you can't really have your cake and eat it too. You can't ingest strong substances for long period of time without affecting your body's balance. In the meantime, acupuncture may be a useful adjunct to your current treatment and post-op recovery.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 10:52:05
In reply to Re: Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by twinleaf on January 7, 2011, at 23:44:24
Wonderful to hear! So many people regret back surgery. Could you tell me more about your specific back condition and what surgical technique was used and what not? I have my 4th opinion on Thursday. This process is becoming quite burdensome and overwhelming.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 10:58:37
In reply to Re: Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by Hombre on January 8, 2011, at 3:45:46
It would not be chronic use, so I'm not worried about that. I'm much more worried about chronic use of percoset and what not that I will become addicted to and that is so hard on my organs. Funny that you say chronic use can cause a flat affect. I can certainly testify that lithium does that exact same thing and then some. I am a new person from being off of lithium, and it has only been 6 weeks. I know people think why the hell does our opinion matter. I've always trusted folks on dr-bob with a number of issues, so I thought I'd throw this one into the mix. "The People" i.e. thr patients, are the experts in my opinion, especially when it's concerning the fine print. I am using eastern medicine practitioners right now but it isn't helping like in the past.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 10:58:51
In reply to Re: Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by twinleaf on January 7, 2011, at 23:44:24
Wonderful to hear! So many people regret back surgery. Could you tell me more about your specific back condition and what surgical technique was used and what not? I have my 4th opinion on Thursday. This process is becoming quite burdensome and overwhelming.
Posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:33:34
In reply to Re: Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain » twinleaf, posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 10:58:51
I had a 12-year history of low back pain with radiation down my left sciatic nerve. This was due to three ruptured discs, Over time, I got other problems related to arthritis and bone overgrowth - spinal stenosis and bone spurs. I began developing nerve damage on the left side.
The neurosurgeons at Hopkins are young and trained in new minimally invasive and bone remodeling techniques. My surgeon trimmed protruding discs, removed bone spurs, opened up an area of stenosis and generally remodeled the bone so that it was no longer pressing on any nerves. He told me that he spent much of the operation (4 1/2 hours) grinding bone with a diamond drill.
I had consulted at other centers, and was offered a spinal fusion only, which would not have helped me. Now, two months later, I am completely pain-free. I feel as though I had never had any back problems.
You can send your MRI to a surgeon there and get an opinion via e-mail as to whether an operation can help. Look up "Spine Center - John Hopkins" on-line, and choose the surgeon who seems most suited to your situation.
Posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:39:24
In reply to lumbar spine, posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:33:34
It's important for me to emphasis: CHOOSE A YOUNG NEUROSURGEON -40's IS IDEAL. The younger ones are trained in minimally invasive techniques, robotics, use of microscopes and bone remodeling. The older ones usually are not.
Posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2011, at 12:46:45
In reply to Re: lumbar spine, posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:39:24
I agree with the age 40's perfect. I also have stenosis bone spurs and back pain and had slipped not ruptured disc with the radiating pain a few years back. The slipped disc and leg pain healed on its own. But the bone spurs, spinal stenosis and back pain remain. I take nothing for the pain. Only because I don't want to mask a possible fracture as osteoporisis also. And I doubt medicaire would pay for it for me. But I'd sure look into it. Phillipa
Posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 13:09:23
In reply to Re: lumbar spine, posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2011, at 12:46:45
Medicare pays in full. The neurosurgeon has to recommend the operation for you and then payment is no problem. Of course, he would not operate if he had not recommended it!
Posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2011, at 16:41:12
In reply to lumbar spine, posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:33:34
Sounds so good. Happy for you. And maybe bearNcrow, too. I hope so.
> I had a 12-year history of low back pain with radiation down my left sciatic nerve. This was due to three ruptured discs, Over time, I got other problems related to arthritis and bone overgrowth - spinal stenosis and bone spurs. I began developing nerve damage on the left side.
>
> The neurosurgeons at Hopkins are young and trained in new minimally invasive and bone remodeling techniques. My surgeon trimmed protruding discs, removed bone spurs, opened up an area of stenosis and generally remodeled the bone so that it was no longer pressing on any nerves. He told me that he spent much of the operation (4 1/2 hours) grinding bone with a diamond drill.
>
> I had consulted at other centers, and was offered a spinal fusion only, which would not have helped me. Now, two months later, I am completely pain-free. I feel as though I had never had any back problems.
>
> You can send your MRI to a surgeon there and get an opinion via e-mail as to whether an operation can help. Look up "Spine Center - John Hopkins" on-line, and choose the surgeon who seems most suited to your situation.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2011, at 16:51:52
In reply to Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by BearNCrow on January 7, 2011, at 22:43:57
BearNCrow,
I've been sober for a couple of decades, except for prescription med.
I did what sounds like you did--talked to everyone until I decided the only distinction between norco in my case and marijuana were cultural and personal associations (baggage) and legal issues.
I was given some to eat by a relative who has great success with it (osteoarthritis & neuropathic pain). Ingests at night and wakes feeling good.
Didn't work for me :( at all. Oh well. I'm glad I gave it a go.
You sound like you know that different ways of taking MM have different affects. Stanford or UC Davis has been trialing vaporized (I think that the word) MM. There's tincture too.
Good luck with everything :)
fb
Posted by Zyprexa on January 8, 2011, at 20:29:20
In reply to Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by BearNCrow on January 7, 2011, at 22:43:57
Move to California, get a job, smoke legal pot.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 21:23:37
In reply to lumbar spine, posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:33:34
our histories sound so similar! mine has been since age 13ish (i'm 33). i have never had sciatic nerve pain really. now that is all i feel and the pressure in my left leg is building up so much and the shooting pains get worse. it's unbearable. just give me the back pain again and it'll feel like a total cure. my L3/L4, L4/L5, L5/S1 are dead, smashed, black, splooging. i have bone spurs. not sure what all last week's MRI will show in comparison to septembers. i'm most worried about nerve damage. if i was told right now that my left leg will always feel like this or they could amputate it for total pain relief i'd have the saw out in a millisecond. i'm seeing surgeons trained in minimally invasive. the first guy, much older, said spinal fusion is my only option. then a generation younger surgeon said spinal decompression. i was told this past week that the nerve pain can be fixed but that my lower back will always hurt like it does (i can't sleep in a bed and can't stand for longer than 5 minutes!). i know jhu is highly reputable, but also believe cincinnati has some great surgeons and i want to recover at home. i have to believe that i can live like you with less pain. thanks for sharing your story!
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 21:31:22
In reply to Re: lumbar spine, posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 12:39:24
yeah, the first guy i saw is super reputable but pushing 70 and only does spinal fusion. the second guy is literally a generation younger and said fusion is likely in my future but to pursue spinal decompression. the third guy seems middle of the road, probably 40s, although i wasn't a big fan of him and felt he lacked overall confidence and optimism. seeing him monday for MRI report. 4th opinion is scheduled for thursday but if 3rd opinion gives me a better impression and good options i may go with him as he can get me scheduled in about 2 weeks. not sure how old 4th opinion is or what his style is. am trying to get his nurse to call me back.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 21:38:05
In reply to try it... » BearNCrow, posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2011, at 16:51:52
i really appreciate your honest response and sharing your experience. i'm due to leave in 12 hours to make the 3 hour drive each way and am having doubts, of course. i know it won't be a miracle cure, but i feel like i have to try. i just want to feel good about it. i'm not worried about becoming a pothead again. i just need to get through the coming weeks until surgery and maybe some help with early recovery. i don't want to be high or drunk or anything. i just want to feel well and enjoy my new life with a clear head and heart. i'll definitely let everyone know what ends up happening.
Posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 21:41:11
In reply to Re: Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain » BearNCrow, posted by Zyprexa on January 8, 2011, at 20:29:20
if it were only that easy. don't really want to move to california, though. want to be close to family and friends since my wife and i are expecting a baby in late april. funny thing is i moved to cincinnati from LA exactly a year ago. but my life was so drastically different a year ago, smoking pot to see if it helped with pain and stopping if it doesn't wouldn't have felt safe to me at all nor would anyone have supported it. too bad it's not legal everywhere like it should be. soon enough i suppose, if not for me then for others who will need it and benefit from it.
Posted by twinleaf on January 8, 2011, at 22:44:52
In reply to Re: lumbar spine, posted by BearNCrow on January 8, 2011, at 21:23:37
We sound very similar! Same levels. That radiating pain down the leg is indescribable, isn't it?. It sounds as though you are on the right track with finding a surgeon.. It would be reassuring if the surgeon you choose spells out exactly what things he is going to correct - spurs, stenosis, disc or facet abnormalities. You want someone who is able to correct everything, of course.
Good luck to you! Let us know what happens
Posted by roscopeeco on January 9, 2011, at 18:59:14
In reply to Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by BearNCrow on January 7, 2011, at 22:43:57
You didn't get any relief from dilaudid?
Posted by bleauberry on January 10, 2011, at 13:12:20
In reply to Percoset or Medicinal Marijuana for Acute Pain, posted by BearNCrow on January 7, 2011, at 22:43:57
Medical marijuana wins in my opinion. No contest.
The bigger question is, what is causing this pain? I ask this question because of one phrase that jumped out at me...."I wake up everyday with fierce flu like body aches". Ok. That means something. What does it mean to your doctor? Probably nothing except a question mark. What does it mean to me? Well, I'm not a doctor. But what I see as targets that need to be hit without even an attempt at diagnosis or confirmation are....inflammation and infection. Lyme is suspect for sure. If not Lyme, there are plenty of lesser known devastating bugs that are difficult or impossible to identify. That's why just do it....treat it whether you have it or not....so as to rule it in or rule it out. In your case, I would favor a handful of plants that are astounding at both pain and inflammation and some have potent antimicrobial activity as well.
Basically if you study the book Healing Lyme by Stephen Buhner, you will learn a ton. A lot more than you would learn about those topics in med school. And you would learn which botanicals to consider and their mode of action. Plants are medicines, and some of them are more potent than meds, and all of them are more multitasking and multibeneficial than meds.
My Lyme specialist become one by accident. He was a pain/fatigue specialist. Somewhere along the line he noticed that most of his chronic patients got better when they were on antibiotics for some other unrelated reason. From there he grew into an infectious specialist. But his primary treatment for pain patients remains the same....antibiotics with or without a diagnosis of any infection. Why? Because they get better. We may never know why or how, only that ABX is a underused and underappreciated weapon in the war against pain and inflammation.
And of course where there is pain and inflammation, it is common to find stubborn depression. Which is why I have many times mentioned antimicrobial meds and herbs in the treatment of depression. Many Lyme patients, for example, who have depression as their primary symptom, don't get better on antidepressants but do get better on Tetracycline. Just gotta go with the flow and not fight against logic.
Logic...what cause morning flu like aches? Inflammation. What causes inflammation? 1)Infection; 2)a confused immune system. In either case the treatment is the same, but is distinctly diffferent than a life sentence to pain pills. There are potent plants out there that could amaze you.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.