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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by evenintherain on April 14, 2010, at 21:18:14
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people?, posted by manic666 on April 13, 2010, at 13:57:41
Economist, I hope you keep us updated in your search. This thread is really interesting. I was especially intrigued to hear how many of the non-cognitive symptoms of schizophrenia I could also relate to (tense, irritable, emotionless, isolated and withdrawn), though I know they can overlap w/depression.
Does anyone find anti-psychotics reduce anhedonia? I have only tried Remeron -- short trial, no positive results.
Posted by conundrum on April 14, 2010, at 22:02:30
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people?, posted by evenintherain on April 14, 2010, at 21:18:14
If you are saying that remeron is an antipsychotic, it is not. It is just an antidepressant, or maybe you are saying thats the only drug you've tried?
Posted by Economist on April 14, 2010, at 22:21:19
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people?, posted by evenintherain on April 14, 2010, at 21:18:14
Hi evenintherain,
I'll be lurking around. If I don't post anything it means nothing worked. The moment I start to feel the fluttering of some emotion I will so definitely post something. And shout with joy out my window, for that matter.
Antipsychotics don't really help with negative symptoms as an isolated problem. They do away with the positive symptoms, which can then allow the person to function better socially, etc.
Posted by evenintherain on April 14, 2010, at 23:12:48
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » evenintherain, posted by conundrum on April 14, 2010, at 22:02:30
no, my bad. for some reason i thought my pdoc said remeron was an anti-psychotic (in addition to it's a/d properties). but i don't remember much from that time period, so i am probably mistaken.
Posted by evenintherain on April 14, 2010, at 23:15:22
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » evenintherain, posted by Economist on April 14, 2010, at 22:21:19
"Antipsychotics don't really help with negative symptoms as an isolated problem. They do away with the positive symptoms"
That's too bad (though highly unsurprising).
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2010, at 7:09:10
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » evenintherain, posted by Economist on April 14, 2010, at 22:21:19
Have you tried amisulpride? Abilify? Geodon? Those are the APs that I would try if I were attempting to treat negative symptoms.
Have you tried adding Prozac to an AP - perhaps Zyprexa? Pharmacokinetic interactions are minor.
I hope someone smarter than me will be able to come up with an innovative solution. I can appreciate your predicament. The symptomatology of my bipolar depression looks a great deal like the deficit syndrome.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/anhedschiz.htm
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/156/4/637
- Scott
Posted by conundrum on April 15, 2010, at 13:30:41
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » Economist, posted by SLS on April 15, 2010, at 7:09:10
Those drugs you've suggested other than amulsipride could help with motivation since they block post synaptic serotonin receptors.
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2010, at 14:35:31
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » SLS, posted by conundrum on April 15, 2010, at 13:30:41
> Those drugs you've suggested other than amulsipride could help with motivation since they block post synaptic serotonin receptors.
Amisulpride is a preferential DA presynaptic autoreceptor antagonist. At lower dosages, it is thought to increase the synthesis and release of dopamine. Many people glean an antidepressant effect from it that includes increases in motivation. It also acts as an antagonist of 5-HT7 receptors, which may actually be the mechanism most responsible for its antidepressant potential.
- Scott
Posted by conundrum on April 15, 2010, at 17:35:14
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people?, posted by SLS on April 15, 2010, at 14:35:31
Yeh I know how amulsipride works, but all the other atypicals you mentioned are D2 antagonists and 5HT7 blockers as well as blocking the 5HT2A and 2C receptors, increasing norepinephrine in dopamine in the mPFC and decreasing it in other areas of the brain. Amulsipride doesn't do that I believe that is also important for increasing motivation.
I think thats why low dose prozac makes me more motivated. Amulsipride might help but I think the others would help even more if one is not to sensitive to histamine blockers.
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2010, at 18:24:41
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » SLS, posted by conundrum on April 15, 2010, at 17:35:14
> Yeh I know how amulsipride works,
Which of its properties do you think is most responsible for its observed antidepressant effects?
> but all the other atypicals you mentioned are D2 antagonists and 5HT7 blockers as well as blocking the 5HT2A and 2C receptors,
It's too bad that ritanserin wasn't developed as an augmenter of APs and ADs.
> increasing norepinephrine in dopamine in the mPFC and decreasing it in other areas of the brain. Amulsipride doesn't do that
So, do you feel that the atypical APs are more potent as antidepressants than amisulpride? I tried sulpiride once. I experienced an immediate improvement for the first few hours after my initial dose. Thereafter, nothing. I'm guessing that the drug caused a release of dopamine until vesicular stores were depleted.
- Scott
Posted by conundrum on April 15, 2010, at 19:48:19
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » conundrum, posted by SLS on April 15, 2010, at 18:24:41
This is all theoretical because i've never taken an AP, but I would say yes the other ones are probably more effective for those reasons I listed. Its like they've used the same rational drug creation methods that created less effective SSRIs and are making more selective APs. Sometimes dirty is good. Yes it is ashame about ritaserin.
I don't know why it stopped working for you, whether the storage vesicles were emptied or what. I just think the dopaminergic system downregulates really fast and effectively.
This is all theoretical. In my original post I said those drugs "could" help more with motivation. There are good reasons they should, but I haven't tried any APs.
Posted by evenintherain on April 16, 2010, at 12:27:28
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » conundrum, posted by Economist on April 13, 2010, at 8:13:59
Economist, I just saw this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVCIlYnebIg
While it doesn't offer any suggestions it may be good to know that there are intelligent people who understand the problem exists and are working to find help?
Posted by manic666 on April 16, 2010, at 13:23:26
In reply to video - treating the negative symptoms of schiz » Economist, posted by evenintherain on April 16, 2010, at 12:27:28
i have just seen a vid on schiz//an i am puzzled , a lot of syptoms are scary// you no like talking to people that arnt real an loads of really sh*tty stuff// now tell me what is negative schitz it nothing like the real thing //an as the vid posted by the last poster there is no cure//it sounds to me like depression but your saying its not//an nobody seems to be sure it what it means///can any one tell me how it differs from depression, an it sure anit like the real schiz //im confused the real an the negative are not remotly the same , in any shape or form,//in depression i show all the thread writer,s syptoms %100 the same
Posted by evenintherain on April 16, 2010, at 13:51:00
In reply to Re: video - treating the negative symptoms of schiz, posted by manic666 on April 16, 2010, at 13:23:26
Manic, I think the symptoms overlap. The negative symptoms of schitzophrenia (I think w/schitzophrenia these are generally seen in addition to the positive delusion-type symptoms) can include:
problems with motivation
social withdrawal
flat feeling (anhedonia)
diminished affective responsiveness, speech, and movement
trouble making or keeping friends
irritability
insomnia
trouble w/concentration
etc.Sounds like depression. Problem is these symptoms are not helped (and can be made worse) by increasing Serotonin, which seems to be the focus for most anti-depressant treatments.
I think it just goes to show we really don't know how the brain works.
Frustrating, but it might help (ever so slightly) to see people actually working on it.
Posted by Economist on April 16, 2010, at 22:30:25
In reply to video - treating the negative symptoms of schiz » Economist, posted by evenintherain on April 16, 2010, at 12:27:28
evenintherain,
Thanks for this video. I'm glad there are researchers out there who take this problem seriously. I suppose understanding the negative symptoms is the first step to finding treatment in the future.
Thanks again.
Posted by manic666 on April 17, 2010, at 3:36:03
In reply to Re: video - treating the negative symptoms of schiz » manic666, posted by evenintherain on April 16, 2010, at 13:51:00
are got you , it dosent respont to ad,s //an they could in fact make it worse// you see nobody told me that on this thread ,not is terms i can understand, or mabye they did and i missed it//i am the first to admit i have little intelligence , but put like an said simply was cool thank you///but as there is no cure or real help does that mean the medical system is not %100 sure of the illness an put it on the back burner ,so to speak// i mean i could see the prob with a p doc if you explained the illness he would think it mirrors depression an treat it as such ,makeing the patient worse/// if someone in england told a p doc of the illness //he would not have a clue what the patient is on about//as i have said before i have shown p doc ,meds on there own computer ,an they act like dorks an say //well blow me thats a new one on me.so a chance of getting this illness over to an english p.doc is nil//thanks again for explaining to me
Posted by pedr on April 17, 2010, at 10:14:50
In reply to Any med that made you gain interest in people?, posted by Economist on April 10, 2010, at 15:02:48
> Have absolutely no interest in catching up on the lives of my friends. I ask them questions for hours but it just feels like such a chore. It's not supposed to feel this way. I don't even have any emotional reaction to the things they tell me. I have no thoughts or opinions regarding the things they say and must fake a socially-acceptable emotional response every single time. Been like this for two years now.
>
> This pervasive lack of interest applies to activities, too. But my main concern is people right now.
>
> Any meds that helped you fix this? Would like to hear actual experiences with meds that helped you, not suggestions for possible medications to take.Hi Economist,
I am late to this thread and my 2d is that the sentences you've used here are textbook phrases of someone with depression.
> just feels like such a chore
> must fake a socially-acceptable emotional response
> This pervasive lack of interest applies to activities, toothis is precisely what depression does to us. You don't care jack about jack.
If you haven't done so already, find a PDoc who will keep trying meds until you respond and start to give a cr@p about things. Even a little cr@p.
Pete
Posted by manic666 on April 17, 2010, at 13:49:22
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » Economist, posted by pedr on April 17, 2010, at 10:14:50
i thought it was only me.i carnt for the life of me get my head round this thread//. i have seen a million people ask the same questions, an get the same answer ??? DEPRESSION/// as far as i can read an see, nobody in mental illness gives a second thought to these claim,s //only a few independant bodies of no credabilaty//this new dont give a f*** sindrome will never get diagnosed// because it seems a moderate deppression , not a full blown one// or we wouldent have the strenth to put pen to paper//
Posted by evenintherain on April 17, 2010, at 15:26:59
In reply to pete, posted by manic666 on April 17, 2010, at 13:49:22
I have these symptoms and agree that I suffer from depression, not schizophrenia (I have always suffered from some types of depressive symptoms). Just find it interesting that some of the symptoms overlap. This may give some people some insight into how the brain works? Also, it looks like Economist has experienced the positive symptoms of schizophrenia in the past, so her diagnosis might be more in line with that. In the end, I don't think we care about what diagnosis we get, just that we have something to help our symptoms. Unfortunately, this is very difficult (for lots of different people with lots of different problems), hence the need for this board!
Posted by conundrum on April 17, 2010, at 20:34:29
In reply to Re: pete » manic666, posted by evenintherain on April 17, 2010, at 15:26:59
Why manic? because people with symptoms like mine and economist will be made 10x worse on SSRIs. Since there is no diagnosis for anhedonia we have to take the SSRI, SNRIs, SARIs before we can try anything else. If there were a new diagnosis for anhedonia they could start with drugs that could actually help people instead of make them more blunted.
Posted by manic666 on April 18, 2010, at 12:29:55
In reply to pete, posted by manic666 on April 17, 2010, at 13:49:22
i can see it a problem for people //how does anyone no they have this, can a p doc pinpiont it //an what if no cure can he do for you//if he gives wrong meds, how will you no till you are unconcious or feeling a little better//it is a dilema for you an a doc//what can he do beside go through the hole med chart, putting you at risk an his job if it goes wrong//i mean even in cancer they can help an releave the illness even if they carnt save you //but your saying you have nothing an not a deal of backup //is it that rare they put it to the back burner of mental probs//its not life threatening but it sure as hell piss,s you off i can see//you have an unseen foe, an no med to take the fight to,,sorry stay safe
Posted by g_g_g_unit on April 19, 2010, at 19:29:55
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » Economist, posted by pedr on April 17, 2010, at 10:14:50
nicotine (the lozenges)
Posted by SLS on April 20, 2010, at 6:18:02
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people?, posted by g_g_g_unit on April 19, 2010, at 19:29:55
> nicotine (the lozenges)
Do you take it on a regular schedule every day or more like a PRN?
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on April 21, 2010, at 3:30:45
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on April 20, 2010, at 6:18:02
> > nicotine (the lozenges)
>
> Do you take it on a regular schedule every day or more like a PRN?
>
>
> - Scottum, i bought them last week initially to help me study for a work-related course i had enrolled in. i've since dropped out of the course, but have taken them twice since then, just PRN to help me focus on stuff.
i found the effect pretty powerful - the euphoria was comparable to low-dose dexedrine for me, and it definitely relieved the negative symptoms of my depression (i felt more motivated and chatty). i'm worried about addiction so may just continue on a PRN basis; however the psychoactivation it provides, alongside minimal CNS, is pretty attractive. i'm thinking about maybe trying the patch in combination with something like memantine to prevent tolerance, though i don't know how viable that is long-term.
have you ever used nicotine (as opposed to cigarettes) therapeutically?
Posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 6:09:32
In reply to Re: Any med that made you gain interest in people? » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on April 21, 2010, at 3:30:45
> have you ever used nicotine (as opposed to cigarettes) therapeutically?
No. My only experience with nicotine was a short stint with smoking pipes and cigars as a teen. I didn't notice any energizing effect, even when I smoked enough to feel sick. Oh, well.
What sources of information do you refer to so as to speculate that memantine might be useful to prevent tolerance? I hope it works for you.
- Scott
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