Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 933837

Shown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Copper deficiency (low serum copper)

Posted by janejane on January 15, 2010, at 19:47:21

Anybody else have this, or know about it? I asked to get my level tested because I was afraid I had an excess, and it turned out the opposite was true. I've been supplementing, but after 3 months, it's even a little bit lower than it was (last was 57 with reference range 70-155 mcg/dL). I'm not sure what it means, and the doc doesn't seem to, either.

I'm not supplementing zinc other than the 15 mg in my multi. And I take the copper separately so the zinc doesn't compete with it. (My serum zinc was low normal.) I increased my intake since I got the last results so hopefully that'll help.

I think I need to ask to get my iron checked since iron deficiency can apparently go with copper deficiency. I've not been really tired or anything, though, so I don't think I'm anemic. I wonder how mercury fits into all of this.

I also wonder how much this affects my depression. It would be weird it it turned out to be the total answer to it. Doubt it, but I certainly wouldn't mind if all I needed to do was to correct this.

My understanding is that copper excess is more common than deficiency, but I thought I'd ask if anyone knows about it. Thanks in advance for any insight anyone has to offer!

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » janejane

Posted by Maxime on January 15, 2010, at 20:14:31

In reply to Copper deficiency (low serum copper), posted by janejane on January 15, 2010, at 19:47:21

Interesting. What are the side effects of low copper? I always worry about those types of things because I am anorexic and my diet is very limited. I'm glad you found out!

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper)

Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2010, at 21:04:57

In reply to Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » janejane, posted by Maxime on January 15, 2010, at 20:14:31

Do you have a copper pot? or pan? heard cooking in them is good for copper. I don't cook anymore. And yes what are the symptoms of copper deficiency? Strange. Love Phillipa

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper)

Posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:37:04

In reply to Copper deficiency (low serum copper), posted by janejane on January 15, 2010, at 19:47:21

I think the only ones that have researched the copper/psychiatry thing is the Pfeiffer Institute (spelling?). They do indepth testing of vitamins and minerals, with copper being a big player, and then treat patients with the appropriate supplements to reverse the deficiencies or excesses. Copper, according to them, does play a big role in psychiatry. Either deficiency or excess are both problematic.

Why it is low is the puzzling question. Where is all the copper going? Is it being displaced by something else and excreted instead?

I am not aware of candida being an issue of gobbling up copper, but it could certainly be an issue of not allowing the copper to properly absorb in the intestines. That's a thought. I only mention that because I know you are looking into candida. Smart move.

In the book Amalgam Illness, it is made scientifically very clear that mercury displaces metals, even itself. For example, someone with longterm low level chronic mercury exposure...such as from amalgams...will very often not show any mercury in their hair samples. Mercury displaced its own movement into hair. As well as other metals. Interpretation of hair tests is usually done by looking at patterns, not amounts, of metals present.

Example. My first hair sample showed elevated mercury, and fairly normal levels/patterns of all other metals. At the time, I thought this was all hocus pocus alternative hogwash. I blew it off. A few years went by. I progressively got worse, month by month, new symptoms, worsening of old ones, slow but sure. Somewhere along the line the mercury/amalgam issue came up again. I had forgotten about it. After all, I had concluded the whole idea was unproven garbage. I was focused on science and proof, not logic. Of course, there really isn't any solid science or proof of anything in psychiatry, so I was misled as most of the crowd is. Anyway, a second hair test, and then a third to confirm, were very strange...no mercury, but hardly anything else either. Even normal amounts of minerals were just hardly detectable. That was clearly mercury's fault, which led to the DMSA urine challenge test, which confirmed the suspicion in a big way.

You asked if mercury could be a factor in the low copper. The answer is yes. But it probably isn't just the copper. Other minerals, enzymes, receptors, and glands are likely impacted too, which all have an impact on our neurotransmitter function, and of course the resulting mood disorders.

Low copper in the face of ongoing copper supplementation is a solid clue something is going on. Top culprits, given your history and situation, as I see it, are mercury and possibly candida. Those two almost always go together.

For the immediate future, since you are kind of trapped from doing any chelation as long as there is suspected amalgam under crowns or root canals, is to increase the doses of supplementation. Much of what you are currently taking seems to be getting wasted, displaced, or not absorbed. So it may take higher amounts to bridge the roadblock. Selenium is recommended to help neutralize mercury's effects.

And of course, maybe low copper doesn't mean anything. Maybe that's just the way it is, and is not meaningful? I don't buy that, but it is a stance someone could take. Maybe there is another cause of low copper that I don't know or have forgotten. Mercury and/or candida are for sure at the top of the list in what I am aware of at this point in time.

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper)

Posted by Maxime on January 16, 2010, at 8:39:16

In reply to Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper), posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:37:04

I wonder if there is a way to know that you have low copper by looking at the fingernails.

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » bleauberry

Posted by janejane on January 16, 2010, at 9:21:00

In reply to Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper), posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:37:04

After I got my first results, I read some material written by a guy who I believe was associated with Pfeiffer, but I didn't delve too deeply since I thought the deficiency would be readily corrected by the supplementation. Another review seems to be in order.

I think I may also look for a new holistic doc (who takes my insurance) as the two I've seen so far haven't been too helpful. Hopefully I can find someone experienced with mercury and candida.

It seems like I should get other mineral levels tested, doesn't it? Iron for sure. I think I mentioned in the other post that one doc did test for zinc and it was low normal. It'd be really interesting to see where selenium is. I noticed that when I got a Vitamin D test last year (also too low), the doc also ordered calcium and magnesium. Those were both normal so at least those supplements seem to be working.

I don't know if this might be another clue, but I did have thyroid tests run last summer and everything was pretty well in range, except TSH was a little low at 0.5 uIU/ml. Doc said she thought I might be slightly hyper. She also tested for celiac and those tests were normal. I don't know why there wasn't a test for casein. Is that not worthwhile?

One thing I remember reading about copper deficiency is that it can be associated with high LDL. Mine is usually around 100, which is quite good. So maybe somewhat low serum copper is normal and acceptable for me? Except for depression, I'm not sure I have other symptoms. Then again, I should probably try to bring levels up anyway, since deficiency is also associated with aneurysm, which is pretty scary.

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » Maxime

Posted by janejane on January 16, 2010, at 9:30:49

In reply to Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper), posted by Maxime on January 16, 2010, at 8:39:16

> I wonder if there is a way to know that you have low copper by looking at the fingernails.

Interesting question. I don't remember reading anything regarding copper and nails, though you probably already know about white marks showing possible zinc deficiency. I'm actually glad you mentioned this, because I seem to remember that iron deficiency can show up in fingernails too, so I'll have to look that up.

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » janejane

Posted by KaylaBear on January 16, 2010, at 15:40:17

In reply to Copper deficiency (low serum copper), posted by janejane on January 15, 2010, at 19:47:21

iHerb has an excellent library about minerals, supplements, and herbs. There are links to research studies for most substances.

"In addition, if you are taking iron or large doses of vitamin C, you may need extra copper. Ideally, you should take copper at least 2 hours apart from these two nutrients, so that they don't interfere with each other's absorption."

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21696

I also read NAC may deplete copper..have to find the source for ya. :)

 

Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » KaylaBear

Posted by janejane on January 16, 2010, at 17:25:39

In reply to Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » janejane, posted by KaylaBear on January 16, 2010, at 15:40:17

Thanks, KaylaBear. iherb is my favorite place to shop for supplements.

I already knew about the Vitamin C which is why I stopped taking extra when I found out about the deficiency. I also stopped taking extra selenium, because I was afraid that might affect it. Turned out neither made a difference. I hadn't been taking iron, so it couldn't have been that. I already mentioned the zinc. It's just very weird.

I'm not taking NAC, but thanks for mentioning it because I didn't know about that one.

 

That's it then

Posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 17:58:03

In reply to Re: Copper deficiency (low serum copper) » Maxime, posted by janejane on January 16, 2010, at 9:30:49

>
> Interesting question. I don't remember reading anything regarding copper and nails, though you probably already know about white marks showing possible zinc deficiency. I'm actually glad you mentioned this, because I seem to remember that iron deficiency can show up in fingernails too, so I'll have to look that up.

differing zinc copper ratios are needed depending on thryoid function..abd these levels take a long time to change BTW.

Here's an old post of mine
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031122/msgs/283745.html

(read all thread and esp link to Elaine's post)

If you tended towards hyper side TSH 0.5 then the usual supplement ratios of 8:1 were too high in zinc for you. A better ratio would be about 4:1 probably (3:1 is hyper which is like TSH<0.3 or lower).

Also I now have lowish levels in ALL minerals as I drink a LOT of water per day (due to a low ADH level-thirst high). If you drink over 3-4 litres a day you usually need to add back in all mnerals and even (over a long perdiod of time sometrace elements)..or get them by grwoing or buying food with a lot of these minerals in the soil.(which probably happened in cave men days). Some athlete can sweat up to 11 litres of water a day which need to be replaced, so they may be in a simialr position to me.
So as well as the water which these days is filtered even by the councils etc, so you dont get the benefit of all the minerals you would get, I need to look at getting a good balance of all minerals.

In the end I wen low on copper and just added a length of copper piepe to one out of twelve bottles of my water , fixed my lack of copper!

Also a friend of mine (bob) and me hypothesize that we need a mineral balance simiar to where we came from - like the environment where we were born and our ancestors came from. we believe this is individual , and we get problems when we move to a place witha differing balance of minerals..due to genetics and receptor balnce/senesitivity/function etc
semmed to happen to me when I moved from a high mineral are with hard water (Brisbane) to a soft water area with low minerals (especially low calcium..sydney..got osteo and many teeth holes, never had before!
so consider what you were used to if you shifted residence.


 

Re: That's it then » tea

Posted by KaylaBear on January 16, 2010, at 18:04:31

In reply to That's it then, posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 17:58:03

Tea, that's great information. Do you know if drinking mineral water (or Fiji water) would be helpful?

 

Re: That's it then » tea

Posted by janejane on January 16, 2010, at 18:37:57

In reply to That's it then, posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 17:58:03

Thanks, Tea! That was really helpful. I will try to shoot for a 4:1 zinc to copper ratio.

It's interesting what you said about sweating because I do perspire a lot. We filter our water as well. Maybe I need to bump up all minerals a bit...

I really like your and Bob's theory about mineral balance and the environment, too. I bet climate differences could factor in as well.

 

Re: That's it then

Posted by alchemy on January 19, 2010, at 18:09:54

In reply to That's it then, posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 17:58:03

Weird. Most of the studies I've read indicate that those with depression have lower levels of zinc. And for some increasing zinc has a positive effect.

 

Re: That's it then - studies remarks

Posted by tea on January 20, 2010, at 15:49:56

In reply to Re: That's it then, posted by alchemy on January 19, 2010, at 18:09:54

> Weird. Most of the studies I've read indicate that those with depression have lower levels of zinc. And for some increasing zinc has a positive effect.

A inherent "failing" with studies in general. They can only be feasibly designed to look at "part" of the picture- usually ONLY one thing at a time, due to time and cost restraints as well as complications of separating out the various components.
Yes, most people do benefit from adding in zinc as "most" people are lowish on it , and so given a random sample population that would be an EXPECTED result :)


However as an individual we each must check if We ourselves are low on it. A quick check is to look at your fingernails. In everyone I know (including all family members) where spots on fingernails occurred as a indicator of zinc deficiency. It does in everyone I know of, but this does not mean it will in everyone. My zinc deficiency stopped when I went onto thryoid meds though, as did the fingernail "spots", except occasionally when I am short of minerals. I don't need to top up a lot in zinc anymore, except perhaps occasionally in a multi.
The above poster was "highish on thryoid hormones(the low TSH) so needs to lean towards a higher ratio of copper oin her mineral topup.
Her water supply is filtered so the usual supply of minerals she gets from drinking water is not obtained.
Some poeple drink very little water and get minerals via fruits and veges. The food we eat has minerals from the soil(although often depleted), the water we drink used to have minerals from the soil as well.



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