![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jeroen on August 22, 2009, at 17:15:09
amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis is what i have now
My doctor is going to add Seroquel XR to my abilify and i hope it will help if not, shall i add amantadine, it has releaved some of my depression symptoms in the past... i need something after 11 years struggle
Posted by maxime on August 22, 2009, at 18:01:37
In reply to amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis, posted by Jeroen on August 22, 2009, at 17:15:09
If amantadine helped in the past, chances are it will help again. You might as well try it to relieve some of the depression even psychosis is your biggest problem right now.
Posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2009, at 21:03:27
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » Jeroen, posted by maxime on August 22, 2009, at 18:01:37
Jeroen ll years of psychosis I was thinking you are very young? May I ask what your age is now? And Maxime is familiar with the drug so I'd follow her confidence it will again work for you. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on August 23, 2009, at 0:53:27
In reply to amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis, posted by Jeroen on August 22, 2009, at 17:15:09
> amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis is what i have now
>
>
> My doctor is going to add Seroquel XR to my abilify and i hope it will help if not, shall i add amantadine, it has releaved some of my depression symptoms in the past... i need something after 11 years struggleXR isn't terribly different from regular in my opinion from trying it... did faintly provide more coverage over the day. But you may have luck.
I wouldn't be 100% surprised if amantadine relieved depression if somehow an AP caused some "good dopamine" loss... though the science behind that is a little bit different than one might think... Wellbutrin can be added to patients with schizophrenia, psychosis, etc.
I don't see the psychiatric reason though for amantadine -- its generally used to improve EPS caused by antipsychotic therapy.
Alone, its an old anti-influenza drug, can't say that taking it for long periods of time is really going to do something except downgrade the effectiveness of the antipsychotic depending on a vast number of issues.
But, if it "worked", I suppose its worth a try.
-- Jay
Posted by bleauberry on August 23, 2009, at 16:42:10
In reply to amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis, posted by Jeroen on August 22, 2009, at 17:15:09
> amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis is what i have now
>
>
> My doctor is going to add Seroquel XR to my abilify and i hope it will help if not, shall i add amantadine, it has releaved some of my depression symptoms in the past... i need something after 11 years struggleAh hah. A clue. Finally.
Amantadine, more than anything else, is an anti-viral and has other poorly studied anti-microbial properties.
I think a long time ago I mentioned you might have Lyme disease, or some other pathogenic infectious type disease, since treatment resistant psychosis and depression is seen with some of those sicknesses. It usually results in a misdiagnosis of psychosis and depression, which are actually just the outward signs of an infectious organism burrowing in the nervous system and brain. Viruses are a cause of psychosis, even simple everyday viruses can totally transform someone's mental health for the worse.
If that is the case, in light of a previous good experience with Amantadine, and in light of the perplexing responses to supposedly appropriate meds for the "supposed" condition, no amount of any antipsychotic is going to convince those organisms to pack their bags and leave. My best guess is that the short response you got to Seroquel was its strong antihistamine effect reducing brain swelling, and then tolerance set in. Pure guess, but makes sense.
Strange as it may sound, well, actually I've been saying these strange things for a while now, your magic could likely come from a drug that is not used to treat depression or psychosis. I'm thinking things like Doxycyline, Diflucan, DMSA, Artesmisin.
I wish you could get your hands on some common herbal capsules such as Olive Leaf Extract or Grapefruit Seed Extract. Just to see if you Herx, if for no other reason. That in itself would be more diagnostic than any diagnosis you have had in recent history.
And this I've said a bunch of times, but pubmed has case reports of treatment resistant psychotic depression that responded to the combination of antipsychotic+TCA, but not to either alone.
How do you know Amantadine wouldn't help you today? I know the general consensus is that dopamine agonists can worsen psychosis, but with Amantadine it is a different game. Its dopamine agonist property is only a side action of its stronger mechanisms which have nothing to do with dopamine. If your supposed psychosis is from a virus, and Amantadine turns that virus off, your psychosis is bye bye my friend.
Posted by Jeroen on August 23, 2009, at 16:59:54
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis, posted by bleauberry on August 23, 2009, at 16:42:10
the thing is i took amantadine 100 mg before seroquel and after a week i felt better from the amantadine 100 mg!!!!
it had an anti depressant effect on me simular but not strong enough like seroquel
if this is a virus in my system, why do CT scans not reveal its presense, i've done twice so far
thanks bleauberry for your expertism!!!
how are you btw?My doctor has agreed to start Seroquel XR in september
give this a 2 week try to see if tolerance still remains, plasma levels on this appear to be much more stable then the Instant Release
Brain Swelling? i do have to tell you that my head since i got sick, was swollen, bigger, and people even yelled you have a big head when i just got sickmy skin was also white, my emotions dont fully understand its full potential anymore
I'm thinking of some sort of Virus induced Dementia, Psychosis, Schizophrenia
God bless you, i hope one day we find the answer WHAT HAPPENED TO US!!, not only for me but others here too..... i mean that!
Posted by yxibow on August 23, 2009, at 23:53:16
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis, posted by bleauberry on August 23, 2009, at 16:42:10
> > amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis is what i have now
> >
> >
> > My doctor is going to add Seroquel XR to my abilify and i hope it will help if not, shall i add amantadine, it has releaved some of my depression symptoms in the past... i need something after 11 years struggle
>
> Ah hah. A clue. Finally.
>
> Amantadine, more than anything else, is an anti-viral and has other poorly studied anti-microbial properties.Good grief.
Amantadine and rimantadine have been so overused that a number of flu strains are RESISTANT to it.
Conserving antivirals and developing new vaccines and chasing the rainbows by developing new antivirals are the only ways to continue to protect people.
Annual flu shots are one of the best ways to avoid resistance, and I'm not going to listen to lectures on thiomersal.
Guillain-Barré, yes it is a problem, but at least as many people die of the flu as car incidents in the US.
-- Jay
Posted by bleauberry on August 24, 2009, at 19:04:36
In reply to To bleauberry, posted by Jeroen on August 23, 2009, at 16:59:54
Jereon, there really are very few reliable tests for infectious organsims, whether they be viral, bacterial, or fungal. Just one of hundreds of examples, there are thousands of people who tested negative for Lyme disease until after they had been on antibiotics for a while which weakened and killed some of the Lyme enough that now the immune system and the lab tests could see them. Now the tests are positive. Happens a lot.
Many things we can't test for. We can test for a few parasites, but not all of them. We can test for a few viruses, but not all of them. Built into the tests that we can do is a fairly significant error rate. As long as a human being is part of the equation, there will always be error. There is not one flawless person on the planet. Humans make mistakes every day every where, even in labs, even drawing blood, even looking in microscopes.
My preferred diagnostic test is to try a substance, either herb or medicine, that attacks a wide range of whatever we have a hunch about, and see what happens. It is much easier, much cheaper, and makes no mistakes.
My message simply is that a positive response to Amantadine, given your history and symptoms, is a HUGE, I mean H U G E clue!
> the thing is i took amantadine 100 mg before seroquel and after a week i felt better from the amantadine 100 mg!!!!
>
> it had an anti depressant effect on me simular but not strong enough like seroquel
>
> if this is a virus in my system, why do CT scans not reveal its presense, i've done twice so far
>
> thanks bleauberry for your expertism!!!
> how are you btw?
>
>
>
> My doctor has agreed to start Seroquel XR in september
>
> give this a 2 week try to see if tolerance still remains, plasma levels on this appear to be much more stable then the Instant Release
>
>
> Brain Swelling? i do have to tell you that my head since i got sick, was swollen, bigger, and people even yelled you have a big head when i just got sick
>
> my skin was also white, my emotions dont fully understand its full potential anymore
>
> I'm thinking of some sort of Virus induced Dementia, Psychosis, Schizophrenia
>
> God bless you, i hope one day we find the answer WHAT HAPPENED TO US!!, not only for me but others here too..... i mean that!
Posted by bleauberry on August 24, 2009, at 19:14:04
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » bleauberry, posted by yxibow on August 23, 2009, at 23:53:16
> Good grief.
>
> Amantadine and rimantadine have been so overused that a number of flu strains are RESISTANT to it.We're not talking flu here. Jereon's case is in a slightly different arena, no?
>
> Conserving antivirals and developing new vaccines and chasing the rainbows by developing new antivirals are the only ways to continue to protect people.People are suffering NOW. If it were you, you wouldn't want someone else to say conserve this med that might help you or wait 10 years for a new one.
>
> Annual flu shots are one of the best ways to avoid resistance, and I'm not going to listen to lectures on thiomersal.You can have my share of thiomersal, eh-hem, excuse me, mercury. Flu shots are available without thiomersal if you ask, by the way. If someone wants a voluntary dose of mercury, I'm not going to lecture that person. Their choice.
>
> Guillain-Barré, yes it is a problem, but at least as many people die of the flu as car incidents in the US.I don't understand that logic. Let the sick suffer because just as many die in other ways?
>
>
> -- JayWishing you a smooth day.
Posted by yxibow on August 24, 2009, at 23:47:09
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » yxibow, posted by bleauberry on August 24, 2009, at 19:14:04
> > Good grief.
> >
> > Amantadine and rimantadine have been so overused that a number of flu strains are RESISTANT to it.
>
> We're not talking flu here. Jereon's case is in a slightly different arena, no?No. It is irrelevant. Each person that continues to use amantadine for no scientific purpose is -- well here, I'll exaggerate : stockpiling Cipro and taking it because one feels the sniffles makes Cipro more and more useless when the general population around you needs it.
You reduce the effectiveness of a necessary device for real emergencies.
Now with amantadine here, I'm not going to say that there aren't psychiatric purposes -- it was already overused so it isn't of much use for influenza -- I'm just saying the advocacy of using antivirals and antibiotics for psychiatric conditions when there is nothing indicating it endangers the public just as much as the opposite, not vaccinating. One becomes akin to Typhoid Mary.
Rimantidine I'm not sure of... its also become fairly resistant.
And I've seen some posts in the past that have been suggestive of Lyme testing and antibiotic use for everyone when there isn't any reason.
You're entitled to your opinion and there certainly is a place on the board for alternative and complementary medicine, but I think it can scare new people worried about their diagnosis.>
> >
> > Conserving antivirals and developing new vaccines and chasing the rainbows by developing new antivirals are the only ways to continue to protect people.
>
> People are suffering NOW. If it were you, you wouldn't want someone else to say conserve this med that might help you or wait 10 years for a new one.
Of course if I was in an ICU with no choice but vancomycin or linezolid or whatever I would want a doctor to make the best choice for my survival.But it belongs no place outside a hospital where segregation and medical common sense prevail.
MRSA is real.
And its also been shown, controversially perhaps, that if one's T cell count is decent, having a "vacation" from HIV antivirals might prevent resistance in the future in that person if mutation occurs or however.Also, only three drugs are supposed to be used at a time, there have been cases where more have been used and not only is it dangerous to the patient because of organ damage, it also makes things more resistant.
Conserving means using antimicrobial agents in a valid place and not popping antibiotics for a non febrile common cold. A years' worth of doxycycline is overuse. All in moderation.> >
> > Annual flu shots are one of the best ways to avoid resistance, and I'm not going to listen to lectures on thiomersal.
>
> You can have my share of thiomersal, eh-hem, excuse me, mercury. Flu shots are available without thiomersal if you ask, by the way. If someone wants a voluntary dose of mercury, I'm not going to lecture that person. Their choice.
Most, but not all vaccines are now available without thiomersal because of mercury scares. The amount of thiomersal was NEGLIGIBLE.> >
> > Guillain-Barré, yes it is a problem, but at least as many people die of the flu as car incidents in the US.
>
> I don't understand that logic. Let the sick suffer because just as many die in other ways?G-B is RARE in the normal influenza vaccine. We've learned something from the previous swine flu panic which caused an elevated amount of G-B. That's why the swine flu vaccine is being developed carefully.
G-B is unfortunate, and its not always fatal nor always as powerful in people.
There have been far more stories of breakouts of things like mumps because people don't vaccinate their children for religious reasons or because they feel it will cause autism because we don't understand autism very well and people are desperate for answers, some of which aren't terribly scientifically based.
Someone who is not vaccinating their children for "religious reasons" which is in my opinion unfortunately allowed as a reason to not follow local health department regulations, and sends them into a public school is sending a ticking time bomb and as far as I'm concerned, I agree with the dramatization case on Law and Order, its depraved indifference when other children come down with a strain of mumps and some die.> >
> >
> > -- Jay
>
> Wishing you a smooth day.Thanks, and the same to you, we can agree on that, I wouldn't say otherwise.
-- Jay
Posted by Jeroen on August 25, 2009, at 12:42:54
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » yxibow, posted by bleauberry on August 24, 2009, at 19:14:04
i'm sad atm, abilify doesnt block psychosis enough
i will add Seroquel XR and hopefully i will get better im very tired of this disease
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 13:45:01
In reply to i'm sad atm, abilify doesnt block psychosis enough, posted by Jeroen on August 25, 2009, at 12:42:54
> i'm sad atm, abilify doesnt block psychosis enough
>
> i will add Seroquel XR and hopefully i will get better im very tired of this diseaseIf you are so tired of the disease, why don't you try adding Risperdal to Seroquel? You can even continue to take Abilify at the same time, although there are people who believe that Abilify reduces the efficacy other antipsychotics.
Come to think of it, were you on Abilify when the Seroquel worked so well for you?
Please reply.
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on August 25, 2009, at 13:59:04
In reply to Re: i'm sad atm, abilify doesnt block psychosis enough » Jeroen, posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 13:45:01
the abilify blocks the working of seroquel i felt that because i dropped the abilify and i became not well
i'm going to bed now, i'm very tired
it's just not my life that's all
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 14:17:09
In reply to Re: i'm sad atm, abilify doesnt block psychosis enough » Jeroen, posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 13:45:01
> there are people who believe that Abilify reduces the efficacy other antipsychotics.
Oops. I can't come up with any documentation to support my statement here. It must just be me, then.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on August 25, 2009, at 16:00:14
In reply to Re: i'm sad atm, abilify doesnt block psychosis enough, posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 14:17:09
hi i forgot to say that abilify reduce effacy of other anti psychotics, even blocks i think
Posted by bleauberry on August 25, 2009, at 17:18:12
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » bleauberry, posted by yxibow on August 24, 2009, at 23:47:09
Hey, I understand your passionate stand. That's cool. But calm down. You don't need to get so upset.
Forget all the debates going on here that are off topic from the thread. They are counterproductive to the topic of the thread. If you want to debate any particular topic in particular, invite me to one of the other forums of pbabble to make your case.
Back to the topic.
Jereon has an unusually troubling med history. Yet, through all the fog, there is actually a hint, a clue...Amantadine. In the eyes of an observant detective, that is one very powerful clue, likely to be unseen, ignored, or scoffed at by casual observers.
My point is, if Jereon were to explore the Amantadine ramifications, it would do nothing to further med resistance in the world.
Med resistance is mostly due to casual use of meds when they were not crucial. Epstein Bar and a dozen other nervous system viruses are very serious with marked psychiatric complications. I think the window should be open for Jereon to consider that angle.
As several international medical books state, "when treatment is not working, one must reconsider the diagnosis." In this case, Amantadine is a very strong clue.
I wouldn't suggest retrying Amantadine. There are much better ways to test, probe, and treat invisible pathogens in protocols that do not result in med resistance or missed diagnosis. Different topic though. Amantadine is simply a clue that a diagnosis in that direction deserves a closer look.
That's all. Just a humble opinion.
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 17:51:48
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » yxibow, posted by bleauberry on August 25, 2009, at 17:18:12
I think there might be a clue here. Why amantadine "worked" before but not now is interesting.
Amantadine is known to be psychotogenic. This is probably a result of the dopaminergic properties of the drug, which are likely to be the result of increased dopamine release from nerve terminals. This is probably why the drug is efficacious in the treatment of Parkinsons Disease, an illness known to be one of progressively impaired dopaminergic function.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on August 25, 2009, at 19:24:28
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis, posted by SLS on August 25, 2009, at 17:51:48
> I think there might be a clue here. Why amantadine "worked" before but not now is interesting.
>
> Amantadine is known to be psychotogenic. This is probably a result of the dopaminergic properties of the drug, which are likely to be the result of increased dopamine release from nerve terminals. This is probably why the drug is efficacious in the treatment of Parkinsons Disease, an illness known to be one of progressively impaired dopaminergic function.
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott,
I agree with you. Amantadine's dopamine characteristics have to be considered in light of Jereon's history.I do not believe though that it was ever stated that it doesn't work now. It was never tried again. I think the fear is there that it would induce or worsen psychosis a second time around. It is a valid fear, but not at all conclusively predictable. In a hospital setting where Jereon has been for many months, what better place to find out?
I was looking more at the other multiple mechanisms of Amantadine apart from dopamine. Dopamine is one of its lesser mechanisms. Some of its mechanisms are not even known. The ones that are known include antiviral and antibiotic. My LLMD's most successful cocktail for the Lyme syndrome (Borrellia and its common coinfections) includes a trio of drugs with Amantadine being one of them. Who knows what mechanism is working there? No one. Only that it is working.
A positive response by Jereon to ANYTHING deserves a close look. So far that close look has only gone to the antipsychotic class due to a short response to Seroquel. Amantadine got left in the dust. Why? I don't understand that. One powerful clue. We don't know what it means, only that something is there.
Posted by yxibow on August 25, 2009, at 23:41:27
In reply to Re: amantadine helped me in the past ... but psychosis » yxibow, posted by bleauberry on August 25, 2009, at 17:18:12
> Hey, I understand your passionate stand. That's cool. But calm down. You don't need to get so upset.
Sorry if it seemed "overpassionate", but I am entitled to my views of overuse of antibiotics and antivirals. Yes, its off-topic. So I will conclude it here.
> Forget all the debates going on here that are off topic from the thread. They are counterproductive to the topic of the thread. If you want to debate any particular topic in particular, invite me to one of the other forums of pbabble to make your case.Case made, over, done with, agreed. You are entitled to your views.
>
> Jereon has an unusually troubling med history.I don't like to talk about Jeroen or anyone in the third person.
Yes, he has an unusually troubling medical history -- so do I.
But, and I have said before, it is very puzzling to me and contrary to anything that would normally go on in a psychiatric facility in the US, how long he has been in one.
Here, with our health insurance crisis, especially mental health, someone would not spend a year+ in a mental facility even if they are "a danger to themselves" beyond 14, 21, whatever day "holds" because it just doesn't happen. People are released. I know it isn't perfect.Yet, through all the fog, there is actually a hint, a clue...Amantadine. In the eyes of an observant detective, that is one very powerful clue, likely to be unseen, ignored, or scoffed at by casual observers.
Perhaps a clue... but do remember that in large quantities it could upset the balance of things by causing psychosis in someone who has a psychotic spectrum disorder. Or even not so large amounts.
> My point is, if Jereon were to explore the Amantadine ramifications, it would do nothing to further med resistance in the world.
Of course not, I have never said anything above to the contrary, I was making examples about vancomycin and Cipro mostly... not amantadine which is no longer a mainline drug for the flu, and is used in Parkinson's and to an extent for EPS.But if one wants to casually read Wikipedia, yes, amantadine was supposedly used in China in large quantities in chickens. Not a good idea.
> Med resistance is mostly due to casual use of meds when they were not crucial. Epstein Bar and a dozen other nervous system viruses are very serious with marked psychiatric complications. I think the window should be open for Jereon to consider that angle.I do not deny central nervous system viruses are a serious problem. Some are worse than others -- viral meningitis has far less morbidity than bacterial.
Epstein-Barr is present in most all humans. How it is activated into virulence is not completely understood. I know of someone who died of it, so I'm not unaware of consequences of such classes of things.
>
> As several international medical books state, "when treatment is not working, one must reconsider the diagnosis." In this case, Amantadine is a very strong clue.Yes and no.
See, here is where the third person comes out, and I do feel very much for Jeroen, but I cannot understand how his doctors continue to play merry go-round with the same medications.
If one really wants to give a fair trial to, say, an antipsychotic... its not days, its not weeks, but it can be months.
I know months are a long time -- I am an example of, well, its not helpful or useful for my depressive state about where I am, but sometimes I can even estimate the days that things have been tried or used into the 4 digits.
Also its hard to imagine all of these medications being used, other than low potency ones in someone who has or claims to have TD. Which is why I wish there was more thorough neurological testing. What seems tardive is not always so and it takes a trained eye.
I'll just leave it at civility that I am puzzled and have reservations about his care.
Now, in the first person -- Jeroen, this is not meant as any criticism of you as a person, your feelings and wants in life, which are very valid.I just sometimes wish that one thing at a time was given a chance and not 2 medications piled on top and then removed and then added, etc. But that I leave to your doctors.
Best wishes to you and to the former, I hope what I was trying to get across was understood in its sense.
-- Jay
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.