![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by myco on April 9, 2009, at 14:52:15
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by desolationrower on April 9, 2009, at 14:41:46
lol I love the twist you put on things sometimes.
Nobody will convince me that a beer or glass of wine a day is unhealthy though...only if you can have just that one...ie its for enjoyment only - as in the taste.
> well the main reason is that drinking is 'bad'. your doctor doesn't need to bother with evidence, since its obvious that people njoy drinking, and enjoying yourself is unhealthy. the fact that some people drink when they should have a benzo prescription is sort of irrelevant.
>
> -d/r
Posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2009, at 17:36:53
In reply to depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by raisinb on April 9, 2009, at 10:41:20
>I've been drinking 1-2 Jack and cokes per night to wind down.
I dunno how many standard drinks that is.
If you drink enough alcohol to damage your sleep (as I do too often) then that is a problem.
Otherwise it's no big deal.
>You can't *have* a glass of wine with dinner--much less whiskey!"
Well, yes, whiskey.
The hand is quicker than the eye when I drink it straight sometimes.
Once down the hatch....
Posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2009, at 17:42:44
In reply to depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by raisinb on April 9, 2009, at 10:41:20
My psych always says that we live in an entertaining insane Methodist world and I should be careful not to reduce any non-prescribed drug use too much, although, talking of people I certainly don't know, he drew the line at taking cocaine and alcohol for days on end.
It's very kind of him, I guess.
Posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 0:54:59
In reply to depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by raisinb on April 9, 2009, at 10:41:20
Maybe it's because sometimes people with mental health issues self-medicate, rather than alcohol being a cause, so doctors somehow link the 2? But..
My very first PDoc, years ago, told me I could not even have *1* drink because it would affect my depression. Not one per evening, not one per month, not one EVER - for the rest of my life.
She had issues!
She was really mean too. She told me I'd never have the ability to be happy in life. Now this is after but 4 visits with a severe depression. I think she was projecting; I had never seen her smile-not once. It was as if her face would crack.
She scared me away, and she was only the 2nd worst one I ever had, not the worst. Well, I'd only tried 4 altogether..But why on earth do medical schools accept these people?
BTW-I like Bushmills, single malt. i haven't drank whiskey in a long time, but you kinda have me craving one...In the past, when i used to go out alot with friends, once in a while, exsp in the wintertime, we'd do a shot or two of whiskey. It's a nice buzz sometimes, different than wine or beer. I used to make Irish coffees on Christmas Eve too, and have a couple while I was doing all the cooking and party preparation.
Let's have a virtual drink then--cheers
[_] shot glass :)
Posted by yxibow on April 10, 2009, at 2:24:09
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by Phillipa on April 9, 2009, at 12:16:19
> I always felt great on six beers and a mere .25 xanax. Quit as pdoc put me on chloral hydrate and benzos and said no drinking now. He knew what I drank long story of the change in his thinking. No longer take the chloral hydrate and way down on benzos so how come so tired? Used to have so much energy don't get it. Phillipa
I think I posted on this before, and its not to chide -- I'm not a teetotaler, with medication I used to be able to drink on occasion 3 drinks at a bar or something but now I can only carefully drink one drink slowly, give or take.
Alcohol isn't the greatest solution to depression although a number of people turn to it -- yes, you'll get GABA and dopamine activity but in the end the results are very temporary.
Six beers 7 days a week is an amazing liver tolerance and 6300 calories a week, a bit less with light beer, about 2 pounds gain a week unless you burn the calories. If that were shots of liquor, 4300 calories. Still "6 drinks" and a potential for alcohol poisoning for those who have a light weight.
I would say moderation in all things -- a toast to friends, and especially drinking a little bit socially is better than drinking in isolation which has other psychological ramifications -- I can remember a time of binge drinking in college, one of the few times I drunk myself under the table with wine because basically I had rather bad dysthymia.Anyhow, just an opinion
-- Jay
Posted by manic666 on April 10, 2009, at 4:33:02
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by desolationrower on April 9, 2009, at 14:41:46
no no. not drinking instead of a good benzo,we have the benzo ,but its a good A,D were after at the time,an if you carnt find one or not prescibide one , the benzo,s hit critical point to survive, so you go for the booze the only next thing to blot the rot, well mabye hard drugs but we draw the line at thats it is alien territory to us,we are trapped, i didnt become a alcholic , close? but was hospitalised, i was usein the drink as a drug , i used to drink with the boys an to de stress ,i still do but in very small way 2 pints max, desollationrower you forum name tests my dyslexier to the max just jokeing buddy
Posted by desolationrower on April 10, 2009, at 6:27:03
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » raisinb, posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 0:54:59
Well, I went to a doctor of the highest order,
He said I couldn't have a drink for a year.
One glass of wine on my birthday
If my birthday wasn't too very near.
Lord, he must have put me in a state of shock
'cause I made it for about two weeks;
Then he sent me a bill
That knocked me flat off the wagon
And back down on my feet.
Posted by raisinb on April 10, 2009, at 10:35:42
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » raisinb, posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 0:54:59
You're on, garnet ;) Cheers!
Posted by raisinb on April 10, 2009, at 10:38:34
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » garnet71, posted by desolationrower on April 10, 2009, at 6:27:03
that alcohol worsens depression or interferes with antidepressants? That's what I'm wondering. I can't find anything on Google except vague cautions against drinking for common-sense reasons.
Posted by myco on April 10, 2009, at 11:36:16
In reply to but is there any scientific evidence, posted by raisinb on April 10, 2009, at 10:38:34
I bet we could find some more supporting evidence.
But think about it...have you met a happy alcoholic...I dont mean more of the social drinker type (mood disorder sufferer who drinks more than regularly to open up; but this is a start down that path). The ones ive met, the seasoned ones, after prolonged use get angry or depressed, like to fight, cant retain much of anything in the way memory or demonstrate critical thinking. I would say the long term evidence of overuse is staggering from the psychological side....thats why I was concentrated on asking the question "why do you drink".
I dont think you will evidence in terms of neuros and what not to support the idea that that one or two glasses of wine increases depression without alot of contradiction...its all about what up top already....drunk girl at a party who was dumped by her bf out with her girls....few vodca coolers in her and shes crying and seeking attention from her friends?....depression? certainly acute no?
anyway...my opinions here differ alot im sure
myco
------
> that alcohol worsens depression or interferes with antidepressants? That's what I'm wondering. I can't find anything on Google except vague cautions against drinking for common-sense reasons.
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2009, at 19:02:23
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on April 10, 2009, at 2:24:09
Jay was skinny peed it all out. And felt happy everyday and acommplished so much. Stopped and turned into an idiot. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2009, at 19:33:26
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2009, at 19:02:23
Well hate to post this as just came in newsletter. Uggg!!!!! Phillipa
Heavy Drinking Doubles Risk for Essential Tremor Later in Life
April 9, 2009 Drinking 3 units of alcohol a day increases the risk of developing essential tremor, a new study shows. Investigators reporting in the April issue of the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry warn of the potential cerebellar neurotoxicity of alcohol particularly important information for those who use alcohol to relieve symptoms of essential tremor.Essential tremor affects an estimated 5 million American adults older than 60 years. The cause is unknown, but it is thought to be the result of damage to the Purkinje cells and disrupted signaling between synapses.
Alcohol is a known neurotoxin, particularly to the cerebellum, which is involved in essential tremor. But paradoxically, alcohol is often used to relieve symptoms in those who have already been diagnosed with tremor.
Investigators, led by Elan Louis, MD, from the New York Neurological Institute, in New York City, warn that such treatment could in fact hasten progression and worsen symptoms. "Future studies should explore these issues," the group writes.
Alcohol Neurotoxic
Investigators studied lifetime alcohol consumption and neurological symptoms in close to 3300 people 65 years and older. Participants were part of a large population survey of age-related conditions. The work is known as the Neurological Disorders in Central Spain Study (or NEDICES).
Just over half (56%) of participants reported drinking regularly. In all, 76 patients had developed incident essential tremor by follow-up 3 years later.
The researchers report that patients who developed tremor were significantly more likely to have been drinking often and for a long period of time. After taking factors into account likely to influence the results, such as lifetime cigarette smoking and depression, they found that those who drank regularly more than doubled their risk for essential tremor.
Relative Risk for Essential Tremor Baseline Drink-Year Quartile Adjusted Relative Risk 95% CI P Value
Non drinkers Reference
Lowest quartile (≤40.7) 1.43 0.68 2.98 .34
2nd quartile (40.8 to 110) 1.75 0.89 3.42 .10
3rd quartile (110.1 to 138) 1.82 0.89 3.74 .10
Highest quartile (>138) 2.29 1.15 4.54 .018Every additional year of regular daily drinking increased the risk for tremor by 23%. Even those who drank fewer units, but who drank regularly, increased their risk, although not to the same extent.
This study had several limitations, the authors point out. The findings cannot be generalized to patients older than 65. They note that the mean follow-up time was modest, and a longer study would likely have resulted in more essential tremor cases and greater study power.
NEDICES was funded by the Spanish Health Research Agency and the Spanish Office of Science and Technology. Dr. Louis is receiving funding from the National Institutes of Health, in Bethesda, Maryland.
J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 2009;80:423-425. Abstract
Posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 19:35:05
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » garnet71, posted by desolationrower on April 10, 2009, at 6:27:03
lol ~ someone wrote a song about my PDoc!
Posted by Deneb on April 10, 2009, at 21:40:48
In reply to depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by raisinb on April 9, 2009, at 10:41:20
I don't know the answer to your question, but for me personally alcohol seems to make me depressed, I think...
I was reading about how good red wine is for you, good for your heart and longevity and stuff.
I hate the taste of alcohol but I wanted to be healthier so I started forcing myself to drink a smallish glass of wine everyday. I did it for 2 weeks.
I noticed I was getting depressed. Pdoc says maybe my tolerance for alcohol is low because I am of Chinese descent and some of us don't process alcohol well.
Anyways, I stopped drinking the wine. I think I felt better, that and I didn't have to force myself to drink disgusting wine. rofl
Posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 22:53:03
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by Deneb on April 10, 2009, at 21:40:48
"Pdoc says maybe my tolerance for alcohol is low because I am of Chinese descent and some of us don't process alcohol well"
Hey-that's pretty interesting. Not to imply that Chinese drinkers are non-existent, but I've never yet known any Chinese immigrants (as opposed to Chinese-Americans) who drink alcohol. I thought it was only a cultural thing. They have always told me they just "don't like to drink".
Posted by Deneb on April 11, 2009, at 1:33:08
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » Deneb, posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 22:53:03
I couldn't find out the source for this, but I found this on some blog. No source, so I don't know how accurate this info is, but it is interesting.
http://madminerva.blog-city.com/asian_alcohol_intolerance.htm
Roughly half of all people of east-Asian descent (including Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) lack an enzyme necessary for the efficient metabolism of alcohol. For readers who like biology stuff, this enzyme is known as the low-Km aldehyde dehydrogenase isoenzyme, or in short, ADH. The absence of this enzyme is the culprit for your flushed cheeks and feelings of sickness in response to alcohol use. Without this enzyme, the byproduct of alcohol (the toxic aldehyde dehydrogenase) cannot be removed from the bloodstream nearly as well as it is in people who do have the enzyme. The aldehyde accumulates in a person's system as a result because it cannot be broken down as quickly.
A person with this condition is likely to experience toxic effects such as flushing, rapid heartbeat, headache, nausea, drowsiness, swelling and skin itchiness. In addition, it is easier to get drunk upon consumption of even just a few alcoholic beverages.
While this condition can be seen as an inconvenience, epidemiological studies have shown that because of these adverse side effects, people of Asian descent tend to consume less alcohol, and therefore rates of alcohol use and incidence of alcoholism are lower than those of other ethnic groups.
Posted by myco on April 11, 2009, at 1:38:06
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » garnet71, posted by Deneb on April 11, 2009, at 1:33:08
It not as intense as that sounds really....my chinese,korean and japanese friends...by majority....will get a lil red faced from drinking. That being said...a couple korean guys I know could drink many of us under the table easily lol. I wouldnt say its not cultural...asian cultures do drink quite a bit.
> I couldn't find out the source for this, but I found this on some blog. No source, so I don't know how accurate this info is, but it is interesting.
>
> http://madminerva.blog-city.com/asian_alcohol_intolerance.htm
>
> Roughly half of all people of east-Asian descent (including Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) lack an enzyme necessary for the efficient metabolism of alcohol. For readers who like biology stuff, this enzyme is known as the low-Km aldehyde dehydrogenase isoenzyme, or in short, ADH. The absence of this enzyme is the culprit for your flushed cheeks and feelings of sickness in response to alcohol use. Without this enzyme, the byproduct of alcohol (the toxic aldehyde dehydrogenase) cannot be removed from the bloodstream nearly as well as it is in people who do have the enzyme. The aldehyde accumulates in a person's system as a result because it cannot be broken down as quickly.
>
> A person with this condition is likely to experience toxic effects such as flushing, rapid heartbeat, headache, nausea, drowsiness, swelling and skin itchiness. In addition, it is easier to get drunk upon consumption of even just a few alcoholic beverages.
>
> While this condition can be seen as an inconvenience, epidemiological studies have shown that because of these adverse side effects, people of Asian descent tend to consume less alcohol, and therefore rates of alcohol use and incidence of alcoholism are lower than those of other ethnic groups.
Posted by yxibow on April 11, 2009, at 1:43:57
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right?, posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2009, at 19:33:26
> Well hate to post this as just came in newsletter. Uggg!!!!! Phillipa
>
>
>
> Heavy Drinking Doubles Risk for Essential Tremor Later in LifeAnd has been rarely known for causing tardive dyskinesia among other rare psychotropic compounds, which probably has a similar reason behind it.
Posted by yxibow on April 11, 2009, at 1:48:41
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2009, at 19:02:23
> Jay was skinny peed it all out. And felt happy everyday and acommplished so much. Stopped and turned into an idiot. Love Phillipa
I was not talking about you specifically, Jan -- I know you obviously survived through it, and it wasn't aimed directly at you as I said.
I was just putting some figures into it, for those who are slender and are also doing the same, and the outcome can be... well.. let's just not go there.
Believe me, this is not a diatribe on alcohol or anything, although I do believe that those with -some- forms of depression may be prone to a possible continual cycle of it with heavy drinking, but that's just theorizing off the top of my head.
I mean, I think marijuana should be legalized and taxed in small quantities to consenting adults, but of course subject to the same regulations alcohol would be and carry any pregnancy warnings or whatever a state might put on it.
-- Jay
Posted by myco on April 11, 2009, at 1:51:59
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on April 11, 2009, at 1:48:41
>"I mean, I think marijuana should be legalized and taxed in small quantities to consenting adults, but of course subject to the same regulations alcohol would be and carry any pregnancy warnings or whatever a state might put on it."
Spoken like a true canuck Jay. The senate actually made this very same recommendation but our govt backed down due to american pressure.
myco
---------
Posted by garnet71 on April 11, 2009, at 2:32:47
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » Deneb, posted by myco on April 11, 2009, at 1:38:06
Well of course people in Asia drink! I'm just sayin'...All of my Asian friends or acquaintences I've known and talked to about this--not one liked alcohol--but they all were female. I've never really noticed whether or not this is true for males becaues I didn't really get to know any that well, but I do know that in China - I've rarely seen a female in a bar, although I'd only gone to a couple, but I have never seen a female smoke a cigarette over there. I think it might be a cultural aspect.
Just tea, tea, tea...
Posted by myco on April 11, 2009, at 11:10:45
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » myco, posted by garnet71 on April 11, 2009, at 2:32:47
I was just sharing that lil point.
I also know 'alot' of chinese females who dont drink at all...they say they dont like the taste...thats part of it but also they dont like to be embarrased by the 'red face' - theses girls get it quite easy and find it embarrassing lol i think its cute
> Well of course people in Asia drink! I'm just sayin'...All of my Asian friends or acquaintences I've known and talked to about this--not one liked alcohol--but they all were female. I've never really noticed whether or not this is true for males becaues I didn't really get to know any that well, but I do know that in China - I've rarely seen a female in a bar, although I'd only gone to a couple, but I have never seen a female smoke a cigarette over there. I think it might be a cultural aspect.
>
> Just tea, tea, tea...
Posted by rvanson on April 12, 2009, at 9:06:13
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » raisinb, posted by garnet71 on April 10, 2009, at 0:54:59
> Maybe it's because sometimes people with mental health issues self-medicate, rather than alcohol being a cause, so doctors somehow link the 2? But..
>
> My very first PDoc, years ago, told me I could not even have *1* drink because it would affect my depression. Not one per evening, not one per month, not one EVER - for the rest of my life.
>
> She had issues!
>
> She was really mean too. She told me I'd never have the ability to be happy in life. Now this is after but 4 visits with a severe depression. I think she was projecting; I had never seen her smile-not once. It was as if her face would crack.
>
> She scared me away, and she was only the 2nd worst one I ever had, not the worst. Well, I'd only tried 4 altogether..But why on earth do medical schools accept these people?
>
> BTW-I like Bushmills, single malt. i haven't drank whiskey in a long time, but you kinda have me craving one...In the past, when i used to go out alot with friends, once in a while, exsp in the wintertime, we'd do a shot or two of whiskey. It's a nice buzz sometimes, different than wine or beer. I used to make Irish coffees on Christmas Eve too, and have a couple while I was doing all the cooking and party preparation.
>
> Let's have a virtual drink then--cheers
>
> [_] shot glass :)
>
>Lesson learned here for all of us: trust your instincts with Pdoc's. Lots of them have "issues" and may need help themselves. They are human with all the flaws that come with that, just like us.
If you don't like your doctor, or the way they are treating you, then they cannot help you and you are wasting your time, and perhaps it's adding to your psychiatric condition, negatively.
That's when you run for the door and find another doctor that treats you right.
Lots of doctors also suffer from the God complex, and those are some of the worst in the business.
My .02 cents.
Posted by rvanson on April 12, 2009, at 9:11:12
In reply to but is there any scientific evidence, posted by raisinb on April 10, 2009, at 10:38:34
> that alcohol worsens depression or interferes with antidepressants? That's what I'm wondering. I can't find anything on Google except vague cautions against drinking for common-sense reasons.<
My take on alcohol is that it's not a good idea to drink it when on medications, but perhaps once in a while, it might be OK to have one drink for socializing.
Excessive alcohol intake isn't good for anyone, patients or so-called normal people.
If you need to drink all the time, you are an alcoholic, medications or not.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 12, 2009, at 9:54:42
In reply to Re: depression and alcohol--is my pdoc right? » garnet71, posted by Deneb on April 11, 2009, at 1:33:08
> For readers who like biology stuff, this enzyme is known as the low-Km aldehyde dehydrogenase isoenzyme, or in short, ADH. The absence of this enzyme is the culprit for your flushed cheeks and feelings of sickness in response to alcohol use. Without this enzyme, the byproduct of alcohol (the toxic aldehyde dehydrogenase) cannot be removed from the bloodstream nearly as well as it is in people who do have the enzyme. The aldehyde accumulates in a person's system as a result because it cannot be broken down as quickly.
Just a little correction to the quoted text, and some background....
"Without this enzyme, the byproduct of alcohol (the toxic aldehyde dehydrogenase)..."Where it says toxic aldehyde dehydrogenase, it is incorrect. Any reference to dehydrogenase refers to the enzyme, and that is not toxic. The substrate for the enzyme, aldehyde, is toxic.
The aldehyde intermediate of the two-step oxidation of ethanol to ethanoic acid (acetic acid, or common vinegar) is called ethanal (modern name) or acetaldehyde (historic name).
Many people of Asian decent have an inefficient enzyme for processing ethanal. Very few people have zero activity. After this enzyme inefficiency was identified as the cause of the unpleasant response to ethanol, an inhibitor of this enzyme was developed to treat alcoholism, by making it very unpleasant. That drug (disulfiram) is marketed as Antabuse. People on this drug, which causes zero activity at this enzyme, get violently ill from even trivial exposure to ethanol.
The genetic defect that is common in Asian people is NOT the lack of the enzyme, but that the structure of their enzyme has a single point mutation. One amino acid is the wrong one. The co-factor NADH does not bind efficiently to the enzyme because of this defect, and the rate of the enzyme is correspondingly reduced to about 8% of that of people without the defect.
It has been theorized that supplemental niacinamide (precursor to NADH), or supplemental NADH (Enada is one brand), might reduce the adverse effects caused by low co-factor binding efficiency. For biochemist geeks, this enzyme is one of the rare ones with zeroth order kinetics. Its rate is unaffected by alcohol concentration, but instead only by its ability to exist in activated form, i.e. bound with its co-factor.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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