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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2009, at 21:25:52
In reply to Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 23, 2009, at 19:05:30
Well Kenny looks like we're in this together sort of different benzos but same problems. Only mine 37 years. So what do we do? Love Phillipa
Posted by kenny6 on March 23, 2009, at 23:11:49
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal » kenny6, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2009, at 21:25:52
not the ssri route...
Posted by desolationrower on March 24, 2009, at 0:37:26
In reply to Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 23, 2009, at 19:05:30
hi, if you just want help tapering a pill that is hard to divide, you could crush with mortar & pestle, and mix with inert filler, like flour or inositol. be careful to get all of it out of the grinder, as with a small brush. i've never needed to, if you get a pill cutter or just a sharp kitchen knife i never had any problem dividing pills to 1/4th or 1/8ths. as for your other symptoms, are they under control? there isn't enough to really give much help on that
-d/r
Posted by kenny6 on March 24, 2009, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by desolationrower on March 24, 2009, at 0:37:26
Which other symptoms are you talking about d/r? Klonopin is bittersweet, and it's the only thing that has worked for my serious social problem (I am not going to put a title on it as new d/x's will be invented/discovered in the future, and the fact I mentioned theres other intangibles) and is the causation of the cognitive symptoms I had said. The depression (dysthymia, I guess) has been exacerbated by this medication. Are you talking about the muscle symptoms and the like? They have been quelled, as they are mainly put forth in social situations, but sometimes I feel as though the medicine has "pooped out." And then the next day I am reminded it still has an effect because, well....it has an effect that day. I am intrigued by the method you have described, but have a question for you. Those pills you mentioned, were they chalky? To be as clean as possible (the taper that is, although clonazepam has made me too depressed to shower at times..ahem)I want to ingest the .00005mg? that spray a good distance from the pill upon cut with say a knife. I'm not sure that would matter much, as bioavaiability of anything varies day by day I can assume. I have a cheap pill splitter, but it is in no way a pill cutter. Do they cut like butter d/r?
Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2009, at 4:40:35
In reply to Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 23, 2009, at 19:05:30
> I have had the plan in mind to begin to taper off off 2-2.5 mg Teva USA(manufacturer) Clonazepam daily beginning this summer. I have been taking generic barr adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) 20mg b.i.d. for a while and XR before that. I have been on Adderall for around a year, only stopping to give Nardil a spin after at least 7 SSRI's and wellbublah blah did not have any positive effect. I have been on clonazepam daily for over a year, and it can be noted I have been looking for a drug to work before I taper. But, the road has been hard and I want to begin the slow taper now. Keep in mind the manufacturer! Now, what would be the best method of tapering? I want it to be very accurate, and the water titration method sounds accurate (I have not looked much into it.) I doubt teva's clonaepam green tablets are freely soluble in water....any thought? Methods...Solubility...Remedies to make it through in which one has experienced (they are endless, but they're not like Methadone or Suboxone is to Opiates obviously)?
Have you discussed this plan with your doctor? Is there a reason? Habituation? Or is it dulling ? Because social anxiety does have some indications for it.At any rate the usual plan is 10% per week, more if you can stand it, less if you can't. It will always be there, and there's no point risking any adverse effects.
By the way both Barr and Par have orally disintegrating Klonopin. Depends if your insurance approves it or not. But they have it down to 1/8mg wafers. So give or take 8 weeks and it would be a safe taper. Yes, there are faster tapers but that would land you in a clinic and there's no point in it.
> Psychology is such a new science (and in some fields corrupt) that one can nearly guarantee different diagnoses from different pdocs. That has been my case. Right now, my questionable yet renowned Psychologist says its Social Anxiety Disorder. Although I have somewhat abnormal thinking now, I will admit, it is not the maladaptive described in the booklet. I am working on that though. But more importantly, none of my symptoms (which are primary and disabling) are outlined. They just go under parathesias...The muscles feel weird, more than just muscle movements, in my head. Just strange, indecribable, physical sensations. But one thing I would like all you to keep in mind is...
Psychology is not a new science, Freud wasn't all wrong.. its as much an art as a science.. some methods are odd and different than others to the patient. The best methods are the ones that work for the patient. There is no one way in psychodynamics.
Primary and disabling... ?... parasthesias ?.... I guess I'm curious because I'm biased in the sense that part of my disorder is what could be called somatoform. Do you experience real but unexplained bodily sensations ? Multiple ones ? Ones that you don't have a organic disorder for?
> I AM THE SKETCHY KID
>
>
> In society, symptoms and signs grant me this name. And Psychologists try to compare it to "timid." I don't know if it depends where in the US you are from, but you might know what it means. Please help, this dysthymia wont stop sliding downwards and my cognitive abilities suffer TREMENDOUSLY. That is actually kind of debilitating in itself as say in court I see a contradiction in what someone says and forget about it, or what they said, seconds later. Either as I follow along, or just zone out.
Have your psychiatrist or psychologist ever mentioned psychological testing? It can be a bit expensive -- some insurance will cover for it. Some tests may seem outdated, some have been updated to the present, but interpreted they give a look into things. None of it is a foregone diagnosis, its just a useful tool when people want to be sure things are on the right track.-- tidings
Jay
Posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 10:19:16
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal » kenny6, posted by yxibow on March 26, 2009, at 4:40:35
> > I have had the plan in mind to begin to taper off off 2-2.5 mg Teva USA(manufacturer) Clonazepam daily beginning this summer. I have been taking generic barr adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) 20mg b.i.d. for a while and XR before that. I have been on Adderall for around a year, only stopping to give Nardil a spin after at least 7 SSRI's and wellbublah blah did not have any positive effect. I have been on clonazepam daily for over a year, and it can be noted I have been looking for a drug to work before I taper. But, the road has been hard and I want to begin the slow taper now. Keep in mind the manufacturer! Now, what would be the best method of tapering? I want it to be very accurate, and the water titration method sounds accurate (I have not looked much into it.) I doubt teva's clonaepam green tablets are freely soluble in water....any thought? Methods...Solubility...Remedies to make it through in which one has experienced (they are endless, but they're not like Methadone or Suboxone is to Opiates obviously)?
>
>
> Have you discussed this plan with your doctor? Is there a reason? Habituation? Or is it dulling ? Because social anxiety does have some indications for it.Yes. The answer is always taper, taper, taper. And I knew that. Habituation yes. I'm going to Mass College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences very soon and need to be sharp. This may lead one to think its not so debilating, of course. But I need to draw a line before I become more physically dependent. Such as how I did with tobacco. "Tapered" and I'm assuming it was alot easier than if I had continued. Dipped then quit.
>
> At any rate the usual plan is 10% per week, more if you can stand it, less if you can't. It will always be there, and there's no point risking any adverse effects.
>
> By the way both Barr and Par have orally disintegrating Klonopin. Depends if your insurance approves it or not. But they have it down to 1/8mg wafers. So give or take 8 weeks and it would be a safe taper. Yes, there are faster tapers but that would land you in a clinic and there's no point in it.Don't know if my insurance covers that. I have good insurance though. Thank you for mentioning those.
>
>
> > Psychology is such a new science (and in some fields corrupt) that one can nearly guarantee different diagnoses from different pdocs. That has been my case. Right now, my questionable yet renowned Psychologist says its Social Anxiety Disorder. Although I have somewhat abnormal thinking now, I will admit, it is not the maladaptive described in the booklet. I am working on that though. But more importantly, none of my symptoms (which are primary and disabling) are outlined. They just go under parathesias...The muscles feel weird, more than just muscle movements, in my head. Just strange, indecribable, physical sensations. But one thing I would like all you to keep in mind is...
>
>
> Psychology is not a new science, Freud wasn't all wrong.. its as much an art as a science.. some methods are odd and different than others to the patient. The best methods are the ones that work for the patient. There is no one way in psychodynamics.I meant Pharmacology...I think...I learned all about the "froid" (not a spelling correction, of course) in lots of Psych classes in getting my associates. Its the microbiologies and stuff that suck....Your statement about Freud is right on target.
>
>
> Primary and disabling... ?... parasthesias ?.... I guess I'm curious because I'm biased in the sense that part of my disorder is what could be called somatoform. Do you experience real but unexplained bodily sensations ? Multiple ones ? Ones that you don't have a organic disorder for?Real but unexplained that I do not have an organic disorder for (yeah!!..I guess).
>
>
>
>
> > I AM THE SKETCHY KID
> >
> >
> > In society, symptoms and signs grant me this name. And Psychologists try to compare it to "timid." I don't know if it depends where in the US you are from, but you might know what it means. Please help, this dysthymia wont stop sliding downwards and my cognitive abilities suffer TREMENDOUSLY. That is actually kind of debilitating in itself as say in court I see a contradiction in what someone says and forget about it, or what they said, seconds later. Either as I follow along, or just zone out.
>
>
> Have your psychiatrist or psychologist ever mentioned psychological testing? It can be a bit expensive -- some insurance will cover for it. Some tests may seem outdated, some have been updated to the present, but interpreted they give a look into things. None of it is a foregone diagnosis, its just a useful tool when people want to be sure things are on the right track.
>
> -- tidings
>
> JayI've gotten a Neuropsych in Boston. It's mainly cognitive and the only things that tested for my anxiety were if I made comments such as "I suck" if I got one of their tests wrong. Ex. repeat whatever, whatever, backwards. And the other a 10 question thing with question along the lines of do you get anxious?...uhh...In the writeup it was Anxiety Disorder NOS. I wish all pdocs didn't deny any existence of brain mapping for mental disorders. When they answer like that they literally mean there are none that can test you for ALL malfunctions.....I love science. No homo.
I look forward to hearing/chatting with you guys some more. I promise I'll sound less ignorant. I'm about to go take a nap, its weird being able to sleep on Adderall.
Posted by Zana on March 26, 2009, at 14:38:38
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 10:19:16
Thanx for the 10% rule for taper klonopin. I have wanted to taper off the 3mgs I take a day because I think it must be dulling and maybe depressing. All I can ever get out of my pdoc is "go slow." I have been wanting something more exact because I have had terrible symptoms tapering off it before -- not only the rebound anxiety but the feeling of bugs crawling up my arms. Yikes. It was terrible.
Zana
Posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 17:21:09
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by Zana on March 26, 2009, at 14:38:38
He also adds, which is more important than the 10% figure, that you must address your comfort level as well. I've actually already known this (Thank you though for posting it, for if I hadn't I would have probably never considered tapering)but 10% isn't exactly a "rule", just as specific as one could get. The point is to try and make it as comfortable as you possibly can.
I don't know if I'll even attempt at switching generics (thanks again for that input though) because I want it as clean as possible. The thing I haven't mentioned, is my Adderall. This is very debatable. During withdrawals, stimulants are not advised (even sugar.) I will, probably, continue my Adderall while tapering. Theres no "interaction", as they say, but as we all know that does not exactly mean what one would think it does. At first, the Adderall was a life saver for what I guess is Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder, and then within a week of consistently being on it the disorder returned, no worse than before. Did I mention I took Nardil as well? I was kenny7 before I lost my password and have some posts about that but I ended up discontinuing it. It was the only medicine that helped at all, maybe, aside from bittersweet kpin. I've actually had mild depression my whole life where I wouldn't really notice that I was depressed. It is amazing that you are not depressed yet Phillipa, but in no way am I taking anything away from you. Obviously, your taper will be harder. But, it is possible for all.
> Thanx for the 10% rule for taper klonopin. I have wanted to taper off the 3mgs I take a day because I think it must be dulling and maybe depressing. All I can ever get out of my pdoc is "go slow." I have been wanting something more exact because I have had terrible symptoms tapering off it before -- not only the rebound anxiety but the feeling of bugs crawling up my arms. Yikes. It was terrible.
> Zana
>
Posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 17:22:29
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 17:21:09
I was thinking Zana was Phillipa. Sorry!
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2009, at 19:38:21
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 17:22:29
Hi Kenny so did you replace the nardil? Love Phillipa If not mistaken weren't you doing well?
Posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 20:44:20
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal » kenny6, posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2009, at 19:38:21
Aside from a couple episodes of syncope, yes. I was doing well as far as side effects go. It did add to the sedation of the klonopin but the thing is it didn't work for me. I gave it time and was at 90mg for a while but saw no benefit. I was so happy to get prescribed it hearing it was the "gold standard" for social anxiety disorder. No doubt do I still believe that to be true, but like I said no dice for me.
Getting "tipsy" from alcohol, before Klonopin, would do the trick. Marijuana would exacerbate every single symptom to the fullest degree.Same goes for kpins. They really did the trick. Not so much anymore. I am going to try the compounding method. I'm not sure when.
*******If I taper VERY SLOW (I AM TALKING VERY SMALL CUT PERCENTAGES) if I start now (I have been reluctant to do so because it is school) what should I expect? I've read "if you become symptomatic (withdrawal symptoms I assume, I know what they feel like having gone a couple of days without it, not by choice), than let your body adjust to that dose decrease by staying there. Will my mind begin to clear up? That statment I have paraphrased implies nothing is felt if the taper is perfect. I am getting rotator cuff surgery in a few days (I'm too young! I wonder if this pill has had anything to do with the injuries!) and I don't know if the afforementioned slow taper's effects on the body would be enough to slow healing.
For the compounding method, how is one certain you have the same ratio of filler to medication in each cut? I understand all of the measuring, I think, but what if I plan on taking 5% of a cut say for two days... And it ends up I take more/less of the medication relative to one or the other days. Ex: .1 mg one day and .12543 the next?
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2009, at 21:17:23
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 20:44:20
Kenny I'm going to see a compounding doc for hormones very expensive supposed to help depression/anxiety also. And improve bones and lots of other stuff like memory? Phillipa good choice
Posted by jedi on March 28, 2009, at 3:02:50
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 26, 2009, at 20:44:20
Hi Kenny,
I just went through what you are about to. I had been taking clonazepam(1-2mg) for most of the last 10 years. It has been a good augmenter of Nardil for my social anxiety disorder. But the memory dysfunction was really starting to bother me. I spent about 2.5 months tapering down from 2mg. It was all pretty easy down to .5mg, then things started getting a little bit dicey. I just kept cutting my 2mg tablets into smaller and smaller pieces. I really should have gotten the .5mg tablets after I got down to that dosage. Anyway after being on .25mg for a couple of weeks, I went to .25 every other day for a week and then just quit. I've been off of clonazepam for a little over a week now and am still having some rebound anxiety and insomnia. I think I will try to tough it out though. I am really hoping to recover some of my former mental abilities.
Good Luck,
JediPS An option that some people use is to switch to a less potent benzo with still a long half-life, such as diazepam(Valium). Most equivalence charts show that clonazepam is 20 times more potent than diazepam. This would let you cut down at an even slower rate.
Posted by kenny6 on March 29, 2009, at 20:44:44
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal » kenny6, posted by jedi on March 28, 2009, at 3:02:50
Yeah but noone looks into the ion channel differences and whatnot between benzos. Congratulations dude, seriously.
> Hi Kenny,
> I just went through what you are about to. I had been taking clonazepam(1-2mg) for most of the last 10 years. It has been a good augmenter of Nardil for my social anxiety disorder. But the memory dysfunction was really starting to bother me. I spent about 2.5 months tapering down from 2mg. It was all pretty easy down to .5mg, then things started getting a little bit dicey. I just kept cutting my 2mg tablets into smaller and smaller pieces. I really should have gotten the .5mg tablets after I got down to that dosage. Anyway after being on .25mg for a couple of weeks, I went to .25 every other day for a week and then just quit. I've been off of clonazepam for a little over a week now and am still having some rebound anxiety and insomnia. I think I will try to tough it out though. I am really hoping to recover some of my former mental abilities.
> Good Luck,
> Jedi
>
> PS An option that some people use is to switch to a less potent benzo with still a long half-life, such as diazepam(Valium). Most equivalence charts show that clonazepam is 20 times more potent than diazepam. This would let you cut down at an even slower rate.
>
Posted by kenny6 on March 30, 2009, at 22:07:17
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal, posted by kenny6 on March 29, 2009, at 20:44:44
Today I was prescribed Gabapentin 300mg three times a day.
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 0:06:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by kenny6 on March 30, 2009, at 22:07:17
Neurotonin right? What does Skeetchy kid mean no idea. Since I'm tappering off the valium and xanax. I would also like to know. Love Phillipa
Posted by kenny6 on March 31, 2009, at 18:51:12
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin » kenny6, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 0:06:19
"Skeetchy kid" aha, I like how you've gone back and read this. And you were the only one to even acknowledge it. You have no need to worry about what a "Skeetchy kid" is. I meant this is how I was described (even stil, the kpin immensely lessens this to a great extent though) for years before my Social Anxiety Disorder exploded at 18.
If you do not understand what it means, as I assumed not many people outside of New England would, you have no need to worry about it. It is slang. But everyone that uses the word in order to describe someone's mannerisms/posture knows what they are talking about. I would never use it, disorder or not. I let people do their own thing.
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 19:38:41
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by kenny6 on March 30, 2009, at 22:07:17
How is it is it working? Love Phillipa
Posted by kenny6 on March 31, 2009, at 20:01:14
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin » kenny6, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 19:38:41
> How is it is it working? Love Phillipa
The fog I already feel definitely isn't psychosomatic. I think my anxiety is a tad better. But maybe that is because I THINK it is. I feel kind've sick though, at times. And I also think that it has helped my depression a bit. I'm looking forward and hoping that it is the med for me.
Posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 20:52:39
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by kenny6 on March 31, 2009, at 20:01:14
is skeetchy different than sketchy?
-d/r
Posted by kenny6 on March 31, 2009, at 21:02:17
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 20:52:39
> is skeetchy different than sketchy?
>
> -d/rthe 1st one is a typo. But yes.
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 21:24:59
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by kenny6 on March 31, 2009, at 21:02:17
Kenny I hope so much that it does work fingers and toes crossed. Love Phillipa
Posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 15:23:09
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin » kenny6, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 21:24:59
I've been taking klonopin for about 14 years for Social Anxiety Disorter. It worked great, the only thing I took that worked and I took just about every thing except Nardil/Parnate for SAD. I continue to do well with my once debilitating anxiety issues.
In my youth I self medicated with alcohol. Quit drinking for 16 years, but a year after starting klonopin began to fool around with drinking, now often in excess. I've heard there is research that suggests increased cravings.
Also, I think at times I do "bold" things that seem unlike me. Certainly a benzo for SAD helps by making your feel bolder in social situations which is good, but not sure I'd do some of the things I do that I later regret including being impulsive. On occation I'm told I have slurred speach (not alcohol related). There are a days when I feel great, but many where I feel sluggish, tired and confused and even depressed. Some have suggested these issues are side effects of klonopin, I'm just not sure.
I have heard that over time the brain can change its hard wiring and perhaps I can get off klonopin or go to a lower dose successfully. I've lowered the dose before and had a hard time with withdrawls even at a slow titration down.
I'm taking 2mgs at bedtime and my plan is to go down by .25mgs each 7 days then level off at 1.5mgs for a few weeks. Then try to drop to 1mg and assess how I'm doing. If possible get off it. I'll use a pill cutter to chop up my 2mg brand pill until I get down to a lower dose then go to the 1mg pill if I'm successfull.
I've always been a proponent of klonopin. Before I took it I could hardly leave my home. But I'm conserned and unsure about the issues mentioned and really don't know if klonopin is to blame. And the big question is will all my anxiety issues return. Also, I'm not sure how long I will I have to wait to see if the anxiety I will be feeling will be withdrawls or a return of the symptoms of SAD.
I guess time will tell. Any comments, ideas, or info would be great. Thanks
Posted by Phillipa on May 17, 2009, at 20:07:50
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 15:23:09
Robert we need to talk ASAP. Address the same? Will babblemail first. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on May 17, 2009, at 21:09:38
In reply to Re: Klonopin Withdrawal- r/x'ed GABApentin, posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 15:23:09
Robert suboxone could work. But please reply to me. Another babblemail think your e-mail is wrong. Love Jan
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