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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 0:32:18
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2009, at 18:14:07
> Yes, I also agree with the above mentioned description of long term SSRI use. I agree with the notion that the REM disrupting property of the SSRI's could be mediating some of the of these long term effects.
>
> REM sleep is accompanied by growth hormone release. So, supressing REM sleep could have a detrimental effect to long term energy levels, learning, etc.
>
> The SSRI's activate all serotonin receptors in the brain and body, they are not specific to one subtype. As such, there is likely a whole host of strange metabolic and neuroendocrine changes that occur with long term SSRI use. As well, the SSRI's can reduce dopamine release after long term use, which can lead to apathy as well as reduced testosterone release.
>Is there a definate correlation between dopamine and testosterone, you say reduced dopamine can lead to reduced testosterone but can the reverse be true... could high amounts of testosterone indicate there maybe higher levels of dopamine in the brain... ?
Posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 0:55:48
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
"Cerebral insufficiency
Multiple clinical trials have evaluated ginkgo for a syndrome called "cerebral insufficiency." This condition, more commonly diagnosed in Europe than the United States, may include poor concentration, confusion, absent-mindedness, decreased physical performance, fatigue, headache, dizziness, depression, and anxiety. It is believed that cerebral insufficiency is caused by decreased blood flow to the brain due to clogged blood vessels. Some research reports benefits of ginkgo in patients with these symptoms, but most have been poorly designed without reliable results. Better studies are needed before a strong recommendation can be made. "http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/ginkgo-biloba/NS_patient-ginkgo/UPDATEAPP=false&FLUSHCACHE=0
Posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 0:57:30
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
Uses based on scientific evidence Grade*
Claudication (painful legs from clogged arteries)
Numerous studies suggest that Ginkgo biloba taken by mouth causes small improvements in claudication symptoms (leg pain with exercise or at rest due to clogged arteries). However, ginkgo may not be as helpful for this condition as exercise therapy or prescription drugs. Additional evidence is needed. A
Dementia (multi-infarct and Alzheimer's type)
The scientific literature overall does suggest that ginkgo benefits people with early stage Alzheimer's disease and multi-infarct dementia, and may be as helpful as acetylcholinesterase inhibitor drugs such as donepezil (Aricept?). Well-designed research comparing ginkgo to prescription drug therapies is needed. A
Cerebral insufficiency
Multiple clinical trials have evaluated ginkgo for a syndrome called "cerebral insufficiency." This condition, more commonly diagnosed in Europe than the United States, may include poor concentration, confusion, absent-mindedness, decreased physical performance, fatigue, headache, dizziness, depression, and anxiety. It is believed that cerebral insufficiency is caused by decreased blood flow to the brain due to clogged blood vessels. Some research reports benefits of ginkgo in patients with these symptoms, but most have been poorly designed without reliable results. Better studies are needed before a strong recommendation can be made. B
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 3:07:21
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 0:57:30
Depression yields a cerebral insufficiency. Although this is often concentrated in the prefrontal lobes, in severe cases (like mine), this observed hypoactivity is more widespread.
P.E.T. scans, MRI, and psychometric exams test for this.
- Scott
Posted by desolationrower on January 18, 2009, at 5:24:11
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2009, at 18:14:07
> Yes, I also agree with the above mentioned description of long term SSRI use. I agree with the notion that the REM disrupting property of the SSRI's could be mediating some of the of these long term effects.
>
> REM sleep is accompanied by growth hormone release. So, supressing REM sleep could have a detrimental effect to long term energy levels, learning, etc.
>
> The SSRI's activate all serotonin receptors in the brain and body, they are not specific to one subtype. As such, there is likely a whole host of strange metabolic and neuroendocrine changes that occur with long term SSRI use. As well, the SSRI's can reduce dopamine release after long term use, which can lead to apathy as well as reduced testosterone release.
>
> After long term use, serotonin transporter producing upregulates it self to compensate for the drug induced interference with the transporter. This means that, after discontinuation, there can be an enhanced uptake of serotonin. Mice treated with SSRI's in early life show increased serotonin transporter levels even after the drugs are discontinued.
>
> Finally, SSRI's reduce melatonin release. Melatonin has potent antioxidant effects and the supression of this hormone may, over time, lead to diminished antioxidant defences.
>
> I wish I had never used SSRI's. At this point, its like I can't live with them and can't live without them.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>are you thinking of slow-wave-sleep?
-d/r
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2009, at 8:47:17
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » linkadge, posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 0:32:18
Good question, I am not entirely sure. I know that the agonism of certain dopamine receptors is ncessary for testosterone release. On the other hand, I believe that testosterone does infact promote dopamine release in certain brain regions.
Its far too complicated for me to understand though.
Linkadge
Posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 9:04:57
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 3:07:21
> Depression yields a cerebral insufficiency. Although this is often concentrated in the prefrontal lobes, in severe cases (like mine), this observed hypoactivity is more widespread.
>
> P.E.T. scans, MRI, and psychometric exams test for this.
>
> - Scott------------------
Scott-how on earth did you manage to get diagnosed with this-a yet tested for it?
What do you think caused it?
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 13:40:21
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » SLS, posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 9:04:57
> > Depression yields a cerebral insufficiency. Although this is often concentrated in the prefrontal lobes, in severe cases (like mine), this observed hypoactivity is more widespread.
> >
> > P.E.T. scans, MRI, and psychometric exams test for this.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> ------------------
>
> Scott-how on earth did you manage to get diagnosed with this-a yet tested for it?
>
> What do you think caused it?
>I entered the NIMH, NIH (U.S. National Institutions of Health) as a research patient in May of 1992 for bipolar depression. I was one of the first subjects that underwent a P.E.T. scan of the brain (deoxyglucose). The scan demonstrated that most of my cerebrum was "blue", indicating that it was hypoactive. Normal brains are yellow, orange, and red, indicating increasing levels of brain activity. I was taken back when I was shown the pictures of my brain compared to those of healthy subjects. It was wrenching to witness, but not totally unexpected.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2009, at 17:21:05
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by desolationrower on January 18, 2009, at 5:24:11
Not necessarily. Slow wave sleep and REM sleep both affect learning, but different types of learniing. I think REM sleep affects procedural learning.
Linkadge
Posted by 49er on January 19, 2009, at 5:45:39
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
New Questions,
I am so sorry for your difficulties and can relate to wha tyou said.
Did you taper slowly off or your meds? If you didn't or cold turkeyed them, that could be the reason for the problems you mentioned.
It sounds like you have hit poop out with the Ativan.
As I said, I relate to everything you have said. Finally, in 2006, fed up with side effects, which included a mild to moderate hearing loss, tinnitus, and a worsening of learning disability issues, I started slowly tapering off of a 4 med cocktail. I am down to one med.
Other than tapering Wellbutrin XL very fast ( I got away with it thankfully), I tapered the other meds very slowly. It doesn't completely eliminate problems but it has enabled me to at least have some type of life.
I know I sound like a broken record but I will say it again. The best way to taper is 10% of the current dose every 3 to 6 weeks. Send me an email if you want to know how to do it. Free advice:))
49er
PS - Have you tried fish oil capsules for the cognitive issues? They help me depending on where I am in my withdrawal phase
Posted by NewQuestions on January 20, 2009, at 11:23:19
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by Garnet71 on January 16, 2009, at 12:43:57
Garnet71--Can we talk over the phone or via email? I have a bunch of questions and more information.
Posted by Connor on January 20, 2009, at 20:00:13
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
Same thing has happened to me. I've been off ssris for a while, I am in my early 20s and I'm still experiencing absolute hell because of the way ssris have rewired my brain.
I have no libido anymore (never a problem before), cognitive problems are rampant, most notably memory problems and articulation difficulties, quality of sleep never feels like it should, low energy, low motivation, emotional numbness, inability to cry not being able to experience enjoyment, emotions are out of wack. I know how I was when I was depressed and this was DEFINITELY not it, this happened during ssri use.
Like you ssris also sped me up when I first started them, I would feel great emotionally and mentally, but then eventually after a while it would just become terrible. I hated my life while I was on them and now I'm trying to recover. I've been using nootropics like piracetam and such with pretty good results, but not all my problems are fixed and supplements are only so reliable (stop working etc) I am so completely frustrated with the state that I am in now, that it IS making me depressed.. but then what are my options, go on another psycho-tropic and risk screwing myself up more?? It's really a sh*tty situation and I hate it. Each day is a struggle and it really sucks. Wish I never went onthose drugs
Posted by Garnet71 on January 20, 2009, at 20:44:25
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me--Garnet7, posted by NewQuestions on January 20, 2009, at 11:23:19
> Garnet71--Can we talk over the phone or via email? I have a bunch of questions and more information.
-----------
If you go to your settings and turn on the option for "babblemail", I can email you anonymously (unless you want to post your address or phone number here - I don't)
Posted by Garnet71 on January 20, 2009, at 20:46:55
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Connor on January 20, 2009, at 20:00:13
Join the club, Connor.
If we had any motivation, we could start our own advocacy group. Of course if we weren't so damn messed up, we could do things we want to do.
Let's please keep each other posted if we find anything. If I get enough energy, I want to some day start a group/message board for just this topic.
Posted by Garnet71 on January 21, 2009, at 12:14:46
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
NewQuestions,
I was just re-reading your original post, and thought about your carb cravings. If you have excessive yeast in your body, you will crave white carbs and sugar to 'feed the yeast', to sustain it. Some say yeast causes cognitive difficulties too. I don't trust all the alternative doctors (or the conventional ones at that!), but am thinking this could be possible.
I think you should start eating yoghurt daily. Do this for months, because you may not notice right away. The homemade kind is better -instructions are on the internet. It's easy to make and you can just keep the batch in the fridge in one large bowl. Scooping up plain yoghurt in Majool dates is so yummy! If you feel you need the cookies/sugar to get by, consider eating those dates. They are expensive though, but better than candy, and full of nutrients.
There is no point for any of us to avoid changing our nutritional habits to see what helps. You never know, and it is a lot safer than taking one drug after another and risking chemical labotony.
It also could be you have several things going on at once - you could have a yeast imbalance, digestive problems, hormonal imbalance, and nutritional deficiency all at the same time!
What shocks me is that most of the doctors I have ever been too only consider that you have ONE ailment at a time -as if sickness only appears serially..lol. That's how they behave, anyway. Think out of the box...
Posted by mav27 on January 21, 2009, at 12:52:10
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by Garnet71 on January 21, 2009, at 12:14:46
Are there any alternatives to yoghurt I can't stand yoghurt. But are there any supplement type things that will give you the results you would want from him having yoghurt ?
does white carbs and sugar cravings include things like doughnuts?
Posted by MChain on January 22, 2009, at 4:06:32
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » Connor, posted by Garnet71 on January 20, 2009, at 20:46:55
Connor and Garnet,
I am both relieved and distressed to tell you that I feel exactly the same way you guys do. I'd like to know more particulars about your situations but let me tell you more about mine to see if you can relate.
I started a variety of SSRIs at the age of 12 for "clinical depression" and seemed to recover with the medication until around 3 years later when I noticed that I got less stimulation from the things I used to enjoy. I got off the medication for a few weeks at the age of 16 after tapering in the summer but had an unbearable time with social anxiety after returning to school and got back on the medications (this severe anxiety may have been withdrawal)
Anyway things continued more or less the same way, with constant boredom etc, and I also thought I began to notice a certain cognitive weakening, confusion and sometimes difficulty speaking. My recollection of the onset is fuzzy but it became difficult to concentrate, retain information, organize thoughts and speak.
After my first semester of college I decided I had enough and tapered quickly off the meds (zoloft at the time) and have been off for 10 months now but the status quo has seemingly not changed all that much. I managed good grades in school but didnt enjoy anything, was socially reclusive to say the least, didnt get involved in anything etc...and i still can't enjoy the things I used to movies, music, sports, nothing seems to affect me. Also I've noticed I can't cry, even at the death of close relatives for whom I feel (or once felt) much affection for.
I've felt days where things appear to be getting back to normal, like small waves, but nothing sustained. Anyway I hope you guys can relate to this and we can share our progress/trips to doctors/solutions.
Posted by MChain on January 22, 2009, at 4:08:34
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by MChain on January 22, 2009, at 4:06:32
Oh and i forgot to mention that I definitely relate to the original poster, NewQuestions, as well.
Posted by Garnet71 on January 22, 2009, at 10:49:09
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
NewQuestions
I forgot to tell you - check into central sleep apnea - get a sleep study. I developed this autonomous nervous system problem (and this is one reason I am going to a neurologist), and found out it is very serious. Many people do not know they have it.
When you 'forget to breath' while you are sleeping, the brain lacks oxygen and it can cause cognitive problems (not to mention feeling like sh*t every day).
I had a sleep study done several years ago - was diagnosed with central sleep apnea - and my doctor - pdoc - thought nothing of it. I just found out it is very serious.
One does not usually know that have this - there is no snoring involved in this type of sleep apnea. This is where you wake up 100s or 1000s of times during the night without knowing it (as opposed to obstructive sleep apnea).
Could SSRIs cause autonomous nervous system damage? I wouldn't be surprised - no one knows for sure.
Check into this!!
Good luck
Posted by Garnet71 on January 24, 2009, at 9:28:42
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
I'm just throwing this out here...started a new thread:
Several of us have been complaining about cognitive and other symptoms. Doctors often call it treatment resistant depression or Bipolar II (which, btw, seem to be catch all diagnoses for when doctors can't figure out what is wrong with you). Maybe we have a mild version of seratonin syndrome? How does a doctor know we are deficient in seratonin when they prescribe SSRIs? Since they do not possibly know, maybe we have too much seratonin in our brains.
I haven't taken anti depressants for over a week, and my mind feels much more clear.
Just thinking out of the box...take a look into this for yourself.
From WIKI:
The symptoms are often described as a clinical triad of abnormalities:[3][4]
Cognitive effects: mental confusion, hypomania, hallucinations, agitation, headache, coma.
Autonomic effects: shivering, sweating, hyperthermia, hypertension, tachycardia, nausea, diarrhea.
Somatic effects: myoclonus (muscle twitching), hyperreflexia (manifested by clonus), tremor.
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 2:14:37
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Garnet71 on January 24, 2009, at 9:28:42
serotonin syndrome is an acute syndrome, not a chronic one.
-d/r
Posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:13:44
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 2:14:37
> serotonin syndrome is an acute syndrome, not a chronic one.
>
> -d/r----------------
I realize that the technical description is for an acute condition...I'm not thinking in terms of norms, that's why I said some sort of "mild version of seratonin syndrome"
Whose to say whether or not you have too much seratonin in your brain for extended periods of time? Could it be that if one does not lack serotinin to begin with, one can have too much in their brain from taking SSRIs?
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 11:55:58
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » desolationrower, posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:13:44
Sure, sris aren't universally helpful. I just don't think its useful to think of it in terms of serotonin syndrome. ITs like calling obesity 'i got heartburn from eating too much last few years.'
-d/r
Posted by Connor on January 27, 2009, at 22:54:26
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by MChain on January 22, 2009, at 4:06:32
I'm thankful that there are others who are going through what I am going through. There was a time when all I did was search the internet for people experiencing the symptoms I did post-ssri. I found a few reports but they were very few.
What I hate more then anything is the professionals telling me it's a result of being depressed (the reason I originally went on the drugs). That is such b*llsh*t, I mean I just came off a 3 week break from school and I actually had some of the best weeks of my life. But even still, everything was much duller then it should have been. My sex drive, motivation, mental ability are consistently low no matter what mood I am in. Life has become unbearably uninteresting and I'm not sure how much longer I can take this. Every moment I'm just waiting for time to pass because I just don't know what to do, my soul has been sucked out of me
Posted by MChain on January 28, 2009, at 3:07:10
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Connor on January 27, 2009, at 22:54:26
> I'm thankful that there are others who are going through what I am going through. There was a time when all I did was search the internet for people experiencing the symptoms I did post-ssri. I found a few reports but they were very few.
>
> What I hate more then anything is the professionals telling me it's a result of being depressed (the reason I originally went on the drugs). That is such b*llsh*t, I mean I just came off a 3 week break from school and I actually had some of the best weeks of my life. But even still, everything was much duller then it should have been. My sex drive, motivation, mental ability are consistently low no matter what mood I am in. Life has become unbearably uninteresting and I'm not sure how much longer I can take this. Every moment I'm just waiting for time to pass because I just don't know what to do, my soul has been sucked out of meConnor, it seems like we're in exactly the same situation, which is incredible to me because until now it seemed like ex-ssri users experienced everything under the sun except for my symptoms, and people even seemed to ignore my posts on message boards because of a lack of interest/experience or whatever. I too spend HOURS at a time just googling "SSRI+name a symptom" to see what popped up, and it was usually the same 5 websites and I never got any useful information.
When did you use the ssris (what age range?) and how long have you been off? I kind of feel like things are getting better (its been almost 11 months) but at the same time the cognitive fog is driving me nuts, its like my knowledge of the English language/working memory are both destroyed. I'll read newspaper articles, and though I understand the premise I'm constantly confused by words and phrases, like i'm 5 years old and learning how to read.
I know the frustration of being told your depressed every time you try to reach out to a psychiatrist, its exactly what my current pdoc is telling me, that there is no evidence to support my claim that my brain has been damaged by SSRIs. I am however starting to feel that all psych-meds may not be bad, since my current rate of recovery is incredibly slow, and I also had some kind of weird pain thing (fibromyalgia) at the same time i got depressed originally (age 12). I may give Wellbutrin a try on thursday after I see the psych but I don't know really how I should be going about my recovery, and I don't want to screw things up more.
I did find this study though that lends a little credibility to what we are saying http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/10401230490281618 but the fact that we've been off the medications for awhile already seems to perplex all the doctors. I agree with the people on paxil progress etc. in that this could be a "protracted withdrawal" but I dont feel any physical symptoms, just these psychological things like apathy, low sex-drive, and cognitive dysfunction.
In any case, just hang in there because I think we're gonna both get through this, and if you feel comfortable sharing your e-mail with me please do so. I'm m.chain@yahoo.com
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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