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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by thinkingitover on October 9, 2008, at 15:57:12
Hello all,
I am looking to taper down on my Valium and take it for sleeping only. I currently take 5MG twice a day, so a total of 10 MGS/day. I've been on it about 18 months, so I know all too well that it won't feel good. I'd like to go down to 5MGS/day (just a 5 MG dose in the evening for sleeping).
Does anyone have suggestions/ideas that have worked to their benefit, or ideas on how to best taper without severe side effects, and discuss this with my doc?
Thanks
Posted by Phoenix1 on October 9, 2008, at 18:53:35
In reply to Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by thinkingitover on October 9, 2008, at 15:57:12
The Ashton method seems most humane to me, and has worked wonders for many people who had tried unsuccessfully in the past. See link below:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/
> Hello all,
> I am looking to taper down on my Valium and take it for sleeping only. I currently take 5MG twice a day, so a total of 10 MGS/day. I've been on it about 18 months, so I know all too well that it won't feel good. I'd like to go down to 5MGS/day (just a 5 MG dose in the evening for sleeping).
> Does anyone have suggestions/ideas that have worked to their benefit, or ideas on how to best taper without severe side effects, and discuss this with my doc?
> Thanks
Posted by azalea on October 9, 2008, at 20:01:24
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » thinkingitover, posted by Phoenix1 on October 9, 2008, at 18:53:35
The Ashton method sounds quite reasonable.
Valium (brand name) comes in 2mg, 5mg, and 10mg tablets.
Generic diazepam also comes in 2mg, 5mg, and 10mg scored tablets as well as a liquid solution 1mg/ml.The liquid solution would be ideal for a gradual taper as it would be easy to measure out the exact dosage.
> The Ashton method seems most humane to me, and has worked wonders for many people who had tried unsuccessfully in the past. See link below:
>
> http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/
>
>
> > Hello all,
> > I am looking to taper down on my Valium and take it for sleeping only. I currently take 5MG twice a day, so a total of 10 MGS/day. I've been on it about 18 months, so I know all too well that it won't feel good. I'd like to go down to 5MGS/day (just a 5 MG dose in the evening for sleeping).
> > Does anyone have suggestions/ideas that have worked to their benefit, or ideas on how to best taper without severe side effects, and discuss this with my doc?
> > Thanks
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2008, at 20:12:24
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » Phoenix1, posted by azalea on October 9, 2008, at 20:01:24
I have been on a benzo for over 37 years they no longer work and haven't raised dose in all those years and sometimes when stress very low just skipped doses. Valium has a long half-life once a day is all I take it at night. Right now also tappering . Was on 20mg down to 12.5 and getting lower. Seems I sleep better without it. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on October 10, 2008, at 15:00:01
In reply to Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by thinkingitover on October 9, 2008, at 15:57:12
Gradual non-hurried weaning is what you want, along with tiny steps down in dosage along the way. This can be done by quartering pills, or cutting chunks off pills, or dividing up capsule powder, or getting liquid versions. Basically, reduce dose in a very small increment, for example 1/2mg perhaps, stay there for 4 days, then reduce again. If at any time it is intolerable, go back to the previous dose you were last at, stay there 4 days to stabilize, then reduce again.
Tiny steps, no hurry. You'll get there with the least amount of discomfort this way. For me coming off of 8 years of the antipsychotic zyprexa, the journey from 5mg to 0mg in tiny chunks was about 3 months. Each step down was roughly .25mg (tiny chunks or slivers). Even after that, there was still another month of mild withdrawal and another 2 months of adjustment until I settled into a stable baseline. The moral of the story is, you will reach your goal, just take your time, don't be in a hurry to get there, it is a marathon not a sprint, give the nervous system plenty of time to adjust with each step along the way, avoid traumatic shock to your system which happens when decreasing dose in large steps. And as you already pointed out, there will be some discomfort and adjustment along the way. The goal is to minimize it so you can continue with each day, and to stay focused on the ultimate goal of getting down to just a bedtime dose.
Oh, and if you don't have liquid, don't worry about the doses not being exact. For example if you are cutting or chunking pills, one dose might be .25mg, anothe maybe .33mg, another maybe .20mg. That's ok, small variation like that won't matter, and is actually a good thing because it helps train the brain to become more able to respond quickly and adapt.
Posted by furrball on October 14, 2008, at 1:19:05
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2008, at 20:12:24
for those of you having problems with the valium i totally understand. i just got out of a REALLY hard detox center for being addicted to valium and the way they did it was stop you cold turkey and give you sleep medication along with fena barbitol for siezures. it was not fun but i did it in two weeks. if you want to stop like that though be ready for serious withdrawals tremors, brain shocks, insomnia, anxiety, confusion, and mainly not feeling like yourself it sucks but once your off it seams like youre coming out of a long fog. i see clearer, hear better, even my smell, taste and touch senses have increased its crazy as hell. just know that it is worth it in the end no matter how hard it gets but it does need to be supervised by a doctor.
Posted by Zyprexa on October 14, 2008, at 14:15:40
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2008, at 20:12:24
Philipa,
If they no longer work, why do you still take them?
Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2008, at 19:44:18
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by furrball on October 14, 2008, at 1:19:05
Furrball are you saying you had no taste when on valium as lost mine four years ago. And I'm tapering can't figure out why so tired though . Any answers from you greatly appreciated. And how high was your valium dose? Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2008, at 19:45:16
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » Phillipa, posted by Zyprexa on October 14, 2008, at 14:15:40
Trying to taper off on my own. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on October 14, 2008, at 20:05:09
In reply to Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by thinkingitover on October 9, 2008, at 15:57:12
> Hello all,
> I am looking to taper down on my Valium and take it for sleeping only. I currently take 5MG twice a day, so a total of 10 MGS/day. I've been on it about 18 months, so I know all too well that it won't feel good. I'd like to go down to 5MGS/day (just a 5 MG dose in the evening for sleeping).
> Does anyone have suggestions/ideas that have worked to their benefit, or ideas on how to best taper without severe side effects, and discuss this with my doc?
> ThanksAt 10mgs/day it can be easily tapered down in a matter of a few weeks. That isn't a high dose. And some will advocate an "Ashton Method", which is a certain following, I think partially tainted by a cant towards anti-benzodiazepines in the first place, but to each their own.
At any rate, considering the small size, 10mg only breaks up into 5mg, so you would probably have to use 1 or 2mg tablets, and say 10, 9 or 8, 7, 6, etc... but you may or may not find it necessary to go faster or slower. General psychiatric practice is about 10% per week, so going down 1mg a time, if it is too excruciating to go down 2mg at a time is fine.
In my tapering from much higher doses I found as I approached half of it, going down in doses produced diarrhea. GI problems are common, as Valium normally settles "that region" shall we say.
At 10mg if you just dropped it, it wouldn't be pleasant at all, and I don't recommend it considering the time on it nor just dropping benzodiazepines cold, but I doubt you'd have any seizures or things like that -- you'd just feel all sorts of anxiety spectrum problems.
So that's just my experience, if your anxiety can go through your digestive system too like some people, I would suggest having loperamide (Imodium) on hand.
Despite what the "Ashton method" may say, there is nothing wrong with backtapering if you discover that going from 10 to 8 is too much, well you could backtaper back to 10 for a few more days.
Valium generally has a half life of 24 hours, so you would probably start noticing effects around 5 days later.
-- best wishes
Jay
Posted by manic666 on October 16, 2008, at 12:19:22
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » thinkingitover, posted by yxibow on October 14, 2008, at 20:05:09
10 mg of valium i wish , dont do what that mad srink did to me 10 mg larozapam stopped DEAD.that in valium terms is 70mg.and before you ask why take them if they dont work try stopping 10 loz.anyway after 2 weeks of living death a sane doc agreed to put me back on 4mg loz a day and i levelled out in 3or so days what about that for a detox anyone want to try. mannic666
Posted by yxibow on October 16, 2008, at 17:12:33
In reply to Re: Want to taper down your havin a laugh, posted by manic666 on October 16, 2008, at 12:19:22
> 10 mg of valium i wish , dont do what that mad srink did to me 10 mg larozapam stopped DEAD.that in valium terms is 70mg.and before you ask why take them if they dont work try stopping 10 loz.anyway after 2 weeks of living death a sane doc agreed to put me back on 4mg loz a day and i levelled out in 3or so days what about that for a detox anyone want to try. mannic666
Actually its only about 50mg of Valium varying by person to person, but it is a high dose. I'm still struggling going down from 80 to 75. Its harder than you think at a high dose.That is a harsh and un-recommended thing to do as it can cause seizures at that level to stop dead (or anything, like my effect that happened as I described below)
Even going from 10 to 4 is way beyond the standards of practice -- it is usually around 10% per week unless you can stand greater and it isn't producing deleterious effects (other than anxiety which is inevitable).
I would never suggest dropping a high dose of any benzodiazepine. I did, when I was in college and didn't know much about them, Tranxene 15mg 3x/day and pretty soon afterwards the muscles in my scalp were moving.(The Tranxene was from an off campus doctor, its an esoteric agent, and they wanted to move me to the on campus clinic -- ugh, anyhow times past, so this [person] below took over management)
The psychiatrist on campus, who was basically a benzophobe, who I hated anyhow and my psychologist didn't have a particularly fond opinion of her either, only gave me half back!
The emergency clinic, which was not really much of one, the doctors basically scoffed it off that it would go away. Its still here 10 years later, re-emerging with anxiety periods and basically locking up my back and scalp.
Only Soma helps the scalp but I can't be prescribed that with my medicine load, so I am stuck with Robaxin, its poor cousin.-- Jay
Posted by manic666 on October 17, 2008, at 5:14:25
In reply to Re: Want to taper down your havin a laugh » manic666, posted by yxibow on October 16, 2008, at 17:12:33
jay i had to beg my gp to put me back on loz or i new i would not make it after being on a high dose .he said his hands were tied with the srinks disition , i said if you dont i will die its that simple with drink or overdose. he consuted the head g.p an they came up with 4 mg a day the most they were aloud in england to precribe. i settled for that . i took 2 on my first time back an the feeling transformed my mental state , not for long but inough to carry on .you may wonder how i came to be on 10 loz. i was on a repeat prescription of 28 a month,but when in remision saved up the loz istead of canceling the script so managed to save up loads witch was my downfall . because when i got bad i had a large supply nobody new an soon started taking to many an trouble loomed . manic666
Posted by yxibow on October 17, 2008, at 19:29:14
In reply to Re: Want to taper down your havin a laugh, posted by manic666 on October 17, 2008, at 5:14:25
> jay i had to beg my gp to put me back on loz or i new i would not make it after being on a high dose .he said his hands were tied with the srinks disition , i said if you dont i will die its that simple with drink or overdose. he consuted the head g.p an they came up with 4 mg a day the most they were aloud in england to precribe. i settled for that . i took 2 on my first time back an the feeling transformed my mental state , not for long but inough to carry on .you may wonder how i came to be on 10 loz. i was on a repeat prescription of 28 a month,but when in remision saved up the loz istead of canceling the script so managed to save up loads witch was my downfall . because when i got bad i had a large supply nobody new an soon started taking to many an trouble loomed . manic666
Yes, that's the downfall of going AMA on your prescription management. I mean I can't blame you for wanting to drown your pain with more medication.. well that sounds a bit accusatory, I can't find a better way of saying it politely -- mitigate, maybe? -- for a lack of better words, but it unfortunately can create a situation like this.
Its the opposite of saving a "cushion", the extra amount that accumulates because some insurance can be overridden at less than 28 days, that people save enough for a bad spell but otherwise stick to their prescribed dose, or it occurs because the amount that is actually used is slightly less than the prescribed amount because medication is being adjusted.
I won't go further into that because whether or not I have done that, I don't advocate having large extra amounts of controlled prescriptions around, as it can lead to more deleterious effects than yours and I am not going to describe it but one can get the gist.
I won't say it but [unnamed pharmacy #1] won't dispense the benzodiazepine load I had before certainly, they counted it up against my weight and refused.
The other [unnamed pharmacy #2] has a documented reason from my doctor on file and that is where I have been prescribed from.
Doctors are a bit skittish here with what the DEA having their ear to the ground and their license, which is their ticket to a career.
But here you can prescribe more than "a typical dose", your insurance may or may not pay for it, but with preauthorization or with paying for the extra amount, you can get the prescription you need.
-- tidingsJay
Posted by manic666 on October 18, 2008, at 4:38:03
In reply to Re: Want to taper down your havin a laugh » manic666, posted by yxibow on October 17, 2008, at 19:29:14
jay , my wife is now in charge of my meds.at first atfer my overdose i was priscribed weekly .an only to my wife who is my registed carer . in england if your wife has to give up her job to watch an monitor you she is payed to do so by the state .they figure it saves on soical workers an nurses,so in theory your wife becomes your nurse, an is payed by a grade sytem.i havent got a clue now were she hides the loz she is taking no chances.but if i relapse an she noes it will help then an only then will she add a extra loz, witch i will tell you is when i may be climbing the walls.the hole hospital delay,s an bad judgment got me into this situation, delays of up to 10 weeks left me no choise on storeing loz . an when they did see me they nearly kill me. there is no wonder we self medicate. the time when not cancelled all my apointments were with different srinks who hadnt got a clue who the f/ck you were, well mabye a number.the top man when he discharged me from hospital had never seen me till then an sent me home without interviewing me . the week after i went to see him as back up an he said who are you . then they wonder why were crazy.mannic666
Posted by cactus on October 18, 2008, at 6:35:16
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by furrball on October 14, 2008, at 1:19:05
Does anyone else know much about the phenobarbital detox program? I'd like to reduce my 6mg of clonazepam a day, down to .5 or 1 mg and I was wondering if this is a good method to do so. I will probably need to stay on some kind of dose for medical reasons but I'd like to do it quickly. Does anyone think this is a good idea or should I just do a slow taper. I generally don't suffer to badly from benzo withdrawals, I'm very lucky in that respect compared to SSRI withdrawal. SSRI withdrawal is always living hell for me. I did manage to get to 4mg of clonazepam a while back but it took 2 month and I had no side effects/withdrawals at all during that time.
Is it worth looking into? Slow or fast, what do you think?
Posted by yxibow on October 18, 2008, at 19:29:39
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by cactus on October 18, 2008, at 6:35:16
> Does anyone else know much about the phenobarbital detox program? I'd like to reduce my 6mg of clonazepam a day, down to .5 or 1 mg and I was wondering if this is a good method to do so. I will probably need to stay on some kind of dose for medical reasons but I'd like to do it quickly. Does anyone think this is a good idea or should I just do a slow taper. I generally don't suffer to badly from benzo withdrawals, I'm very lucky in that respect compared to SSRI withdrawal. SSRI withdrawal is always living hell for me. I did manage to get to 4mg of clonazepam a while back but it took 2 month and I had no side effects/withdrawals at all during that time.
>
> Is it worth looking into? Slow or fast, what do you think?I'm not quite sure what you're referring to about the "phenobarbital detox" -- you want to replace klonopin with a rather dangerous medication while withdrawing ? There's a reason why benzodiazepines were created so people wouldn't overdose or commit suicide -as much- on a prescribed dose.
As for wanting to reduce the klonopin, if you feel you've habituated and it isn't useful any more or you don't like feeling overmedicated, I don't see any reason why not.
You're not going to be able to do it "quickly" and be able to withstand the anxiety or even possibly have seizures. 6mg is a considerable dose, I have gotten up over 4mg before switching to Valium and it hasn't been easy to taper.
Realistically, unless you want to be in a hospital for many weeks to an unknown period, its something that will have to be tapered outpatient, by yourself, over months. You just can't go down like that especially after being on it for a period of time.
Hot flashes from the fight or flight system, diarrhea, neurological problems, all sorts of things can happen dropping something fast or even cold, which would be playing with fire.
The best rule is still about 10% per week, give or take, maybe more if you can stand it, maybe less if you have to backtrack, and there is -NOTHING- wrong with having to go back up because your functionality has reduced so much that you cannot stand it. It will still be there, and you'll just have to go slower.
Is this something your doctor recommended or you just feel that it is time. Because you should do it with your doctor if that is what you wish to do.
Its what I have anyhow, and yes, it has taken months to half my Valium.
-- best wishes
Jay
Posted by cactus on October 19, 2008, at 6:47:02
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » cactus, posted by yxibow on October 18, 2008, at 19:29:39
Thanks Jay, I just read an article about it and wondered if it was worth a try. I tried to find the link for it but I can't, so I suppose it will be the slow taper. I did find some other articles about it but after reading those I'm not so sure it would be a good idea. It's probably going to take 6-12 months. Clonazepam has been a huge life line for me. I just hope that I'm not deluding myself that I don't need to be on 6mg a day anymore. It's a hefty dose but has kept me going.
Posted by yxibow on October 20, 2008, at 1:55:25
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » yxibow, posted by cactus on October 19, 2008, at 6:47:02
> Thanks Jay, I just read an article about it and wondered if it was worth a try. I tried to find the link for it but I can't, so I suppose it will be the slow taper. I did find some other articles about it but after reading those I'm not so sure it would be a good idea. It's probably going to take 6-12 months. Clonazepam has been a huge life line for me. I just hope that I'm not deluding myself that I don't need to be on 6mg a day anymore. It's a hefty dose but has kept me going.
I don't think you're deluding yourself -- its how you feel about it, and the reality that some day -- this may take years or over a decade for some people, there will be habituation and at a high dose it becomes a lot more difficult.
I think bringing the dose down might, while adjusting to it in the short term feel uncomfortable, allow you to feel the world more. This is definitely not from a benzophobic view, its just from the amount you're on, which can impair things like driving and memory, in the short, or the long term. I'm sure you've adjusted enough that you would not notice these issues as much and maybe they aren't occurring for you.
Also some people are strong metabolizers of certain medications, that could be you.
Its really up to you and your doctor, but sometimes less is better.
-- tidings
Jay
Posted by furrball on October 20, 2008, at 18:39:29
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice » furrball, posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2008, at 19:44:18
i never lost my taste completely but when i started sobering up all of my senses just seemed like they were enhanced. i took about thirty to fourty mgs a day for five years
Posted by Phillipa on October 20, 2008, at 19:38:28
In reply to Re: Want to taper down on my valium- Advice, posted by furrball on October 20, 2008, at 18:39:29
Thanks furrball maybe something to look forward to who knows? Love Phillipa
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