Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 775476

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Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by Enigma on August 28, 2007, at 20:41:33

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10

Out of all the people on this site, linkadge, I didn't think even you could be so ignorant.

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » linkadge

Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2007, at 21:44:32

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10

My anxiety and depression if I even have it may just be boredom but it was caused the anxiety diagnosed as PTSD due to the childhood issues of a Mother on a new med cortisone they knew nothing about as new at the time and she got addisons disease and the horrible mental side effects it can cause. She died when I was l7. So I do not believe my anxiety is genetic just life circumstances affected me negatively and created intense fear in me. After that I grew myself up as I had to take care of myself. So different circumstances can also contribute to anxiety/depression in my own circumastances. Can only speak for me. Phillipa

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything

Posted by Optimist on August 28, 2007, at 22:39:54

In reply to Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Enigma on August 11, 2007, at 11:35:41

Have you considered hormone replacement therapy? Testosterone, cortisol, T3/T4, dhea, pregnenolone, estrogen, progesterone, etc...

If your hormones are out of wack, antidepressants aren't going to be very helpful.

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:29:57

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10


Hi Linkadge,

I have social anxiety,GAD and depression since childhood.And i do not recall any traumatic or stressful event taking place in my life till yet.As far as animal models are concerned,they can not be taken seriously.I have seen thousand things being investigated and drugs found using mice and rats.But,It does not lead to anything in the end.You mean to say what happens to rats is more believable then my own case? If i had been normal in childhood,i would have easily said my childhood was as good as anyone.No stressfull events but still terrible mental problems.Can yot tell me what your animal model suggests in my case "conclusively"? Thanks.

Jatin

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:36:49

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by existentialist on August 28, 2007, at 12:28:59


Hi existentialist,

In USA they are illegal.But do you get any "punishment" for taking illegal things except trivial ones like doing community service,kept on probation,sent to rehablilitation centre and at worst one month jail? I reside in India.Well if i am caught taking any of the drugs that you have mentioned,i will be sent to jail for six months,if i get caught second time then it will be for two years.And if i am found having these drugs in higher then certain quantity with me,then i am deemed drug peddlar and not consumer.In that case,i will have to spend time behind bar for cool 10 years.

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:42:29

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 28, 2007, at 20:41:33


Well,I would not like to use the word "ignorant" simply because somebody is having different views then us.i support linkadge's rights of having own views on the issue.

 

To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:42:29

These took me all of 5 minutes to find on the web:

http://www.depression.com/causes_of_depression.html
Causes of Depression

Depression has no single cause; often, it results from a combination of things. You may have no idea why depression has struck you.

Whatever its cause, depression is not just a state of mind. It is related to physical changes in the brain, and connected to an imbalance of a type of chemical that carries signals in your brain and nerves. These chemicals are called neurotransmitters.

---

www.bipolar.com

Scientists don’t really know what causes bipolar disorder, sometimes called manic depression. They do think that family history plays a role. Most people with bipolar disorder have a relative with the same condition or with some other mood disorder.

But family history alone does not cause someone to have bipolar disorder. We don’t yet know what those other things are.
This is what we DO know about bipolar disorder:

* Bipolar disorder most often starts in teenagers and young adults. But it also can occur in children and older adults.
* Bipolar disorder equally affects people of all races and backgrounds.
* Special chemicals in the brain may be involved. If the levels of these chemicals are out of balance, it may be harder for brain cells to work as they should.
* Bipolar disorder also could be connected to hormone levels. Hormones are chemicals in the body that do certain things. Experts have noticed a link between thyroid hormone levels and bipolar disorder.
* Also, certain parts of the brain may have a different size or shape in people with bipolar disorder. The changes could be a cause or symptom of the illness.
* In some cases, other illnesses may play a role in bipolar disorder.

Myth: Once bipolar disorder is controlled, people can stop their medicine.
Fact: Treatment of bipolar disorder is usually lifelong. Unless a healthcare provider says it’s okay, people shouldn’t stop medicine just because they are feeling better. Medicine can continue to keep the condition controlled.

Myth: Bipolar symptoms are always triggered by some event.
Fact: Symptoms of bipolar disorder are often triggered by a stressful event, but not always. Sometimes mood swings happen without any obvious triggers.

Bipolar disorder medicines may be used alone or with others. Some medicines may take time to start working. Types of bipolar disorder medicines include:

* Mood stabilizers. These may delay or relieve episodes of mania (highs) or depression (lows). They can help people go longer between mood episodes.
* Antidepressants. These are often used with a mood stabilizer in people with depressive episodes. If used alone, antidepressants may increase the chances of a person with bipolar disorder switching into mania.
* Antipsychotics. These are medicines that are mostly used to treat mania. They may also be used to treat psychosis that can occur during severe episodes of mania or depression. Patients with severe anxiety or agitation may also receive antipsychotics. Antipsychotics may be used alone or with other medicines for treating bipolar disorder.
* Other medicines might be suggested by the healthcare provider when a person with bipolar disorder cannot sleep or feels nervous.
* Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is not a medicine. It is a medical treatment used to help people with severe mania or depression. It can also help people who do not do well with medicine.

---

I did find 2 other sites that tried to say depression and such was NOT caused by chemical imbalances.. BUT, GUESS WHAT? They were SELLING SOMETHING. Yep, propaganda so they could sell their books and audio tape sets. The sites I listed aren't selling a thing.

I have bipolar disorder. Like it may or may not say above, it's LIFELONG illness. So, tree hugging, going to live with monks for a year, isn't going to cure me of anything.

Also, I can FEEL the chemical imbalance. Yes, try and tell me I can't. I know when I'm calm, and I know when suddenly, for no reason, severely angry, full of rage, and irritable, or depressed to a point where I can't do ANYTHING except lie in bed.
I was fine Sunday, and in bed Monday and Tuesday. I hope people talking about MY disorder actually SUFFER from my disorder before they spew their BS opinions about it. Having a different opinion is one thing. Having to listen to BS is another.

I'm gonna go hug a tree now, and maybe do deep breathing exercises in the woods, and I'm sure that will clear me right up. Yeah, that's sarcasm.

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 9:50:10

In reply to To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52

To the message that stated if you can't prove something then it isn't so, I believe it you look in you own life you will find many things you believe in that might or might not be provable that you believe in. For instance, you have been told the earth revolves around the sun and you have seen it on a telescope and through pictures but you have not actually seen it so it isn't provable by yourself yet you believe in its existence. Maybe this isn't the best example, all I am saying it many things exists in the world at this present time, and are hard to prove. Those things are known sometimes by a hypothesis that scientists use to prove but not not actually seen or felt but are accepted to truths. Maybe depression as a chemical imbalance is the same. Since all ads are accepted to treat them yet how they actual work is not known. So maybe we all not to agree not to agree.

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 10:05:46

In reply to To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52

Why are people trying to blast someone's view that his depression is biological based versus chemical based. It is going back to the nature vs nuture argument. Aren't we here to support each other or to aruge our knowlege over someone's else's. I came to this board to find support but so far I see more debate over who knows more. Knowledge is good to share but not to hurt people who far as I know are already in a bad place for the most part. I know the day I came here I was in a dark place. I spoke up, which for me in the place it was hard, and all I received was challenges on my knowledge. Which has come from the internet and the various doctors I have in my life. I don't claim to know everything. I, too, used what knowledge I have gleemed from literature I have researched, I sort out the good, the bad, and the ugly, and then have to decided what applies. I try to share what I think is helpful and what has worked for me only to help someone else in the same dark place I struggle daily to live within. I hope one day to emerge victoriously but I realize I need help and I need help from others that share that walk. But here, I am not getting the sense we are all in this together for the same reasons. It seems some want to appear as the most knowledgable or maybe it helps thinking it is a chemical thing and drugs are the best, I don't know what the motivation is. I only know that it seems like an honest debate isn't going on. It seems Enigma stated his case, and everyone is arguing with him and down playing how he feels which is legit. I think I will move on, to a safer place where my feeling are considered above knowledge. Good luck to all.

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological

Posted by gardenergirl on August 29, 2007, at 10:38:33

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 10:05:46

I don't believe that "bashing" someone's belief system about their depression or other illness is likely to be helpful to them. However, if someone is taking a unilateral approach to treatment, i.e. either medical intervention or psychological or alternative, etc., AND if this approach is not working, it might be helpful to talk to them about other ways of thinking about depression and treatment. If someone is continuing to "do the same thing" even though it's not working and they expect different results, I think they are more likely to be disappointed. But trying a different approach, or adding a different approach is making a change that could lead to a different result. It's been shown in the literature that a combination of medical plus psychological interventions often is more effective in treating many types of depression than either one alone. (Sorry for general language and no cites...in a hurry here.)

So encouraging someone to think about cause and treatment from a different perspective, while respecting their beliefs, can be helpful and educational, imo. But that last part is crucial--respect.

gg, who hasn't read the whole thread, so if this is a redux of someone else's post, I apologize.

 

Please be civil » rskontos

Posted by Deputy 10derheart on August 29, 2007, at 17:08:05

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 10:05:46

>>Why are people trying to blast someone's view
>>everyone is arguing with him and down playing how he feels

Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.

If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.

>>I think I will move on, to a safer place

I'm sorry Babble doesn't feel safe to you. I understand the need to move on, but maybe at some point you'll reconsider? The idea is to allow and value everyone's POV, as long as it's expressed within the civility guidelines. Sometimes, we have 'bumps' along that path, but maybe it could become smoother again? Good luck to you, too, whatever you decide.

- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob

 

Please be civil » Enigma

Posted by Deputy 10derheart on August 29, 2007, at 17:08:12

In reply to To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52

>>they spew their BS opinions about it.
>>Having to listen to BS is another.
>>I didn't think even you could be so ignorant.

Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.

If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.

10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob


 

thanks for this post, gg (nm) » gardenergirl

Posted by Deputy 10derheart on August 29, 2007, at 17:13:13

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological, posted by gardenergirl on August 29, 2007, at 10:38:33

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2007, at 20:44:57

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:29:57

>I have social anxiety,GAD and depression since >childhood.And i do not recall any traumatic or >stressful event taking place in my life till yet.

k

>As far as animal models are concerned,they can >not be taken seriously.I have seen thousand >things being investigated and drugs found using >mice and rats.But,It does not lead to anything >in the end.

Actually, it leads to a lot in the end. %99 of the psychiatric drugs we take today were likely originally identified for their activities in rodents.

>You mean to say what happens to rats is more >believable then my own case? If i had been >normal in childhood,i would have easily said my >childhood was as good as anyone.

No, what I said is not being taken correctly. I did not say that some depression may not have a biological origin, I am just saying that as of this date, we only really have leads, or hints as to specific biochemical abnormalities.

>No stressfull events but still terrible mental >problems.Can yot tell me what your animal model >suggests in my case "conclusively"? Thanks.

Take obesity for example. I am sure there are some people who are obese who have absolutely no controll over their illness (ie purely genetic). We do know, however, that obesity is on the rise, so, unless this bad gene is multiplying at an exponential rate, one must consider the influence of other factors.

As of this date, no one gene has been identified as being responsable for depression, nor has any one diagnostic marker been definitivly outlined. While I am sure, that some people's depression may be solely due to a bad gene, I would argue that for a large number of with depression, environmental factors play a role in the progression of their disease.

Environmental factors needn't always be "stress". Just as environemntal toxins can cause selective dopaminergic neurotoxicity, perhaps some sort of serotonergic neurotoxin is the cause of an individuals depression. Nutritional imbalences may also be at the heart of certain depressive states.

For some people, considering their disease as a purely genetic one perhaps helps relive some of the guilt associated with the depressive state.

In the end though, there is little proof than any one person's depression is a purely genetic phenomina.

Linkadge

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2007, at 21:06:26

In reply to To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52

>These took me all of 5 minutes to find on the >web:

You can find a lot of biased information in a very short period of time.

Again, I never said that depression may not be of a purely biological origin for some individuals, but there is little proof that the majority of depression is biological.


>Whatever its cause, depression is not just a >state of mind. It is related to physical changes >in the brain, and connected to an imbalance of a >type of chemical that carries signals in your >brain and nerves. These chemicals are called >neurotransmitters.

Petting a dog will increase your serotonin levels.


>This is what we DO know about bipolar disorder:


>* Special chemicals in the brain may be >involved. If the levels of these chemicals are >out of balance, it may be harder for brain cells >to work as they should.

They can only really say "may".

>* Also, certain parts of the brain may have a >different size or shape in people with bipolar >disorder. The changes could be a cause or >symptom of the illness.

Again, they can only say "may". They also say that brain changes could be a *cause* or a *result* of bipolar disorder.

>Myth: Bipolar symptoms are always triggered by >some event.
>Fact: Symptoms of bipolar disorder are often >triggered by a stressful event, but not always. >Sometimes mood swings happen without any obvious >triggers.

Again, they are not discounting environmental influences.

>I did find 2 other sites that tried to say >depression and such was NOT caused by chemical >imbalances.. BUT, GUESS WHAT? They were SELLING >SOMETHING. Yep, propaganda so they could sell >their books and audio tape sets. The sites I >listed aren't selling a thing.

To be blunt, everbody is trying to sell something. There is a profession called psychiatry, whereby the livelyhood of the professional is directly proportional to the number of ill patients he or she has.

>I have bipolar disorder. Like it may or may not >say above, it's LIFELONG illness. So, tree >hugging, going to live with monks for a year, >isn't going to cure me of anything.

Why do people go from one extreme to the other?? (Besides being bipolar?). Its notnecessarily about tree hugging, or joing a church, or getting exercised, or living with monks, etc. Recognizing the environmental factors that influences the disease can help a patient to make the best recovery.

I may still take my medication, but if I recognize that too much stress in school is making my depression worse, for example, then I will try and cut back. Nobody lives in a vaccume.

>I was fine Sunday, and in bed Monday and >Tuesday. I hope people talking about MY disorder >actually SUFFER from my disorder before they >spew their BS opinions about it. Having a >different opinion is one thing. Having to listen >to BS is another.

Its not just one opinion. Some of the most respected molecular biologists who are currently working on reasearch into the etiology of bipolar admit that the recognition of environemental factors is crutial to recover. Dr. Manjii, for instance, is currently trying to uncover the molecular action of the mood stabilizers essentially says how important it is for bipolars to reduce stress on acount of the way that stress can increase PKC, cortisol, glutamate, etc. He considers bipolar disorder to be a disorder of loss of cellular resilliance, whereby there is a reduced cellular tollerance for environmental stress. So, yes there are genetic influences, and there are environmental influences.

>I'm gonna go hug a tree now, and maybe do deep >breathing exercises in the woods, and I'm sure >that will clear me right up. Yeah, that's >sarcasm.

To close your mind to the possable ways that environmental factors can influence your illness may lead to a worse outcome. This isn't about "tree hugging", this is about knowing how to go about your day in a way that keeps yourself sane. Its stuff you're likely doing already.

Linkadge


 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2007, at 21:11:07

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 9:50:10

If you want to believe your mood disoder is a result of this or that, then it is your right.

All I am saying, is that some people adopt a mindset whereby their disease is necessarily %100 biological, and therefore completely discount all other possable influences.

This is a grave mistake (IMHO), and may lead to a worse outcome.

Just like how my Dad says how his high cholesterol is genetic, and pops his cholesterol pill on the couch before preceeding to wolf down t-bone steak, fries, potatoe with sour cream, coke, and sausage for desert.

He has closed his mind to other influences, and therefore he will likely suffer.

All I am saying is keep your mind open.

Like Dr. Peter Kramer suggested, you acutally do need to "Listen to Prozac".


Linkadge

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by jhj on August 30, 2007, at 6:31:55

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2007, at 20:44:57


Actually, it leads to a lot in the end. %99 of the psychiatric drugs we take today were likely originally identified for their activities in rodents.

99% of drugs today were "likely" originally identified.I think you yourself seem to be in doubt about this 99% figure.Anyway,even if i believe that is true,then no wonder why none of these drugs has any beneficial effect on me despite trying atleast 20 of them in years.

I did not say that some depression may not have a biological origin, I am just saying that as of this date, we only really have leads, or hints as to specific biochemical abnormalities.

surprising.I am living human being and i am saying that my problems started in childhood despite having good childhood,leaving in healthy environment,being sound financially and eating good food,i have developed these problems.In fact,when i started understand things when i was around 5-6 years old,one of the first things i understood was that i am abnormal kid and something is wrong with me and it has proved to be the fact.I do not know if this according to you is only hint but in my opinion it is conclusive proof that it was biological.


As of this date, no one gene has been identified as being responsable for depression, nor has any one diagnostic marker been definitivly outlined. While I am sure, that some people's depression may be solely due to a bad gene, I would argue that for a large number of with depression, environmental factors play a role in the progression of their disease.

Scientist have identified many genes responsible for depression.But,it is not caused by one gene.It is due to the complex effect of verious genes each one play small part in the depression.Human brain is very complicated things if scientists have not been able to understand the mechanism and continue to experiment on rodents then it is their problem.I was not raised amidst any environmental toxicity or did not think i had nutritionally unbalance diet.I have not seen anybody else from my area having the same problem.I have seen some tragic incident after these problems were there but,they have not worsened my problems in any way.It is same as it was before years?no more,no less.So,how can it be said that illness has progressed?

For some people, considering their disease as a purely genetic one perhaps helps relive some of the guilt associated with the depressive state.

True but partially.It is not some of the "guilt" but complete guilt.In short,whatever has happened to me or happening to me is purely because of biological reasons and neither i nor my family nor my immediate environment has any role to play whatsoever.Thanks.


 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by jhj on August 30, 2007, at 6:39:54

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by linkadge on August 29, 2007, at 21:11:07


Keep mind open to only convincing things.Because one is always bombarded with some useful and many unuseful information and we see clearly that environmental factors are not affacting us we should filter it out as junk information and should not overburdan our mind.

 

You're welcome. :) (nm) » Deputy 10derheart

Posted by gardenergirl on August 30, 2007, at 9:54:46

In reply to thanks for this post, gg (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by Deputy 10derheart on August 29, 2007, at 17:13:13

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2007, at 13:40:36

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 30, 2007, at 6:31:55

>surprising.I am living human being and i am >saying that my problems started in childhood >despite having good childhood,leaving in healthy >environment,being sound financially and eating >good food,i have developed these problems.In >fact,when i started understand things when i was >around 5-6 years old,one of the first things i >understood was that i am abnormal kid and >something is wrong with me and it has proved to >be the fact.I do not know if this according to >you is only hint but in my opinion it is >conclusive proof that it was biological.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything they don't want to believe. All I am saying is that some people can become convinced of things that there is really little proof of.

An example is when people come on the board saying things like "I am dopamine deficiant". I am sure it all seems justified in their mind.

>Scientist have identified many genes responsible >for depression.

No they havn't. They have found genes that are associated with depression in certain persons. They find genes that are of higher frequency in patients with depression. This doesn't mean that the gene is responsable, or that the gene has any predictive validity of illness. There is a lot of genetic research compilations on www.neurotransmitter.net. But for every genetic association, you're likely to find an equally well designed study showing no association.


>But,it is not caused by one gene.It is due to >the complex effect of verious genes each one >play small part in the depression.

That is a theory yes.

>I was not raised amidst any environmental >toxicity or did not think i had nutritionally >unbalance diet.

How is the level of stress in your life? Do you work in a stressfull profession?

>True but partially.It is not some of the "guilt" >but complete guilt.In short,whatever has >happened to me or happening to me is purely >because of biological reasons and neither i nor >my family nor my immediate environment has any >role to play whatsoever.Thanks.

Thats fine. I am just arguing that to close the door on certain possabilities is not really all that benificial in the long run. To say that there might be environmental influences on your mood is not to accuse you of anything. Do you notice that your mood is worse during times of stress? Do you notice that your mood changes with the seasons or duration of daylight? Do you notice that your mood fluctuates with varying levels of exercise etc etc.

Even my mother, who is harcore on medications, and genetic causes, still knows that a warm bath can help relax her. Thats what I am talking about.


Linkadge

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep. » jhj

Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2007, at 13:47:45

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by jhj on August 30, 2007, at 6:39:54

>Keep mind open to only convincing things.Because >one is always bombarded with some useful and >many unuseful information and we see clearly >that environmental factors are not affacting us >we should filter it out as junk information and >should not overburdan our mind.

But why is what psychiatry says so convincing? They have a bunch of medications that were essentially discovered by accident and generally defy most studies designed to cross examine potential mechanisms. The medications can fail some 30-60% of the time or more, and do not always lead to remission. In addition, the majority of all published clinical trials on antidepressants fail to destinguish between active drug and placebo.

I'm not saying don't give anything a try, I am just saying that that the majority of uneducated faith in psychiatry and its cures is probably unfounded.

I am sure too, that there have been a number of cures that have been thrown in the "junk" pile on account of an effort to bolster public opinion of a particular point of view.


Linkadge

 

Enigma, can you describe what it is like for you?

Posted by Existentialist on August 31, 2007, at 20:07:44

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep. » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2007, at 13:47:45

Hi enigma,
I'm trying to get a better idea of what exactly depression is like. Can you describe to me how you see the world, how you feel, and what it's like for, what is your experience of life like?

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by jhj on September 1, 2007, at 8:11:23

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep. » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2007, at 13:47:45

But why is what psychiatry says so convincing? They have a bunch of medications that were essentially discovered by accident and generally defy most studies designed to cross examine potential mechanisms. The medications can fail some 30-60% of the time or more, and do not always lead to remission. In addition, the majority of all published clinical trials on antidepressants fail to destinguish between active drug and placebo.

There was a major study in real environment starD done by NIMH.And after four phases 2/3 patients reported remission(not improvement).Majority is very subjective things.There are countless studies showing efficacy of all the drugs and advantage over placebo.

I am sure too, that there have been a number of cures that have been thrown in the "junk" pile on account of an effort to bolster public opinion of a particular point of view.

Well,i come from the country(India) where psychiatry is discouraged and not bolstered.India has taught alternative therapies like yoga,meditation etc. to the world and they are always preferred over medicines in India.Not that i have not tried anything.I have tried CBT too.But it is safe to say that CBT,yoga,meditation are absolute piece of rubbish that does not work. You people have started practicing yoga,meditation now.Out buddhist monks and hindu saints have been doing that for thousands of years and i have seen that almost every person in India does that.But,i have not said anything very positive about it even from healthy person except small reduction in stress and minor relaxation.

 

Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt

Posted by jhj on September 1, 2007, at 8:46:05

In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2007, at 13:40:36


No they havn't. They have found genes that are associated with depression in certain persons. They find genes that are of higher frequency in patients with depression. This doesn't mean that the gene is responsable, or that the gene has any predictive validity of illness. There is a lot of genetic research compilations on www.neurotransmitter.net. But for every genetic association, you're likely to find an equally well designed study showing no association.

Even those diseases which are widely believed to be genetically based like diabetes,heart attack etc can not be predicted.No genetic test is available for these diseases too. The reason is many genes combine to lead to those diseases and we have very small information about gene melfunctioning in human being.In fact,genetics is very new subject and if you see two years all baby walking slowly,it does not indicate that he or she is only going to walk slowly for ever even after growing up.In fact,it is the other way around.It can be reasonably safe to predict that child will be able to walk fast and even run in the future.

That is a theory yes.

It is not a theory.It is common sense.One does not need to be rocket scientist to understand that.it is self explanatory truism.

How is the level of stress in your life? Do you work in a stressfull profession?

There is no stress at all in my life.My job does not require me to be stressful and my organisation is very liberal and i have got promotions when i did not expect those.I have got sufficient money now where i can even afford to loss the job.My parents have clearly told me that i do not need to worry in any case because they have saved enough money for me keeping in mind my illness where i can live without even doing job.

To say that there might be environmental influences on your mood is not to accuse you of anything. Do you notice that your mood is worse during times of stress? Do you notice that your mood changes with the seasons or duration of daylight? Do you notice that your mood fluctuates with varying levels of exercise etc etc.

It is not equal to accusing me but it means accusing my parents or family or environment or country.I have thought about these things a lot and conclusion is that my parents have been great to me.I tried to find the reasons to blame parents or family but i could not.And as far as my country is concerned,many surveys about measuring happiness have come out with similar conclusion that indians are the happiest people and most excited and optimistic about future.After seeing my country in past decade or so,i can not blame them because it is rapidly emerging as global superpower.
As far as my mood is concerned as i wrote in my earlier post too that i have dysthymia.It has not fluctuated significantly in 15 years so how it can fluctuate during the day or during bath or during excercise.It is the same gloomy for 24 hours never goes substantially up nor down.

 

Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep.

Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2007, at 9:17:08

In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by jhj on September 1, 2007, at 8:11:23

>There was a major study in real environment >starD done by NIMH.And after four phases 2/3 >patients reported remission(not >improvement).Majority is very subjective >things.There are countless studies showing >efficacy of all the drugs and advantage over >placebo.

I'd like to see a link to that. I remember reading some starD study but it lead to no 2/3 remitting.

The majority is the right word to use. There was some lady who essentially analyzed the results from all available published clinical trials on the newer antidepressants. Her findings were that when all clinical trials were considered, the antidepressants failed to outperform placebo.

>Well,i come from the country(India) where >psychiatry is discouraged and not >bolstered.India has taught alternative therapies >like yoga,meditation etc. to the world and they >are always preferred over medicines in India.Not >that i have not tried anything.I have tried CBT >too.But it is safe to say that >CBT,yoga,meditation are absolute piece of >rubbish that does not work.

For starters, its not fair to say, such and such is a "piece of rubbish that does not work". You don't know how well such treatments work for others, you only know how well they work for yourself. Just because a med, or a therapy doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't help others.

Areobic exercise, such as running, is not the same as yoga. Running has been shown to increase PEA levels, serotonin levels, BDNF, GDNF, NGF, FGF-2, enhance hippocampal neurogenesis, regulate HPA axis function, alter serotonin/dopamine autoreceptor function, modulate gaba levels, increase nightime melatonin output, you name it.
Perhaps not everybody can run 30-45 min a day, but other exercises can help too.

Exercise is *both* a environmental, and a biological treatment. This demonstrates the inseperability of the two. Environmental influences can have real biological impact.

No, exercise may not cure you, but it can help some reduce their medication, it can also help some get to remission.


Second of all, there are other alternatives that have antidepressant properties. SJW for instance, has outperformed standard antidepressants in many trials, some even for severe depression. There are other alternative treatments like SAMe, that have helped TRD in certain studies.

Hallucinogens can produce remission from depression (albeit tempoarary) for some individuals, and they would be considered alternative. The antidepressant effect of other herbs has been established too.

Linkadge


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