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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:38:00
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » polarbear206, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 21:12:35
>>>What people don't realize is the extent to which I am crippled by angedonia. Without heroine it takes weeks of procastenation just to take a shower.
Have you had heart failure and chronic fatigue sydnrome investigated?
Posted by FredPotter on July 3, 2007, at 22:15:44
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 20:37:30
Try reading "Straight Life" by Art and Laurie Pepper as an antidote to taking up heroin
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Squiggles on July 3, 2007, at 21:21:59
I mean Heroine, I was prescribed morphine suphate for my stomuch pain which turned out yo be psychosometic but it didn't do anything for my depression. My stomuch pain went away when I increased the dosageof my Effexor.
I don't really know if I can maintain the Heroine dosage. As I said at the moment I take it once or twice a month. The last thing I want is suffer even more depression if and when I have to kick H.
It is illegal and no Pdoc in UK will precribe it.Thanks for your input.
I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:57:07
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:38:00
I have had ECG donew on my heart and it looks fine and I don't have chronic fatigue sydnrome, so I am told. I don't feel tired, I just feel uneasy as if I am feeling withdrawal symptoms. I went one and half year without any opiods but the feeling never went away so I don't think it is withdrawal symptoms but it feels that way. I just don't have any motivation to do anything. My mind seems to have stopped. I can't concentrate and don't enjoy anything e.g. eating, taking a shower walking and I have no sexual desire and haven't has sex for the last four years.
I had only used heroine twice in my life before and the first time I was really sick.
I used to smoke opium on and off. Could it be that my brain chemistry has permenantly changed because of opium. But I know people who have kicked heroine after ten years of use without permenant damage.
Posted by Phillipa on July 3, 2007, at 22:57:47
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
Babak so when you say crippled do you mean mentally? Can you get into a hospital for an evaluation? Sounds like you need serious help right now and with help not alone. Love Phillipa.
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:59:19
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 3, 2007, at 22:15:44
Is this one of those books full of platitude and so called wisdoms. I have had over seven years of therapy and I have no sense of spiritualism.
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 23:06:51
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Phillipa on July 3, 2007, at 22:57:47
I mean that I just don't have any motivation and can't even be bothered to walk, take a bath, clean the place, cook, eat.
For example if I have an appointment the next day, I stay awake all night before because I know once I go into bed there is nothing that can get me out of it.
I have been to so many doctors and specialist and they all say it is anhedonia as a symptom of depression.I mean one of the reasons I don't take more heroine is because I can't be bothered to go out and score. It is madness, I just don't understand it.
Posted by Racer on July 3, 2007, at 23:49:22
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
>
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?I'd guess, if the morphine didn't have any mood brightening effect on you, that it's not the heroin -- but rather something it's being cut with. Or maybe it's the method of ingestion?
Whatever it is, though, I have to join others in advising against it. And not because you might become addicted, either. What is actually in the "heroin" you're taking? Unless you send it to a friendly lab to check, you really don't know. It could be cut with all sorts of things, and it probably has some other psychoactive substances in it. (A lot of dealers cut drugs with substances which will mimic the effects of the real drug -- thus "cocaine" often contains lidocaine, etc.)
I have no moral outrage over the idea of using street drugs. I do, however, advise against it for practical reasons. The primary reason being, of course, the one listed above: you don't know what you're really getting.
It sounds as though you've tried a fair number of things. I'm not familiar with the way the NHS works, so forgive me if this is all idiotic under that system. Do you see the same pdoc when you see one? Or are you shifted amongst anyone available? If you have been able to see one doctor, have you been able to get him/her on your team? Or is it just a "You're depressed? Here's an SSRI..." sort of thing? (When I was uninsured, one doctor at the county was terrible that way. I asked what sort of drug she was giving me, and she said, "It's an antidepressant, just take it." I asked what class, and she said, "It's a new one. It'll make you better." I was not impressed...)
I'm sorry if anything I've said leads you to feel worse. I would strongly urge you to get a complete physical exam, though -- if you're this depressed, and nothing has helped, it's time to look for a physical cause. Truly -- my rule of thumb is that I deserve the same level of care I insist on for my animals. That doesn't always happen, of course... But it does mean that physical causes must be ruled out before we say that it's all in my head...
Good luck.
Posted by Deputy 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 1:35:54
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Maria3667, posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:03:49
> This is inappropriate, unacceptable and completely uncalled for.
Saturn,
I realize you were supporting Babak, but civility rules require you to do this without leading anyone else to feel accused or put down. So, in the future if you have an objection to something in a post here, please use the "Notify the administrators" button located at the bottom of each post, instead of pointing it out on the board.
In this case, Racer had already issued a warning to the poster in question before you posted this, so notification was/is not needed.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 2:47:31
In reply to Re: Heroin as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Racer on July 3, 2007, at 23:49:22
Thanks for your input.
But it can not be the stuff that the heroine is cut with because I have bought over a long period of time from different dealers. I have had really bad H and really good H but the effect was always the same. My level of interest increases, my mood is lifted and I am physically more active.
I have seen at least a dozen Pdocs, NHS and private ones from Harley Street. I have tried all classes of antidepressants, even MIOA which I had to stop because it gave me high blood presure and I ended up in hospital. Every time I have ended up with the same one; Effexor.
Mode of ingestion for heroine and morphine we both the same, i.e oral (I sniff heroine as I don't like the smell of it when smoking it).
I have had MRI, full blood test, ECG and all sorts of other exminations.
Could it be that my brain just doesn't produce enough endorphine? I say this because I have a very low pain threshold. What ever it is it seems to be getting worse with age.
Posted by Sigismund on July 4, 2007, at 2:48:25
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
When you say it is getting out of hand, I wonder exactly what you mean.
The important thing with opiates is not to get a habit.
I was in your situation, and worse from the sound of what you say (although perhaps not so depressed) for many years.
I have reservations about how much of my history I want archived forever again here.
Nutritional medicine is the thing that helped me.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:13:01
In reply to Please follow site guidelines » saturn, posted by Deputy 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 1:35:54
Babak,
First of all I want to apologise to you. I didn't mean to blow you off, I just wanted to keep you from getting into (worse) harm. Secondly I apologise to the board for my strong wording.
Babak, now that you have explained your situation a little further I think you are taking the right road to recovery. Eventhough the reward might not be instanteneous, it's saver than trying opoids.
It's taken me 20 years before I had my depression conquered. It was a slow path with psychotherapy, grouptherapy and many meds. What greatly improved my situation was Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), a new therapy. In the end I got there and at present I don't need any AD.
You also mention having low energy and not being sexually active. This makes me wonder, have you had your testosterone levels checked? It's a well known fact low testosterone can lead to depression, fatigue & demotivation too. May be this is an option worth exploring...?
As you said there's a chance hard core drugs can cause permanent brain damage - something which could aggrevate your situation. Opiods might seem like a 'quick fix' but in the long run could make your life living hell (especially if you become addicted). This is not a risk you want to take, do you?
My best,
Maria
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:14:15
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Sigismund on July 4, 2007, at 2:48:25
Thanks for your input.
I wonder what kind of nutritional medicine worked for you.
By getting out of hand I mean that the frequency of my heroine use is on the increase and I am worried that the dosage is increasing as well.
One more point is that H doesn't actually cure my depression it just hightens my mood enough to get up and do a few necessary things.
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:13:01
Thank you Maria
That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
Hi Babak,
As a matter of fact, a friend of mine is starting TMS-therapy very soon. Although it is still in the testing phase, there's a company in my country offering it to people willing to participate in a clinical setting. She has an appointment next Friday.
It's not very far away from you. All you have to do is cross the North Sea.
> Thank you Maria
>
> That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
>
> I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
>
> I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?My guess would be that it is such a strong anxiolytic and euphoric drug. So much literature on its qualities of easing all worry, all pain, all anxiety; Sir William Osler (old McGill Victorian dr.) called 'God's own medicine', and there is so much literature on its power to send you to oblivion. You might read Quincey's book for a nice description of the heaven and hell of opium, for example.
Given all that, if you say you are crippled without it (and i guess you mean you are emotionally unhappy, not physically crippled), then I would guess you have DEPRESSION, and the heroin is lifting you out of it.
Again, from what i have read on the literature, it is pretty awful getting off (see "Trainspotting"), but I have also read reports that at a very tiny dose it is good for things like bronchitis and diarrhea and stomach ailments, without great risk of the horrors of withdrawal in addiction. Question is, how much would you need for depression;
The fact that it's illegal presents very special problems. I know that many people are now addicted to Vicodin and opiate copies-- if that is what works for you for depression, maybe you should speak to your doctor about it as an alternative to heroin.
Squiggles
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
Where is your country and do you have a contact number or email address I can use.
It will really be appreciated
Thanks again
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
That is very interesting, I use opium on and off for over ten years and then I wanted to come off it but I kept getting this stomuch pain which wouldn't go away even after a year without opium. Finally it turned out to be related to my depression and had nothing to do with opium withdrawal as I kept telling the doctors. An increase in my Effexor dosage stopped the pain but by then I was hooked on Subutex which was hell to kick. It took a month to come off subutex.
It was while I was on subutex that I developed this severe anhedonia. So I ma just wondering may be this anhedonia is related to Subutex & opiods which is a common withdrawal symptoms with heroine addicts but in my case it doesn't go away, not even a year after I came of Subutex and stayed clean of all opiods.
My fear is that opiods, subutex included has permenantly changed my brain chemistry. But is this possible? Is there any documented case or evidence of such permenant change?
It is this adhedonia which is cripling.Can anyone shed some light on this?
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 9:06:56
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
> Can anyone shed some light on this?There are a lot of hits i got under key
names "brain damage" "heroin" "opiates" on
the net, as i am sure you could too. For
example:http://www.rense.com/health3/dragon.htm
But I would not sound the alarm bell, as it
is smoking it that is most pernicious, and
at high dosages-- something which probably
excludes your case.Squiggles
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 11:49:41
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
Hi Babak,
From the website I gather it's in several places in my country (Holland). Below is the link:
http://www.qeeg.nl/?language_id=2
Good luck!
Maria
> Where is your country and do you have a contact number or email address I can use.
>
> It will really be appreciated
>
> Thanks again
Posted by Racer on July 4, 2007, at 14:17:27
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
http://www.nice.org.uk/article.aspx?o=ip346consultation
Apparently, TMS was actually developed in England, at Sheffield, and NICE seems to be studying it. That might suggest that you can find it a bit closer to home.
Yes, heroin can make people feel better. There are a lot of drawbacks to it, though -- and I will always point to additives and lack of quality control as the two biggest dangers involved. If you can find a pdoc who's willing to work with you to find a workable solution, it might just involve opiates. Several people here have had success using a combination including opiates.
Have you been able to try any sort of psychostimulant? Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine? That's made a big difference for me...
Good luck, whatever you end up doing. And I have heard very, very good things about TMS. My fancy pdoc says he's pretty hot on it, because his patients have done so well with it. He said he's sent them to clinical trials in this country, as well as sending them over the border to Canada when it was approved there.
Posted by revaaron on July 4, 2007, at 14:44:47
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
Babak-
Not sure if my previous post was deleted (does that happen?), but I posted a long rambling thing about my experience with this. Email me if you want very detailed first hand information about this. revXaaron at hotXmail dot com (take out the Xes).
Three points are the gist of it:
1. Many have people traveled this road after discovering what you have. Most have found that using recreational doses of opiates just isn't sustainable. Even if you manage to keep yourself supplied (which is harder for street drugs) and keep the tolerance and desire to continue pushing up your dose, there is a time after which the opiate will no longer make you happy, give you energy, and motivate you. It'll make you sedated, lethargic and possibly even dysphoric, which will likely make your worse depression than it is now. And then you go into WDs, which is a new world of incredible depression even in folks who never had it before opiates. It might take a few months or a couple years, but after a while opiates just stop working for the euphoric joy they give you if you take them day in day out without going through a full WD every once. Like I said, not sustainable.
2. Using any street drug as an AD is a horrible idea. If even after point 1 and general knowledge of what opiate addiction is like you want to try using an opiate as an antidepressant, look into bupe, methadone, or at least something else prescription or another known quanity, like poppy pods.
Bupe has the added plus in that it isn't a full agonist like morphine and heroin, it keeps tolerance in check.
3. If life is this crippling, there are some other things to try beyond the SSRIs that are worthwhile. Like others have mentioned, it sounds like more than just garden variety depression.
Posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 20:11:55
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » FredPotter, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:59:19
Hardly! No platitudes. It's a vile, disgusting book. Actually in reading Charlie Parker's life it's said that the heroin didn't interfere with his ability to play, but alcohol did. The alcohol killed him in the end, not the heroin
Posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 20:11:55
Methadone is being used by a girl who moved in with her family across the street supplied daily as she was an opiod addict and she's not even depressed anymore. I think she's also on seroquel? Please stop using the heroine. Here we have a show on TV called Intervention and the people using have horrible deterioration of their mind and bodies. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 23:41:21
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
I've tried methadone pills a few times. They seemed to lift depression and anxiety but only after about 3 hours, so perhaps I imagined it. You do hear of people who keep their heroin use under control and it keeps them free of pain and living a normal life, but I'm far too fond of euphoria to go anywhere near the stuff
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