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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on June 19, 2007, at 17:17:31
I am giving scopolamine a trial after reading this report.
I am trying 2, 1.5 mg transdermal disks. Its expensive, I'd never be able to continue. 2 disks is close to $20, but I thought it would be worth a shot just to see.
Linkadge
Posted by Bob on June 19, 2007, at 17:34:02
In reply to scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 19, 2007, at 17:17:31
I can give you an anecdotal account from a cruise I went on a few months ago.
First, understand that I am royally screwed up, and have tried all kinds of meds, in addition to an excruciating string of ECT treatments, so I'm no average patient. Anyway, I put the patch on about a day after being on the ship, and noticed that it eventually started causing insomnia, and general anticholinergic type effects, such as increased difficulty in urinating, and constipation. It didn't make me any happier, so to speak, but gave me a nervous energy.
The real kicker was coming off - I removed the patch and immediately experienced a nasty psychological rebound. It increased my depression and suicidality. Not fun and wouldn't do it again. In fact, I won't go on another cruise because of it.
Again, keep in mind I am a severe, treatment-resistant case, and have had unfortunate and paradoxical effects from many of the meds I've tried. It seems that I'm so far gone now, I can hardly tolerate anything any longer.
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on June 19, 2007, at 18:07:38
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Bob on June 19, 2007, at 17:34:02
I was given antivert for vertigo and it eliminated my anxiety once before when I was a teen before any meds so maybe the ear is somehow involved in depression/anxiety? Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on June 19, 2007, at 19:49:53
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Bob on June 19, 2007, at 17:34:02
Yeah, I understand that some people's depression does not respond well to cholinergic manipulation. Bipoliarity seems to be particulaly affected by cholinergic manipulation.
I respond well to the TCA's. I respond better to the more anticholinergic TCA's.
So I feel it is worth a shot.
So far I am not noticing any "happier", but I am noticing a drop in the intensity of emotion. It really seems to be getting me "out of my head".
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 19, 2007, at 19:51:04
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by Phillipa on June 19, 2007, at 18:07:38
I feel it could possably augment an antidepressant.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on June 19, 2007, at 20:27:31
In reply to scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 19, 2007, at 17:17:31
I liked the effect of Hyoscine Hydrobromide, which is more or less the same thing I think. The tablets are very cheap here, called Kwells. It's particularly nice combined with opiates.
Q
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2007, at 6:42:30
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on June 19, 2007, at 20:27:31
>The tablets are very cheap here, called Kwells. >It's particularly nice combined with opiates.
I am guessing this is a street product? When I do these trials, I am working under the hope that it is something I can take long term.
In addition, this med of which you speak, is it an antihistamine as well? There are a lot of anticholinergics with strong antihistamine (unwanted) effect.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on June 20, 2007, at 10:01:49
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2007, at 6:42:30
Kwells is a brand-name preparation of Hyoscine hydrobromide 300mcg buccal tablets, licensed for the treatment of travel sickness.
http://www.pharmacy2u.co.uk/details.asp?productid=KWT12
Hyoscine induces a 'twilight sleep' when combined with opiates - popular in 1950s midwifery. According to Wiki, Hyoscine is just another name for scopolamine, derived from the Latin 'Hyoscyamus niger' (Henbane), from which it is extracted.
Q
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2007, at 15:29:24
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on June 20, 2007, at 10:01:49
Interesting. I think that it is helping the depression. Especially on the domain of melancholy and guilt. Scopolamine doesn't appear to be available in tablet form here in canada.
The patches are not very economic, ie $10 Candian for a single patch.
I wonder what the cost would be to import, that is, if it is legal.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on June 20, 2007, at 17:43:15
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2007, at 15:29:24
They do ship to the US and Canada, but they have some restrictions. I suppose that would mostly be for controlled meds like codeine that are more tightly regulated in those countries (a shame because they also make wonderful antidepressants).
--------------------------------------------------
With respect to the supply of medicines to the USA, you understand that this supply is subject to the control of the US Customs and the FDA as they cross the US border which may result in delay or non-delivery of your order. Pharmacy2U Ltd cannot guarantee an exact delivery time of your order and in instances where your order is seized by US customs, Pharmacy2U Ltd will not be able to offer a refund for orders not delivered under these circumstances. You agree and understand that it is your responsibility to prepare for any delays that may occur in obtaining your order from Pharmacy2U Ltd, and further that in the event of US customs seizing your order, the cost of the order will be born by you in full.
http://www.pharmacy2u.co.uk/static/delivery.asp
--------------------------------------------------Hyoscine/scopolamine is FDA approved, so I don't see why there should be a problem if you say you're buying it for travel sickness. Sometimes customs puts a tax levy on items that are sold cheaper in other countries to make up the difference, but since there don't seem to be any hyoscine tablets sold in Canada I don't know what they'd have to compare it to.
One possible explanation about the absence of tablets is that the authorities are trying to curb abuse of this drug via date-rape and other criminal activities?
--------------------------------------------------
Other usesThe use of scopolamine as a truth drug was investigated by various intelligence agencies, including the CIA, during the 1950s. see: Project MKULTRA. It was found that, due to the hallucinogenic side effects of the drug, the truth was prone to distortion, and the project was subsequently abandoned.[citation needed]. Nazi doctor Josef Mengele experimented on scopolamine as an interrogation drug.
Scopolamine is used criminally as a date rape drug[citation needed] and as an aid to robbery, the most common act being the clandestine drugging of a victim's drink.[citation needed] Victims of this crime are often admitted to a hospital in police custody, under the assumption that the patient is experiencing a psychotic episode. A telltale sign is a fever accompanied by a lack of sweat.
In Colombia a plant admixture containing scopolamine called Burundanga has been used shamanically for decades. In recent years its criminal use (as outlined above) has become an epidemic. Approximately fifty percent of emergency room admissions for poisoning in Bogotá have been attributed to scopolamine. Also in Caracas, Venezuela, crime related to burundanga techniques has multiplied in the last years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoscine#Popular_culture
--------------------------------------------------Q
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2007, at 18:42:25
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on June 20, 2007, at 17:43:15
Yeah, unfortunate I guess that this will likely be another dead end. Seems like a lot of dead ends.
The patch doesn't provide a fast acting effect. (I am not looking for a fast acting effect) but, thats probably what makes the drug abusable in tablet form(?).
I think its pretty stupid. There are a lot of (questionable) drugs that have efficacy in depressive disorder, that most people could use without abuse. Yet some group of nutbars with little/no self control have to ruin it for other would can use such substances responsably.
Most antidepressant drugs produce some sort of downstream adaptation in the cholinergic axis. Most/all antidepressants have some effect on dampening cholinergic activity.
Too bad I guess.
Doesn't datura contain scopolamine ?
Linkadge
Posted by Bob on June 20, 2007, at 20:22:58
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2007, at 18:42:25
> Yeah, unfortunate I guess that this will likely be another dead end. Seems like a lot of dead ends.
>
> The patch doesn't provide a fast acting effect. (I am not looking for a fast acting effect) but, thats probably what makes the drug abusable in tablet form(?).
>
> I think its pretty stupid. There are a lot of (questionable) drugs that have efficacy in depressive disorder, that most people could use without abuse. Yet some group of nutbars with little/no self control have to ruin it for other would can use such substances responsably.
>
> Most antidepressant drugs produce some sort of downstream adaptation in the cholinergic axis. Most/all antidepressants have some effect on dampening cholinergic activity.
>
> Too bad I guess.
>
> Doesn't datura contain scopolamine ?
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
Linkadge:Are there any effective antidepressants which don't effect the cholinergic system? Do you know what they are? My autonomic nervous system is so f'd up now, that just about anything I take throws me out of whack.
Posted by linkadge on June 21, 2007, at 8:04:04
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Bob on June 20, 2007, at 20:22:58
I really don't know. The MAOI's will lower cholinergic tone by increasing the monoamines. The TCA's are direct anticholinergics as well as indirect anticholinergics by affecting the monoamines.
The SSRI's will pull the serotonergic/cholinergic axis in favor of serotonin, and some are direct anticholinergics (paroxetine). Bupropion has some anticholinergic effects. Remeron does too, as it can supress REM sleep, and REM behavioral disorder.
Even 5-ht1a partial agonists reduce cholinergic release.
Even tianeptine reduces cholinergic activity through some unidentified mechanism.
The mood stabilizers lithium and valproate seem to work the opposite. They enhance the responsiveness of the cholinergic system.
If you feel that meds are really messing up your system, try to get down to the lowest possable dose and eat as healthy as possable for a while.
Even margiannly inadequate nutrition can impair the speed of the ongoing adjustements made to such systems.Linkadge
Posted by Bob on June 21, 2007, at 13:19:29
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 21, 2007, at 8:04:04
Man, you are definitely knowledgeable on these meds. Thanks for your input. I'm now on ridiculously low doses of these meds, but it's not good. Even tiny dose changes affect me wildly. It's scary because I don't really see much evidence of other people being like this. I have a feeling it happens, but it's hard to see it. Ironically, I was nothing like this in the beginning. I would take large doses and soldier on.
Posted by linkadge on June 21, 2007, at 13:23:52
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Bob on June 21, 2007, at 13:19:29
Well, others might ask if you are bipolar. I tend to thing that there is extreme variation in individual sensitivity to medications.
Linkadge
Posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 11:25:19
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 21, 2007, at 13:23:52
> Well, others might ask if you are bipolar. I tend to thing that there is extreme variation in individual sensitivity to medications.
>
> LinkadgeMaybe I am bipolar to some extent. Problem is, any traditional mood stabilizers I take, such as Lithium or Depakote have done little outside of put me into a deep sedated state where I care about little if anything anymore. The addition of ADs never seems to counteract it. The newer drugs like lamictal and the like were disasterous.
Bob
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2007, at 14:24:01
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 11:25:19
Hey, we might have something in common. There is a possability I have some bipolar tendancies too, but mood stabilizers are a far cry from a move in the right direction.
I've been on lithium and depakote and its just no fun at all. My whole life suffers as a result.
Anyhow, they don't have all the asnwers yet so I am not going to take med failure personally.
Linkadge
Posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 14:48:09
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2007, at 14:24:01
You and I know they don't have all (or even many) of the answers yet, but fit still irks me when I get the feeling that others don't understand. It's even worse when I'm hearing anecdotes about acquaintances who are "doing very well" on their meds. Anyway, feelings about med failure aside, I am at a loss for how to maintain an acceptable status quo when I can hardly take anything any longer. It's not good.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 22, 2007, at 15:26:06
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » linkadge, posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 14:48:09
> You and I know they don't have all (or even many) of the answers yet, but fit still irks me when I get the feeling that others don't understand. It's even worse when I'm hearing anecdotes about acquaintances who are "doing very well" on their meds. Anyway, feelings about med failure aside, I am at a loss for how to maintain an acceptable status quo when I can hardly take anything any longer. It's not good.
>
>If it's any consolation, I respond very well to meds, but I also respond by having all the side effects, and all the withdrawal effects too.
-Ll
Posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 15:33:40
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » Bob, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 22, 2007, at 15:26:06
Nothing personal, but it isn't a consolation. I will say though that I used to be just like that for the first couple years of my disease, where I would respond well, but then get crushed by side effects, and even more crushed by withdrawal. Now, after many, many, many trials and treatments, I don't tolerate or respond well to the meds. Many I can no longer even touch, but I still get discontinuation syndromes and withdrawals. They're worse than before though, because I am in no position to tolerate it.
Do you ever feel guilty about not staying on a drug you are receiving therapeutic benefit from because of the unbearable side effects?
Posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 15:33:53
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » Bob, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 22, 2007, at 15:26:06
Nothing personal, but it isn't a consolation. I will say though that I used to be just like that for the first couple years of my disease, where I would respond well, but then get crushed by side effects, and even more crushed by withdrawal. Now, after many, many, many trials and treatments, I don't tolerate or respond well to the meds. Many I can no longer even touch, but I still get discontinuation syndromes and withdrawals. They're worse than before though, because I am in no position to tolerate it.
Do you ever feel guilty about not staying on a drug you are receiving therapeutic benefit from because of the unbearable side effects?
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2007, at 17:32:10
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 15:33:53
Meds don't do a whole lot for me anymore. I get a lot of side effects but no real effects.
Part of my problems is that, the more I know about certain medications, the more I feel that they're toxic. It is hard to respond to a drug that you constantly don't feel is safe to ingest.
I think they worked well for me in the beginning because I was oblivious to their hazzards.
Linkadge
Posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 17:55:44
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2007, at 17:32:10
For me, they're heinously toxic.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 22, 2007, at 18:56:22
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by Bob on June 22, 2007, at 15:33:53
> Nothing personal, but it isn't a consolation. I will say though that I used to be just like that for the first couple years of my disease, where I would respond well, but then get crushed by side effects, and even more crushed by withdrawal. Now, after many, many, many trials and treatments, I don't tolerate or respond well to the meds. Many I can no longer even touch, but I still get discontinuation syndromes and withdrawals. They're worse than before though, because I am in no position to tolerate it.
That sounds really difficult. I'm sorry if I made you feel bad.
>
> Do you ever feel guilty about not staying on a drug you are receiving therapeutic benefit from because of the unbearable side effects?
>
>
I feel like I'm letting my pdoc down, or that I'm a whiner or something, and I criticize myself for being a weakling- not strong enough to handle the side effects.
Posted by Bob on June 23, 2007, at 11:28:29
In reply to Re: scopolamine trial for depression » Bob, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 22, 2007, at 18:56:22
> >
> I feel like I'm letting my pdoc down, or that I'm a whiner or something, and I criticize myself for being a weakling- not strong enough to handle the side effects.Yes, me too. I alternate between that and feelings of indignance about toleration of these things being expected of me, or at least the perception of such.
This is the end of the thread.
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