![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 20:28:31
I've been on Parnate since the end of April. While it's been very effective in reducing my depression, it hasn't done very much for my social anxiety at all.
In fact, I would say that the SA is as bad as it ever was. So when I see my pdoc this Monday, I'm going to talk to him about augmenting the Parnate with another med. Now I know that I'd have to stop the Parnate before I could start Emsam, but is there any reason to hope that Emsam might be more effective in treating my my social anxiety?
B/C I wouldn't want to lapse into another depression during the time that I'm off Parnate and waiting for the Emsam to kick in?
Or rather, what med (other than another benzo) would be effective in treating SA? I don't think SSRI's have proven to be very effective for me?
Or am I just plum out of options?
Malcolm
Posted by Jesus is Savior on June 14, 2007, at 21:25:37
In reply to Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA?, posted by Malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 20:28:31
> I've been on Parnate since the end of April. While it's been very effective in reducing my depression, it hasn't done very much for my social anxiety at all.
>
> In fact, I would say that the SA is as bad as it ever was. So when I see my pdoc this Monday, I'm going to talk to him about augmenting the Parnate with another med. Now I know that I'd have to stop the Parnate before I could start Emsam, but is there any reason to hope that Emsam might be more effective in treating my my social anxiety?
>
> B/C I wouldn't want to lapse into another depression during the time that I'm off Parnate and waiting for the Emsam to kick in?
>
> Or rather, what med (other than another benzo) would be effective in treating SA? I don't think SSRI's have proven to be very effective for me?
>
> Or am I just plum out of options?
>
> MalcolmI've been on both, Parnate was far superior for SA than Emsam..(for me).
What dose of Parnate are you on? Maybe you are on too low of a dose??-MJ
Posted by Malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 21:42:46
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA? » Malcolm664, posted by Jesus is Savior on June 14, 2007, at 21:25:37
> > I've been on Parnate since the end of April. While it's been very effective in reducing my depression, it hasn't done very much for my social anxiety at all.
> >
> > In fact, I would say that the SA is as bad as it ever was. So when I see my pdoc this Monday, I'm going to talk to him about augmenting the Parnate with another med. Now I know that I'd have to stop the Parnate before I could start Emsam, but is there any reason to hope that Emsam might be more effective in treating my my social anxiety?
> >
> > B/C I wouldn't want to lapse into another depression during the time that I'm off Parnate and waiting for the Emsam to kick in?
> >
> > Or rather, what med (other than another benzo) would be effective in treating SA? I don't think SSRI's have proven to be very effective for me?
> >
> > Or am I just plum out of options?
> >
> > Malcolm
>
> I've been on both, Parnate was far superior for SA than Emsam..(for me).
> What dose of Parnate are you on? Maybe you are on too low of a dose??
>
> -MJI'm on 60 mgs, about or close to the max safe dose as my doc is willing to put me on. How much are you on?
Posted by steel on June 15, 2007, at 8:45:36
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA?, posted by Malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 21:42:46
Your on a extremly similiar track as me.First let me reassure you that little if none IN MY OPINION of a washout period will be needed from a parnate to deprenyl switch.
First they are both maois with like actions,second parnate is even documented to be arguably a actual REVERSABLE maoi.
Not emsam,but liquid deprenyl where i can control the drops to a potent 1 mg dose i have used togther before.
Both parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe.
Id recomend looking into staying on parnate,possably adjusting the dose if its working on depression,and adding a benzo or the like to it.
I recomend the same if you choose to go to emsam which as well will likly provide a more stimulating anti depressant effect than a social enhancment.
Perhaps looking at the old nardil makes it clear that gaba in some way,not just an increase,but some how is the reason for this.
So again if parnate is working on the depression,id add some form of benzo to it in moderate doses before going to deprenyl.If you desire to switch,there is a liquid version that is quite potent and can be used from 1 mg up in dose at a time.This can give u an idea how you will respond to emsam maybe?
I dont know the status of the liquid as i havent used it in a while,but i used it to cut back on parnate when i was not able to get the dose im on now.I also on parnate constantly augment it as i too find it very very hard to have a desire to get out and be social,id simply rather not,however when i add a drink or two,NOT RECOMENDED,i usualy do build a desire and a strong one to then do so.Can we gather from this once again the gaba issue,i dont know for sure?
If i werent a believe in the nardil fromualtion change issue being REAL id have used that,but upon my own trial and my readings i guess continuing to seek augmentation for parnate is the best option for me.
Good luck
Posted by Jesus is Savior on June 15, 2007, at 12:58:22
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA?, posted by Malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 21:42:46
.
> > What dose of Parnate are you on? Maybe you are on too low of a dose??
> >
> > -MJ
>
> I'm on 60 mgs, about or close to the max safe dose as my doc is willing to put me on. How much are you on?I'm not currently on it, when i was i was on 90 mgs. I went off because of the severe insomnia.
-MJ
Posted by OzLand on June 15, 2007, at 22:56:35
In reply to Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA?, posted by Malcolm664 on June 14, 2007, at 20:28:31
Is there some reason not to "augment" Parnate with therapy for social anxiety???
Posted by steel on June 15, 2007, at 23:31:56
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA? » Malcolm664, posted by OzLand on June 15, 2007, at 22:56:35
> Is there some reason not to "augment" Parnate with therapy for social anxiety???
Chemical wise it is lacking a increase of a known calming chemical,actualy i believe i seen it said parnate can cause a decrease in this calming chemical which is of course gaba.
I look at it in terms of a smoker in midst of quiting,there are chemical stages happening,real withdrawal so that is one factor you need to at least consider.
Then the value of therapy,i believe that falls on the individual,we all know how testy debates can get as to the value of talk therapy,personaly i believe its defintaly worth trying,as far as then finding it useful,well thats a indvidual aspect that varies a great deal.
But if a person does value the various forms of talk therapy,then i wouldent connect it to this specific information but rather as part of just about every medication treatment.
Posted by Malcolm664 on June 15, 2007, at 23:55:46
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA?, posted by steel on June 15, 2007, at 8:45:36
> Your on a extremly similiar track as me.First let me reassure you that little if none IN MY OPINION of a washout period will be needed from a parnate to deprenyl switch.
>
> First they are both maois with like actions,second parnate is even documented to be arguably a actual REVERSABLE maoi.
>
> Not emsam,but liquid deprenyl where i can control the drops to a potent 1 mg dose i have used togther before.
>
> Both parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe.
>
> Id recomend looking into staying on parnate,possably adjusting the dose if its working on depression,and adding a benzo or the like to it.
>
> I recomend the same if you choose to go to emsam which as well will likly provide a more stimulating anti depressant effect than a social enhancment.
>
> Perhaps looking at the old nardil makes it clear that gaba in some way,not just an increase,but some how is the reason for this.
>
>
> So again if parnate is working on the depression,id add some form of benzo to it in moderate doses before going to deprenyl.
>
> If you desire to switch,there is a liquid version that is quite potent and can be used from 1 mg up in dose at a time.This can give u an idea how you will respond to emsam maybe?
>
>
> I dont know the status of the liquid as i havent used it in a while,but i used it to cut back on parnate when i was not able to get the dose im on now.
>
> I also on parnate constantly augment it as i too find it very very hard to have a desire to get out and be social,id simply rather not,however when i add a drink or two,NOT RECOMENDED,i usualy do build a desire and a strong one to then do so.Can we gather from this once again the gaba issue,i dont know for sure?
>
>
> If i werent a believe in the nardil fromualtion change issue being REAL id have used that,but upon my own trial and my readings i guess continuing to seek augmentation for parnate is the best option for me.
>
>
> Good luckI did some research on the google about deprenyl and I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between the liquid and the Emsam patch. They're both the same as the drug selegine, right? Is the liquid version even available?
And what's a reversible MAOI? Can you clarify?
And also, I'm not sure I understand your statement above about "parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe". Seems to me that confidence is confidence and we're really splitting hairs if both drugs are confidence boosters then whatever self confidence you develop as a result will help improve your interactions with practically everyone.
Malcolm
Posted by steel on June 16, 2007, at 10:21:37
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA? » steel, posted by Malcolm664 on June 15, 2007, at 23:55:46
Sure without being in a spot where i can gather solid info,which i can promise later,a lighter reason for some of what you asked would be....
>
> I did some research on the google about deprenyl and I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between the liquid and the Emsam patch.Yess and before the patch even was a idea,there were the standerd tabs here in U.S.Liquid deprenyl is deprenyl yess in a base liquid of i believe citrus acid,not sure exact.HOWEVER even before the patch there was a big believe which you can find spoken of a LOT in google groups,where the liquid held high value as a cognitive aid,anti agining aid,and moderate anti depressant......opposed to the tab which most users posted was simply inferior to the liquid.
The google group SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS has many archived discussions on this,ones that also get into the technical reasons why this is,ones i dont know unless i paste them,either way it was the liquid deprenyl that was considered any worth.
The liquid is available easly and legaly just not approved here yet.I dont know if this same theory exsisted with the patch as it did with the tab vs liquid scenerio.
I have used both,and i agree with them,the capsules were light and not effective,where as i found the liquid to be VERY stimulating just to expensive for me to continue.
Do a search where you lock it in the google group only,they get pretty technical and usualy answer most loose ends.Sorry i cant at this moment be more technical.
They're both the same as the drug selegine, right? Is the liquid version even available?
Legaly available yess,FDA approved,NO not here but used extenivsly throughout the world.
>
> And what's a reversible MAOI? Can you clarify?
Pretty much what it says,meaning the maoi affect is not kinda LOCKED in but needs to be re created through daily dosing.Also means they are usualy more forgiving.
Molcimide as you probuably know is a known reversable one,parnate is not as clear,and there was a case study that said it was shown to be,i seen this mentioned a few times,which would mean the maoi activity would not last long if the drug was discontinued.
Most standerd data sheets however list it as irreversable.
Nardil is a strong IREVERSABLE one,it slowly builds up,and its effect takes time off the drug to slowly reverse itself.This makes for a better drug as far as missing a dose etc,but also makes for harsher restrictions and wasout periods.
>> And also, I'm not sure I understand your statement above about "parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe". Seems to me that confidence is confidence and we're really splitting hairs if both drugs are confidence boosters then whatever self confidence you develop as a result will help improve your interactions with practically everyone.
>
> MalcolmWell what i notice is a more stimulating mood elevating effect,where i might have with the help of depression be barly mobile,begin to self loath,loose confidence and worth,and other known classic examples of depression.
Parnate/deprenyl is like a kick in the A-- you might begin to come alive out of your hidden shell,and usualy become more productive and creative,even possably still having the depression but feeling enough inner strentgh to push it aside and be productive and desire to live.
Nardil would provide these aspects as well,however the gaba increasing effect might for some go a step further and actualy give one a strong desire to become social,somewhat similiar to alcholol.
I guess a way to look at it would be in illegal terms,similiar in a small way to the high a cocke user gets in contrast to the hig a coke user drinking as well would get.
Posted by Malcolm664 on June 17, 2007, at 0:27:02
In reply to Re: Emsam or Parnate: Which is better for SA?, posted by steel on June 16, 2007, at 10:21:37
Hey: I went to my local pharmacy and asked the pharmacist whether she could look up "Deprenyl" and print out some info on it; however, it's not listed as a medication that is currently available.
So can you tell me where you get it? I've got an appointment with my p-doc this Monday and I'm going to mention it to him. But it definitely doesn't help me if getting the actual drug is not possible legally.
Malcolm
> Sure without being in a spot where i can gather solid info,which i can promise later,a lighter reason for some of what you asked would be....
> >
> > I did some research on the google about deprenyl and I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between the liquid and the Emsam patch.
>
> Yess and before the patch even was a idea,there were the standerd tabs here in U.S.Liquid deprenyl is deprenyl yess in a base liquid of i believe citrus acid,not sure exact.HOWEVER even before the patch there was a big believe which you can find spoken of a LOT in google groups,where the liquid held high value as a cognitive aid,anti agining aid,and moderate anti depressant......opposed to the tab which most users posted was simply inferior to the liquid.
>
> The google group SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS has many archived discussions on this,ones that also get into the technical reasons why this is,ones i dont know unless i paste them,either way it was the liquid deprenyl that was considered any worth.
>
> The liquid is available easly and legaly just not approved here yet.I dont know if this same theory exsisted with the patch as it did with the tab vs liquid scenerio.
>
> I have used both,and i agree with them,the capsules were light and not effective,where as i found the liquid to be VERY stimulating just to expensive for me to continue.
>
> Do a search where you lock it in the google group only,they get pretty technical and usualy answer most loose ends.Sorry i cant at this moment be more technical.
>
>
>
> They're both the same as the drug selegine, right? Is the liquid version even available?
>
> Legaly available yess,FDA approved,NO not here but used extenivsly throughout the world.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > And what's a reversible MAOI? Can you clarify?
>
> Pretty much what it says,meaning the maoi affect is not kinda LOCKED in but needs to be re created through daily dosing.Also means they are usualy more forgiving.
>
> Molcimide as you probuably know is a known reversable one,parnate is not as clear,and there was a case study that said it was shown to be,i seen this mentioned a few times,which would mean the maoi activity would not last long if the drug was discontinued.
>
> Most standerd data sheets however list it as irreversable.
>
> Nardil is a strong IREVERSABLE one,it slowly builds up,and its effect takes time off the drug to slowly reverse itself.This makes for a better drug as far as missing a dose etc,but also makes for harsher restrictions and wasout periods.
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> > And also, I'm not sure I understand your statement above about "parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe". Seems to me that confidence is confidence and we're really splitting hairs if both drugs are confidence boosters then whatever self confidence you develop as a result will help improve your interactions with practically everyone.
> >
> > Malcolm
>
> Well what i notice is a more stimulating mood elevating effect,where i might have with the help of depression be barly mobile,begin to self loath,loose confidence and worth,and other known classic examples of depression.
>
> Parnate/deprenyl is like a kick in the A-- you might begin to come alive out of your hidden shell,and usualy become more productive and creative,even possably still having the depression but feeling enough inner strentgh to push it aside and be productive and desire to live.
>
>
> Nardil would provide these aspects as well,however the gaba increasing effect might for some go a step further and actualy give one a strong desire to become social,somewhat similiar to alcholol.
>
>
> I guess a way to look at it would be in illegal terms,similiar in a small way to the high a cocke user gets in contrast to the hig a coke user drinking as well would get.
Posted by steel on June 17, 2007, at 7:51:25
In reply to Re: Is liquid Deprenyl even available?, posted by Malcolm664 on June 17, 2007, at 0:27:02
> Hey: I went to my local pharmacy and asked the pharmacist whether she could look up "Deprenyl" and print out some info on it; however, it's not listed as a medication that is currently available.
>
> So can you tell me where you get it? I've got an appointment with my p-doc this Monday and I'm going to mention it to him. But it definitely doesn't help me if getting the actual drug is not possible legally.
>
> Malcolm
>
> > Sure without being in a spot where i can gather solid info,which i can promise later,a lighter reason for some of what you asked would be....
> > >
> > > I did some research on the google about deprenyl and I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between the liquid and the Emsam patch.
> >
> > Yess and before the patch even was a idea,there were the standerd tabs here in U.S.Liquid deprenyl is deprenyl yess in a base liquid of i believe citrus acid,not sure exact.HOWEVER even before the patch there was a big believe which you can find spoken of a LOT in google groups,where the liquid held high value as a cognitive aid,anti agining aid,and moderate anti depressant......opposed to the tab which most users posted was simply inferior to the liquid.
> >
> > The google group SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS has many archived discussions on this,ones that also get into the technical reasons why this is,ones i dont know unless i paste them,either way it was the liquid deprenyl that was considered any worth.
> >
> > The liquid is available easly and legaly just not approved here yet.I dont know if this same theory exsisted with the patch as it did with the tab vs liquid scenerio.
> >
> > I have used both,and i agree with them,the capsules were light and not effective,where as i found the liquid to be VERY stimulating just to expensive for me to continue.
> >
> > Do a search where you lock it in the google group only,they get pretty technical and usualy answer most loose ends.Sorry i cant at this moment be more technical.
> >
> >
> >
> > They're both the same as the drug selegine, right? Is the liquid version even available?
> >
> > Legaly available yess,FDA approved,NO not here but used extenivsly throughout the world.
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > And what's a reversible MAOI? Can you clarify?
> >
> > Pretty much what it says,meaning the maoi affect is not kinda LOCKED in but needs to be re created through daily dosing.Also means they are usualy more forgiving.
> >
> > Molcimide as you probuably know is a known reversable one,parnate is not as clear,and there was a case study that said it was shown to be,i seen this mentioned a few times,which would mean the maoi activity would not last long if the drug was discontinued.
> >
> > Most standerd data sheets however list it as irreversable.
> >
> > Nardil is a strong IREVERSABLE one,it slowly builds up,and its effect takes time off the drug to slowly reverse itself.This makes for a better drug as far as missing a dose etc,but also makes for harsher restrictions and wasout periods.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > And also, I'm not sure I understand your statement above about "parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe". Seems to me that confidence is confidence and we're really splitting hairs if both drugs are confidence boosters then whatever self confidence you develop as a result will help improve your interactions with practically everyone.
> > >
> > > Malcolm
> >
> > Well what i notice is a more stimulating mood elevating effect,where i might have with the help of depression be barly mobile,begin to self loath,loose confidence and worth,and other known classic examples of depression.
> >
> > Parnate/deprenyl is like a kick in the A-- you might begin to come alive out of your hidden shell,and usualy become more productive and creative,even possably still having the depression but feeling enough inner strentgh to push it aside and be productive and desire to live.
> >
> >
> > Nardil would provide these aspects as well,however the gaba increasing effect might for some go a step further and actualy give one a strong desire to become social,somewhat similiar to alcholol.
> >
> >
> > I guess a way to look at it would be in illegal terms,similiar in a small way to the high a cocke user gets in contrast to the hig a coke user drinking as well would get.
>
>Cant tell you where to get it,but if you email me i can provide you with some info on it and some good sources to learn the differances of it via the fda approved emsam.
Posted by malcolm664 on June 17, 2007, at 10:35:52
In reply to Re: Is liquid Deprenyl even available?, posted by steel on June 17, 2007, at 7:51:25
> > Hey: I went to my local pharmacy and asked the pharmacist whether she could look up "Deprenyl" and print out some info on it; however, it's not listed as a medication that is currently available.
> >
> > So can you tell me where you get it? I've got an appointment with my p-doc this Monday and I'm going to mention it to him. But it definitely doesn't help me if getting the actual drug is not possible legally.
> >
> > Malcolm
> >
> > > Sure without being in a spot where i can gather solid info,which i can promise later,a lighter reason for some of what you asked would be....
> > > >
> > > > I did some research on the google about deprenyl and I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between the liquid and the Emsam patch.
> > >
> > > Yess and before the patch even was a idea,there were the standerd tabs here in U.S.Liquid deprenyl is deprenyl yess in a base liquid of i believe citrus acid,not sure exact.HOWEVER even before the patch there was a big believe which you can find spoken of a LOT in google groups,where the liquid held high value as a cognitive aid,anti agining aid,and moderate anti depressant......opposed to the tab which most users posted was simply inferior to the liquid.
> > >
> > > The google group SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS has many archived discussions on this,ones that also get into the technical reasons why this is,ones i dont know unless i paste them,either way it was the liquid deprenyl that was considered any worth.
> > >
> > > The liquid is available easly and legaly just not approved here yet.I dont know if this same theory exsisted with the patch as it did with the tab vs liquid scenerio.
> > >
> > > I have used both,and i agree with them,the capsules were light and not effective,where as i found the liquid to be VERY stimulating just to expensive for me to continue.
> > >
> > > Do a search where you lock it in the google group only,they get pretty technical and usualy answer most loose ends.Sorry i cant at this moment be more technical.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They're both the same as the drug selegine, right? Is the liquid version even available?
> > >
> > > Legaly available yess,FDA approved,NO not here but used extenivsly throughout the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > And what's a reversible MAOI? Can you clarify?
> > >
> > > Pretty much what it says,meaning the maoi affect is not kinda LOCKED in but needs to be re created through daily dosing.Also means they are usualy more forgiving.
> > >
> > > Molcimide as you probuably know is a known reversable one,parnate is not as clear,and there was a case study that said it was shown to be,i seen this mentioned a few times,which would mean the maoi activity would not last long if the drug was discontinued.
> > >
> > > Most standerd data sheets however list it as irreversable.
> > >
> > > Nardil is a strong IREVERSABLE one,it slowly builds up,and its effect takes time off the drug to slowly reverse itself.This makes for a better drug as far as missing a dose etc,but also makes for harsher restrictions and wasout periods.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > And also, I'm not sure I understand your statement above about "parnate and deprenyl provide a more confidence building effect over a DESIRE to interact i believe". Seems to me that confidence is confidence and we're really splitting hairs if both drugs are confidence boosters then whatever self confidence you develop as a result will help improve your interactions with practically everyone.
> > > >
> > > > Malcolm
> > >
> > > Well what i notice is a more stimulating mood elevating effect,where i might have with the help of depression be barly mobile,begin to self loath,loose confidence and worth,and other known classic examples of depression.
> > >
> > > Parnate/deprenyl is like a kick in the A-- you might begin to come alive out of your hidden shell,and usualy become more productive and creative,even possably still having the depression but feeling enough inner strentgh to push it aside and be productive and desire to live.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nardil would provide these aspects as well,however the gaba increasing effect might for some go a step further and actualy give one a strong desire to become social,somewhat similiar to alcholol.
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess a way to look at it would be in illegal terms,similiar in a small way to the high a cocke user gets in contrast to the hig a coke user drinking as well would get.
> >
> >
>
> Cant tell you where to get it,but if you email me i can provide you with some info on it and some good sources to learn the differances of it via the fda approved emsam.I don't have your e-mail address. Mine is msaldanha@verizon.net.
Thanks Steel.
Posted by Sigismund on June 17, 2007, at 15:08:12
In reply to Re: Is liquid Deprenyl even available?, posted by Malcolm664 on June 17, 2007, at 0:27:02
Malcolm, your pharmacist won't be able to help you with it (mine can't help me at all). You have to order it from sites we can't mention. It's good, though it disturbs my sleep, so I don't take it currently.
Posted by steel on June 18, 2007, at 6:09:11
In reply to Re: Is liquid Deprenyl even available? » steel, posted by malcolm664 on June 17, 2007, at 10:35:52
This is the end of the thread.
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