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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by FredPotter on March 11, 2007, at 22:58:13
According to them it's got nothing to do with the brain:
Posted by yxibow on March 12, 2007, at 1:22:14
In reply to Depression and the Human Givens Institute, posted by FredPotter on March 11, 2007, at 22:58:13
> According to them it's got nothing to do with the brain:
>
> http://www.hgi.org.uk/archive/Depression.htm[personal view]
I question their views on schizophrenia, they seem to go completely against logic and what we know from imaging and the past 50 years of peer reviewed work.
The place seems to be run by the "Mindfields College"
They're happy to take your VISA or Mastercard
http://www.hgonline.co.uk/FMPro?-db=HG_Orders.fp5&-format=hgonline/shop/home.htm&CoCode=HG&-new
I can't seem to find any link to Scientology through deep IP searching -- they are crafty. Mindfields is supposedly "accredited"
Then we jump to a UK-Australia connectionhttp://www.keycapability.co.uk/
"Money, while extremely important, is not strongly linked to happiness as it does not enrich our moral or intellectual sense.""Sessions are based on a £50 (Aus$100) per hour format, with student and other concessions based on £25 per hour.
Travel involved in home visits in the Cambridge area is costed at 50p mile."[I guess money is important.]
Blog discussions:http://experimentalchimp.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/more-on-human-givens/
http://experimentalchimp.wordpress.com/2007/01/09/looking-at-the-human-givens/#comment-494[More money]
http://www.mindfields.org.uk/?pid=61
If you want to be part of their philosophy for about 2500 quid you can be one...
[Hmm... more] http://www.professionalcounselling.co.uk/natural_treatment_depression.html
"Taking antidepressants prescribed by your GP may increase your sense of helplessness, rather than increase your sense of control/volition."[personal aside]
WTF? Taking Cymbalta has prevented me somewhat from offing myself.
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Treating_Depression/dep_med.htm
"Other, alternative treatments such as cognitive behavior therapy, have been shown to have 70% better success rate at beating depression for good. In other words, they have been shown to prevent relapse in 70% more cases than drugs.But this is obvious! Unless, of course, you consider the cause of depression to be a chemical imbalance. Which we know it is not, in the majority of cases. (See earlier in the Depression Learning Path.)"
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/program.html
[personal comment]
Ah here we go, learn depression for $97 with your credit card.
[well they seem to have pushed their way into a peer reviewed journal]Doing what needs to be done: A respectful response to Burnard and Grant
Journal of Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing 9 (2), 232–236.
[personal aside]I don't know, all I know is there are a lot of interconnecting websites if you dig further through google, all promoting curious at times and completely batty at others [personal opinion] "alternative views", including the perennial argument, which they do not believe in the brain model of depression when of course the scientific community has pet and spect scans galore not to mention genetic studies of depression in families (I can look at my own...)
So, what do I say, well if you want to believe this, go ahead... I think there's someone making plenty of money though, the two "heads" of the institute.
-- tidingsJay
Posted by FredPotter on March 12, 2007, at 2:20:50
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » FredPotter, posted by yxibow on March 12, 2007, at 1:22:14
Thanks Jay for all the info. I was being sarcastic in my post. I went to one of their therapists while in the UK. It was a combination of guided imagery, quasi-CBT, "hypnosis" and NLP (yes NLP). It was pretty useless, though only one session isn't much
Fred
Posted by Ines on March 12, 2007, at 5:20:54
In reply to Depression and the Human Givens Institute, posted by FredPotter on March 11, 2007, at 22:58:13
> According to them it's got nothing to do with the brain:
>
> http://www.hgi.org.uk/archive/Depression.htmClearly they have a pretty limited one-sided view, but it's interesting about the sleep/ dream thing. I find I start dreaming pretty much as soon as I fall asleep, even if I just doze off on a train. The more depressed I get the worse it is, and it gets to a point when I sleep more and more but always wake up exhausted; I also almost always remember my dreams. I read a research article a while ago that mentioned that one of the things that is common across all depression subtypes is that the majority of sufferers (I seem to remember a v high figure like 80% but could be wrong there) go into REM (dreaming) sleep much faster than non-depressed subjects.
Ines
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 12, 2007, at 9:19:31
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute, posted by Ines on March 12, 2007, at 5:20:54
Hey Ines,
Yes this happens to me too! With the dream thing I mean. Interesting....
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 12, 2007, at 9:25:53
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » FredPotter, posted by yxibow on March 12, 2007, at 1:22:14
It looks alright to me - and makes alot of sense actually, well I only read the depression one. I think that alot of cases in depression are similar to the ones they portray. And aren't most places quick to take your cash? I mean, I bet you talked about charges with your T (if you didn't have insurance or whatever).
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2007, at 11:20:58
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute, posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 12, 2007, at 9:25:53
So the longer you dream the more depressed and less motivated you are according to the article? love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on March 12, 2007, at 12:22:04
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » yxibow, posted by FredPotter on March 12, 2007, at 2:20:50
> Thanks Jay for all the info. I was being sarcastic in my post. I went to one of their therapists while in the UK. It was a combination of guided imagery, quasi-CBT, "hypnosis" and NLP (yes NLP). It was pretty useless, though only one session isn't much
> FredNot sure what NLP is... there is use though in conventional psychology of guided imagery and relaxation therapy -- I have used those before at times in the past when I wasn't too quick to go to the Xanax.
But I had tapes made specifically by my psychiatrist for this purpose. It really is just the sound of a known voice who is sympathetic to your cause that works. Hypnosis of sorts -- not hocus pocus but again, the kind that uses guided imagery actually helps a little to reminisce on a fond place for me like Alaska, I don't know. :) I often fell asleep -- not in the office, on my couch.
I wasn't bashing all the concepts, but there seemed to be an awful lot of purely alternative things and some awful convincing suggestions not to take medications (especially for some that might really need or benefit.)
But like I say, when you have "institutes" and multiple website links it just looks like a circular game, that's all.
Posted by madeline on March 12, 2007, at 15:30:57
In reply to Depression and the Human Givens Institute, posted by FredPotter on March 11, 2007, at 22:58:13
Some of that on depression does make sense to me.
Negative thinking, for me at least, really did seem to rule the day and it was incredibly hard to break out of it. It is almost impossible to connect with anything good.
The prozac helped, so did therapy and when I felt up to making a choice, I started recognizing and chosing positive things in my life.
But depression is not so simple as just "well, i'm a big fat negative thinker and from here on out I'm going to be Miss positive".
It takes a lot of work and help to get to the place where you can chose.
Also, I dream A LOT when I am depressed.
Maddie
Posted by Ines on March 12, 2007, at 18:37:04
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » Ines, posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 12, 2007, at 9:19:31
Hi Meri,
I found a couple of interesting articles on this on the web:
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Understanding_Depression/understanding.htm
http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20020118/dreams-may-hold-key-to-beating-depression
I found it makes for fascinating reading, but slightly dishartening. It's not like you can control your REM sleep...
Ines
Posted by Ines on March 12, 2007, at 18:46:51
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute, posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2007, at 11:20:58
Yes, basically we wake up tired from so much brain activity during sleep and not enough 'no dream' sleep- talk about not being able to escape your thoughts!
Ineshttp://healthjournal.upmc.com/0205/DepSleep.htm
Posted by yxibow on March 13, 2007, at 2:55:06
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Ines on March 12, 2007, at 18:37:04
> Hi Meri,
>
> I found a couple of interesting articles on this on the web:
>
> http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Understanding_Depression/understanding.htm
>
> http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20020118/dreams-may-hold-key-to-beating-depression
>
> I found it makes for fascinating reading, but slightly dishartening. It's not like you can control your REM sleep...
I'm not sure about REM sleep but I had a significant who swore he could control lucid dreaming.I've attempted to do so at times when I'm half awake and can almost continue an interesting yarn but I can't really do it. I've noticed sometimes when I am at the sleep to wake cycle I have to yell out something to "complete" a dream. I wonder if it is actually audible, or more likely, as is often observed by others, it is an incomprehensible mumble.
-- tidings
Posted by FredPotter on March 13, 2007, at 3:32:05
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » Ines, posted by yxibow on March 13, 2007, at 2:55:06
My 17 yr old son does lucid dreaming. He has a book that describes how to induce it. He does it for fun, but apparently it can have therapeutic value. Fred
Posted by FredPotter on March 13, 2007, at 3:41:48
In reply to Re: Depression and the Human Givens Institute » Ines, posted by yxibow on March 13, 2007, at 2:55:06
I think there's some truth in the Human Givens idea that the break-up of the family has caused the escalation in depression since the war. However I have two criticisms. One is that they say that in REM sleep the eyes are searching out danger. In waking life the eyes do not dart about so frantically when searching out danger, but I have no doubt that REM corresponds with dreaming.
There is also a bald statement that "It is impossible to feel anxious when your body is relaxed". Ask anyone who has experienced sleep paralysis and panicked. The body is paralysed and you can't get more relaxed than that. Also brain scientists have discovered a fast track from the amygdala when something frightening happens, so the feeling gets to consciousness before the thought (thus undermining one of the dogmata of CBT) Fred
This is the end of the thread.
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