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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Declan on February 16, 2007, at 1:29:19
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Declan, posted by laima on February 15, 2007, at 22:04:44
I'm impressed that I know something about computer talk that you did not.
I feel very intelligent.
Posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 2:37:26
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by laima on February 15, 2007, at 16:21:35
>
> Thought I'd add, when I had my sleep studies I was spending long hours asleep- like 9 or even 10- but was still tired all day long, even after starting stimulants. The sleep doctor and the psychiatrist I see now were both certain that this was due to the fact that my studies indicated I spent very, very little time in stage 4, despite all of the hours asleep. The sleep doctor really surprised me by recommending more stimulants by day while cutting down or out on clonazapam. Even recently, my doctor was wanting me to have another sleep study before prescribing any sleep medication, to see where I was at. Now he's especially curious, because I'm not using any sleep meds. Also, I'm using far fewer stimulants than before, and feeling much MUCH more awake by day. But I'd rather not go through the ordeal again.
>
> Xyrem sounds intriguing because unlike most other sleep meds, it sounds like it either increases or doesn't affect the deep stages. To bad it doesn't seem to be commonly prescribed.
That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
Posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 2:38:58
In reply to Sleep Ridiculous, posted by Phillipa on February 15, 2007, at 12:45:31
> For many many years I've been on combos of meds for sleep doesn't matter how many or how strong but in 4-5hours always wake-up and even a redose of med and can't go back to sleep. When in the cycle is the restorative sleep. I do fall asleep right away. Been on xanax, valium, lunesta, ambien,chloral hydrate, klonopin, and combos of the above. Thanks me again Phillipa ps I think the lack of long sleep is keeping the anxiety alive and has lead to the depression.
I know your medicaire doesn't cover a sleep doctor but without a sleep study, which I am considering too, you may be at least partially aiming in the right direction -- you don't know what is happening during sleep, e.g. sleep apnea, and other such things that rob you of true sleep.
Posted by laima on February 16, 2007, at 8:06:49
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » laima, posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 2:37:26
No wonder it's never been suggested.All I know about xyrem I've read on babble- I didn't actually even think any form of gbh is legal in the US. I know there was a gbh study-for depression- but that was just a preliminary study.
>
> That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
Posted by laima on February 16, 2007, at 8:08:44
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 2:38:58
By the way, what was xyrem officially brought back for?
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 9:45:14
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » yxibow, posted by laima on February 16, 2007, at 8:08:44
GHB isn't particularly dangerous, no more so than alcohol for instance. In fact it's considerably safer unless you're a complete idiot and combine it with huge doses other narcotics and sedatives and overdose, but that's much the way with other drugs and it doesn't seem fair to me to single out GHB for that.
Xyrem is licensed as a hypnotic for treating narcolepsy refractory to more acceptable treatments.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 9:54:44
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » laima, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 9:45:14
Xyrem is also extortionately expensive for what it is. A guy contacted me through RemedyFind a few years ago because he'd read my rating of Xyrem and his wife hardly slept at all without it because of Lyme's Disease. He couldn't afford the ~$500 price tag for her which I thought was appalling given that I could buy it for less than $1 a gram direct from a pharmaceutical manufacturer in Ireland. Unfortunately it was too risky for him to import it so she just had to suffer.
Q
Posted by randermin on February 16, 2007, at 10:13:09
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » laima, posted by Phillipa on February 15, 2007, at 21:41:45
I thought some analouges of ghb where being legaly sold for sleep, but thats probably over by now.
Posted by TheMeanReds on February 16, 2007, at 12:12:58
In reply to Sleep Ridiculous, posted by Phillipa on February 15, 2007, at 12:45:31
You've probably heard this about a billion times, but staying awake for 18 hours and then going to bed works for some people. I take 100mg of seroquel, and try to think of things that wont trigger stress. Good Luck
Posted by laima on February 16, 2007, at 14:17:33
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by TheMeanReds on February 16, 2007, at 12:12:58
Well interesting, that is maybe akin to something the sleep doctor suggested to me when I was sleeping those long hours and still unrested. She was in favor of me setting up regular sleep and wake times, and sticking to them, even if I was tired.
> You've probably heard this about a billion times, but staying awake for 18 hours and then going to bed works for some people. I take 100mg of seroquel, and try to think of things that wont trigger stress. Good Luck
Posted by TheMeanReds on February 16, 2007, at 15:01:08
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by TheMeanReds on February 16, 2007, at 12:12:58
Insomnia is the worst. 5 years ago while on Paxil when my insomia was nothing big, I took melatonin. Then my good friend (psyh major) said taking it for more than two weeks is somehow bad for 'sleep chemistry'. I'd wake in the middle of sleep, going to sleep wasnt an issue. Then I tried getting up and having a piece of toast and milk. The method worked for awhile.
Benedryl helped me fall asleep, but tolerence builds. Bong hits definately was not the answer, even though in high school it worked like a charm.
When on Remeron, I was OUT, but all I wanted to do was eat while I was awake. So that was short lived.
When on Seroquel, I still had pretty much a virgin brain. It nocked me out. I only had to take a tiny pebble of a pill.
After a while I got a script for Klonopin. I agree it messes with sleep cycles, not in a good way though.
Then I became a bartender on Lexapro...things got really bad. Going to bed at 5am, and waking at noon. A regular at the bar was an herbal pharmasist. He told me to take 4 caps of hops before bed, and alphalfa three times daily. It worked.
One thing I would like to point out is that I absolutely cannot even have a glass of wine in the evening, it will mess up my sleep. No coffee after noon time. And even though Its hard, no cigarettes after 3 pm. Even though I miss my merlot, its better than missing my sleep.
To all insomniacs, I hope any of these suggestions help. Even the ones that didnt personally work for me. Good Luck.
Posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 15:54:56
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on February 15, 2007, at 13:54:28
Q,
What dose of mirtazapine did you try?
K
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:03:47
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 15:54:56
K,
I tried a variety of doses from 7.5mg to 30mg but didn't notice all that much difference between them. I used the 30mg dose as an antidepressant and the lower doses as a hypnotic.
Q
Posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 16:35:27
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » kaleidoscope, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:03:47
Hi Q
I was just curious because restlessness has been reported as a side effect of mirtazepine at high doses, but seems rare at very low doses. Since low doses can be effective for insomnia, I was wondering whether a low dose would work best for your insomnia.
K
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:39:45
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 16:35:27
I could re-try it again for you if you would like me to experiment, but it went off some time ago and I'm no longer convinced it's safe. I keep it more as a souvenir.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 19:18:18
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » kaleidoscope, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:39:45
Q what about the safety of remeron? Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 20:16:09
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 19:18:18
It's a relatively safe med Phillipa.
Q
Posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 22:09:20
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 19:18:18
Have you checked those out at the heath food store phillipa, i suggest those.
I know, may a glass of wine or rum or somehting well, never mind i may get introuble for saying that....ROFL to go with your night meds. That would not be good. I have heard alcohol disturbs sleep cycles BAD.
Anyways really check them out.
ALso GABA the nuerotransmitter or what ever you can buy also at the heath food store.
Try it!
Matt
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 22:13:17
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root?, posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 22:09:20
Thank-you Matt. I will look into them. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 23:05:52
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root?, posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 22:09:20
> Have you checked those out at the heath food store phillipa, i suggest those.
Kava is fine for relaxation, but don't combine it with alcohol. It does have a known issue with liver problems and should be taken on an occasional basis until more study has been done on it.
Nonetheless, I have used it -- if you do not habituate to it, Kava is about on par of a small dose of Xanax. I would suggest the GAIA liqui-caps or similar which actually list the active level of kavalactones -- dried Kava with no description is unlikely to produce the pronounced effect of an herbal extract that actually lists the potency of kavalactones.
Valerian is a weaker agent -- for the average person with some mild sleep problems it may have some effect. I have found, and this is only my own digestive system, that I am nauseated the day after using it. Again, this is an agent that should be checked for potency.> I know, may a glass of wine or rum or somehting well, never mind i may get introuble for saying that....ROFL to go with your night meds. That would not be good. I have heard alcohol disturbs sleep cycles BAD.
>
> Anyways really check them out.
>
> ALso GABA the nuerotransmitter or what ever you can buy also at the heath food store.
GABA will do nearly nothing for the body but wonders for the wallet as it cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Only Neurontin or Lyrica has the power to cross the blood-brain barrier because of molecular modulation that allows analogues of GABA to cross over.
Posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 23:18:49
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root? » rjlockhart, posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 23:05:52
thanks yxibow.
I dont have much knowlage on this but i do know that taking Xanax and Kava Kava together will, well i have heard it has but people into a coma! im not kidding so, phillipa, you may want to just check out valerian root.
Kava Kava i have taken it, is very relaxing. I dont know why they have it on the market because it can be abused like a benzodiazpine.
You can also order it online. If you cant find it.
GABA i have tried, it just very mellowly mellows you out some what, not good for sleep.
Valerian root you may want to try. But the only thing about it is it only lasts 30min! can you belive that! well for me it does, it wears of i can feel it.
So just go to heathfood store and check out Kava Kava, and Valerian Root. Actually you can get Valerien root in the grocery store, pharmacy section.....
The reason i said maybe some Rum..... i would get introuble for saying to try that because alcohol with benzodiazpines is anaother story... but i thought it may "force" you to get to sleep instead of the baseball bat, and no im not trying to be funny at all, even that was funny, just dont do to yourself ROFL.
yBOW thanks, rerember where cousins.... well you said we where a while back. Rerember me rj?
Matt
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:19:36
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » laima, posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 2:37:26
> >
>
> That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
Not true,xyrem was recently given the go ahead for OFF LABEL use,so its up to the docters discression to use it for something as common as clinical insomnia which it is being used for,even though as u stated its FDA approval is initialy for narcolepsy.
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:37:00
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root?, posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 23:18:49
Kava Kava is not ideal for sleep,it has at the least 15 known active constitutes (lactones) and it has many different varying effects,this is why it is for some very theprutic because of the WIDE window range of effects.
However so many brands were removed due to the liver scare,which btw was if looked up determined unreliable and could not be officialy verfied,still the short time of the RED LABEL demand was enogh to decrease the manf of it to only a handful of brands if that.
I remember GNC had caps that were so potent and worked so well i was doing really good,now gone you wont find it except in some weak tead but the herb no longer sits on its shelf.
You can order it in bulk offline,and there are claims to how potent the kava is,but i actualy prefered getting two or three top brans,i.e GNC,SOLARAY,SOLGAR,and mixing,always worked.
Those brands are all gone now.I believe natrol,vitamin shoppe and a few others are left,and after numerous trials it just doesent seem like the kava i once knew.In germany kava was even a script drug,thats where the whole liver thing started,actual cases of liver toxcity OFFICIAL to kava are nill to none reported here in U.S,but fda got there goal and scared the media hyped public into loosing yet antoher good over the counter aid.
Valerian does affect gaba,ITS IS NOT KAVA,FAR FROM IT,personaly i wouldent touch it with a ten foot pole.But some people do use and like it for sleep.
The previous poster is right,gaba cant cross into the brain with out a carrier,some known over the counter gaba substances would be,L theanine - said to raise both gaba.dopamine levels.
Picamilion - Gaba attached to niacin to cross over.
Phenibutt - Said to be closes thing totaly legal to ghb,affects gaba and pea,dont know much about how it works however,but do know its either loved or hated.
Taurine - doesent directly effect gaba,but is similiar to anti convuslants like lamicatal and so on,and does OVER ALL effect gaba production.
Med wise,the strongest gaba drug is actualy GABATRIL,and is actualy not used much at all,which shows pure gaba is not the entire issue.Nuerontion - i use and like this drug,again doesent effec gaba directly,but over does.
FYI First kava kava has very weak if NO affect on benzo sites which is why its not a replacment of a benzo.Also GHB is actualy not a major gaba drug,rather it surpresses dopamine,and has effects on numerous other things.
Pure gaba isnt the answer,if it were GABAITRIL,a gaba ruptake drug would be very popular,while instead most people hate it.
Personaly i recomend the above for over the counter and the above for drug use.
Gaba itself will prob do nothing more than make u tingle.
Posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:19:36
> > >
> >
> > That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
>
>
> Not true,xyrem was recently given the go ahead for OFF LABEL use,so its up to the docters discression to use it for something as common as clinical insomnia which it is being used for,even though as u stated its FDA approval is initialy for narcolepsy.
Any drug can theoretically be used off-label in the US. That doesn't mean that it will be used off-label, as there have not been peer-reviewed studies that sufficiently place it in the realm of antidepressant use that psychiatrists would feel comfortable enough to use it because others are already doing so and they collaborate.I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be examined, but it is not as harmless as previously thought. That's why its C-III, which is written on tamper proof pads or triplicates depending on your state.
This psychiatrist promoted Xyrem for off-label use and the publicity got him in rather major troublehttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/business/22drugdoc.html?ex=1171861200&en=aa8915409cf87521&ei=5070
That is what I'm talking about why some psychiatrists are conservative about the off-label use of medication. To make an example, my psychiatrist is not a GP or a back doctor. However, he has the go-ahead from my GP to prescribe Robaxin because the two have collaborated and I have signed a consent form for inter-communication and it is easier to renew the medications in one spot. But even with the drug, there were P450 interactions that might not have been picked up by someone not knowledgable in Serotonin Syndrome. Robaxin is an old agent and was never tested against P450. So we reduced the dose a bit.
I don't think you would want your psychiatrist say, prescribing antibiotics. They've been through medical school, but it is out of their realm of practice. An exception might be if you were on Clozaril or Remeron and developed agranulocytosis and a confirmed infection. Then he or she might prescribe preventative care with or without collaboration with your GP. Most likely would refer you to the ER in fact.
The same can be said that I don't think most GPs should be prescribing major pscyhoactive substances, especially neuroleptics, etc., because they don't have the training to recognize signs of EPS and TD, unless they have taken CE credits.
Sometimes in a small town it is necessary for a GP to prescribe a psychoactive substance such as, oh, Prozac, say. But I'd feel more comfortable if the individual took CE credits on how the P450 interactive system works.-- tidings.
Posted by laima on February 17, 2007, at 8:17:02
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » willyee, posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
A warning about kava, I discovered it can sometimes flip into being a stimulant for some mysterious reason. This is not even a matter of the brand, it's the kava itself. It happened to me before, and googeling "kava" and "stimulant" together produced a fair amount of results describing kava's use as a stimulant. Perhaps it's got to do with what someone above mentioned- it affects a large, wide range of receptors. I imagine that makes it a premium candidate to interact unpredictably with other medications and substances. Meanwhile, Medline gives it an "A" for anxiety, and they hardly ever give "A"s to any herbal supplements. Valerian is far more subtle, but far more predictable, too.
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