![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by FrequentFryer on October 27, 2006, at 18:20:08
Hi All
Im still suffering from chronic suicidal depression. Every class of Anti-d's work for me (after a month) for about 2 weeks @ max dose, then after two the to Antidepressed weeks I am worse then normal (cant think clearly depression anxiety etc).
my psych put me on a trycyclic (Nortriptaline){Ive never really tried a trycyclic before} and hopefully it's effects will last.Anyways until the Tricyclic works I have been taking Clonazapan, but the thing is I have an extremely high tollerance to benzos for some reason (maybe because I drink to much alcohole). Ive been taking 10mg of Clonaz & it helps the social phobia quite a bit (it even helps my depression a bit). But 10mg is the MAX recommended dose. Part of the reason I take such a high dose is because I expect to feel a nice euphoric relaxing reaction like other benzos have done in the past, although now I think about it even at 10 mg I dont really feel any euphoria just some social anxiety relief, I also get hardcore memory loss which usually goes away when the drug wears off.
Do you think I should try and stay of the benzo's for a while and then take approxamitly 6 or 7 or 8 mg when needed?And do you reckon these Clonazapam binges combined with alcohol could produce long term damage. I thought benzo's were fairly non toxic.
Also its pretty unlikely the alcohole is causing the meds to stop working isn't it... Otherwise they wouldn't work in the first place.
Thanks heaps for any advice!
Regards
Tom
Posted by Phillipa on October 27, 2006, at 22:08:41
In reply to High dose benzo usage, posted by FrequentFryer on October 27, 2006, at 18:20:08
That's an awful lot of klonopin. I used to drink 5-6 beers but I only took .5 xanax with it. I think you better get off the booze and then try to lower the klonopin. Did you doc put you on this high dose? Love Phillipa
Posted by dbc on October 27, 2006, at 23:31:04
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage » FrequentFryer, posted by Phillipa on October 27, 2006, at 22:08:41
Well the good news is your brain is just going to stop encoding memories long before you get even remotely close to the LD50. People are prescribed up to 10mg of xanax for panic disorder and some are prescribed a hell of alot more. Combining the booze and benzos is where you get into trouble though, i'd seriously cut down on that combination.
5mg a day was the highest dose i ever took with klonopin and i was lucky if i could tie my boots at that point.
Posted by yxibow on October 28, 2006, at 1:54:16
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by dbc on October 27, 2006, at 23:31:04
> Well the good news is your brain is just going to stop encoding memories long before you get even remotely close to the LD50. People are prescribed up to 10mg of xanax for panic disorder and some are prescribed a hell of alot more. Combining the booze and benzos is where you get into trouble though, i'd seriously cut down on that combination.
>
> 5mg a day was the highest dose i ever took with klonopin and i was lucky if i could tie my boots at that point.I've taken up to 8mg a day of Klonopin. Definitely right that the LD50 is much higher than barbiturates, I think we've covered that earlier this session. The trouble comes with alcohol or any CNS depressant -and- a benzodiazepine. At that level, and I also take a certain high dose of Valium equivalent, it is a rather good recommendation that considering the relatively long (16+ hours on average) half life of Klonopin, one sticks to an occasional drink once a day to as little as once a week at most, depending on your body. And don't take it as a chaser.
The two lead to lung depression and that is a rather nasty thing that one does not want.
-- tidings
Jay
Posted by bassman on October 28, 2006, at 9:09:54
In reply to High dose benzo usage, posted by FrequentFryer on October 27, 2006, at 18:20:08
Tom,
I'd be careful of the "I expect to feel a nice euphoric relaxing reaction" expectation-it just causes the desire for more and more benzos-same thing with booze. The benzos are really for becoming functional, not for feeling "better than normal". I think the desired state with benzos is to calm you down sufficiently that you can do the stuff in life that you want to and are obligated to...I feel I have to not ask myself how I feel each day, but rather adjust benzo intake to the point that I feel calm enough that life isn't miserable, but alert enough that I don't lake motivation or excitement. And them stay at that dose, period. It's a fine line. I have to do the same thing with booze: no more than 3 glasses wine, no matter what, no matter how I feel. Just my way of dealing with the whole thing...best of luck!
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 17:28:17
In reply to High dose benzo usage, posted by FrequentFryer on October 27, 2006, at 18:20:08
Hi Tom,
I'm sorry you're having such a hard time escaping depression. Sure, you can get a buzz going which will make you feel different for a while. I bet there are a lot of combinations out there that will give you a buzz. I really crave alcohol when I want to escape my depression. After a beer or three, the evening is somehow more manageable. But the next day is not so good. I feel worse. And then it spirals. Mind you, I never had a classical physical hangover from only 1 or 3 beers. But the effects on my mental health were not so pretty.My T said something once. "Alcohol is a wonderful antidepressant, except that it has some bad side effects, including... depression". Actually, my T told me that one twice, at 4 month intervals. My pdoc heard me tell him that I was self-medicating with a beer or 3 most nights a week. Even though that's not pathological alcoholism, he prescribed me benzo klonopin. Saying that klonopin was a heck of a lot safer than alcohol.
hope you get some real relief soon,
-Li
Posted by Phillipa on October 28, 2006, at 18:55:03
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage » FrequentFryer, posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 17:28:17
So wierd as for the time I was in my twenties til 9 years ago nightly I drank beer in my twenties three unless it was the weekend then more and later I was drinking 5-6 beers nightly after work all the while on benzos. And in my twenties that included mephrobromate. Strange as I always felt wonderful in the morning. For some reason it never depressed me. It was when I stopped the depression hit. Only reason I stopped was that I was given chloral hydrate to sleep. Well and I'm still breathing so I guess I was lucky? Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on October 28, 2006, at 21:17:53
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by Phillipa on October 28, 2006, at 18:55:03
> So wierd as for the time I was in my twenties til 9 years ago nightly I drank beer in my twenties three unless it was the weekend then more and later I was drinking 5-6 beers nightly after work all the while on benzos. And in my twenties that included mephrobromate. Strange as I always felt wonderful in the morning. For some reason it never depressed me. It was when I stopped the depression hit. Only reason I stopped was that I was given chloral hydrate to sleep. Well and I'm still breathing so I guess I was lucky? Love Phillipa
I'm afraid to say, Jan, yes I think you were probably lucky. 42, while being the answer to anything (re: Hitchhikers Guide if this seems obtuse...), is not the answer to beer weekly + benzodiazepines + meprobamate (has some properties of barbiturates). That can be lethal.The wonderful part was the dopamine increase and the GABA massage, but your liver is the key here. I assume you've had exams since that time.
It is true that it is much easier on the system to take another Klonopin than to down a sixpack. Most competent psychiatrists will advocate that.
- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on October 28, 2006, at 22:14:16
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on October 28, 2006, at 21:17:53
Jay l0 years without a drink and my liver enzymes were in the middle of normal til the diverticulitis which my doc said was normal but I freaked out went back to the ER a few days later and had them repeated and all but one was normal again. Then had my GP repeat them and unfortunately he doesn't include numbers but normal was written next to the liver enzyme. It was my thyroid that is now hyper. And I have low autoimmune diseases many the rheumatoligists said. No lupus, no sjournes, and a couple of others he tested. Love Phillipa got a corona with lime?
Posted by ronaldo on October 29, 2006, at 15:24:32
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by dbc on October 27, 2006, at 23:31:04
> Well the good news is your brain is just going to stop encoding memories long before you get even remotely close to the LD50. People are prescribed up to 10mg of xanax for panic disorder and some are prescribed a hell of alot more. Combining the booze and benzos is where you get into trouble though, i'd seriously cut down on that combination.
>
> 5mg a day was the highest dose i ever took with klonopin and i was lucky if i could tie my boots at that point.What does LD50 mean?
"LD stands for "Lethal Dose". LD50 is the amount of a material, given all at once, which causes the death of 50% (one half) of a group of test animals. The LD50 is one way to measure the short-term poisoning potential (acute toxicity) of a material.
Toxicologists can use many kinds of animals but most often testing is done with rats and mice. It is usually expressed as the amount of chemical administered (e.g., milligrams) per 100 grams (for smaller animals) or per kilogram (for bigger test subjects) of the body weight of the test animal. The LD50 can be found for any route of entry or administration but dermal (applied to the skin) and oral (given by mouth) administration methods are the most common."
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/ld50.html
So what is the LD50 for a 80kg man? Where would one find this information? On the pamphlet inside the little cardboard box that the pills came in? Never seen it myself.
...Alan
Posted by bassman on October 29, 2006, at 16:32:48
In reply to What does LD50 mean? re high dose benzo » dbc, posted by ronaldo on October 29, 2006, at 15:24:32
It's hard to get good LD50 info for humans. When they try to do the studies, they always seem to be short on volunteers...:>}
Posted by ronaldo on October 30, 2006, at 9:44:28
In reply to Re: What does LD50 mean? re high dose benzo, posted by bassman on October 29, 2006, at 16:32:48
It'd be a bit like Russian Roulette.
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 30, 2006, at 11:09:05
In reply to way I feel I'd volunteer for LD 50 (double blind) » bassman, posted by ronaldo on October 30, 2006, at 9:44:28
I bet it varies widely, especially for us humans. Rats and mice are usually all so inbred. Often a study just tests a single strain of rats.
Think about how much the lethal dose of alcohol varies. If one's liver is used to metabolizing a lot of alcohol, but hasn't yet been damaged from regular binge drinking, one can usually tolerate a lot more alcohol (milliliters ingested/kg or whatever) than someone who's having their first drink.
Also, men and women tend to have different rates of metabolizing and clearing drugs. One reason why is because women's bodies contain less water per kilogram of bodyweight (because we have more fat, less muscle, on average. ) So, if a drug is water soluble, then men have more water to dissolve it in. Drugs that are soluble in fatty substances, like (steroids) show this opposite pattern for women...
plus, who wants to sign up for that study? The "volunteer participants" may have some "issues".
I can see the newspaper ad now
"Study is seeking volunteers to participate in a study of drug lethality. Roughly half of subjects will be compensated for their time and receive free medical care..."
-Li
Posted by yxibow on October 30, 2006, at 17:14:11
In reply to Re: way I feel I'd volunteer for LD 50 (double bli » ronaldo, posted by Lindenblüte on October 30, 2006, at 11:09:05
> I bet it varies widely, especially for us humans. Rats and mice are usually all so inbred. Often a study just tests a single strain of rats.
While surprisingly little creatures, for LD50 testing they are (and this is coming from a vegetarian) cheap and "lower on the food chain" than killing dogs with substances (which is done, but much less thankfully) and share certain base primal brain features with humans. We're not talking a few animals, but dozens tested at doses that would floor a human in terms of relative weight.
This isn't just for medications, hardware/paint products, industrial chemicals, etc, have all been challenged if they're going to be in an OSHA setting.
The one thing that I disapprove is rampant wholesale testing for cosmetics, which except for certain situations (dermatological medications and things used in reconstructive surgery, etc.), is not a necessity for life. But that's just my soapbox. Also a lot of OTC lotion ingredients, e.g., have already been tested anyhow and are considered GRAS (generally recognized as safe) by the FDA.-- tidings
Jay
Posted by FrequentFryer on November 1, 2006, at 1:10:33
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage » FrequentFryer, posted by Phillipa on October 27, 2006, at 22:08:41
> That's an awful lot of klonopin. I used to drink 5-6 beers but I only took .5 xanax with it. I think you better get off the booze and then try to lower the klonopin. Did you doc put you on this high dose? Love Phillipa.
Did you doc put you on this high dose? No he didn't.
But thats ok I can quit them & will, just hope my memory comes back
Posted by FrequentFryer on November 1, 2006, at 1:13:30
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by dbc on October 27, 2006, at 23:31:04
Thanks for the good news.
Im gonna quit both, I have good will power @ quiting drugs
Posted by FrequentFryer on November 1, 2006, at 16:51:08
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by Phillipa on October 28, 2006, at 18:55:03
> So wierd as for the time I was in my twenties til 9 years ago nightly I drank beer in my twenties three unless it was the weekend then more and later I was drinking 5-6 beers nightly after work all the while on benzos. And in my twenties that included mephrobromate. Strange as I always felt wonderful in the morning. For some reason it never depressed me. It was when I stopped the depression hit. Only reason I stopped was that I was given chloral hydrate to sleep. Well and I'm still breathing so I guess I was lucky? Love Phillipa
Yeah Im gonna get off the alcohol & benzo's ...I can do it easy, Ive got good will power when getting off drugs (lots of practice), my shor term benzo binge was actually to help me in the transition of Effexor to Nortryptaline {trycyclic.. AND THE NORTRIP IS WORKING!! It even only took 2 weaks to notice the effects of Nortrip Aswell!!
AND Nortriptaline has less side effects for me then any other Anti-D, Im loving it, wonder how long it will last.
Posted by Lindenblüte on November 1, 2006, at 17:10:11
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by FrequentFryer on November 1, 2006, at 16:51:08
> Yeah Im gonna get off the alcohol & benzo's ...I can do it easy, Ive got good will power when getting off drugs (lots of practice), my shor term benzo binge was actually to help me in the transition of Effexor to Nortryptaline {trycyclic.. AND THE NORTRIP IS WORKING!! It even only took 2 weaks to notice the effects of Nortrip Aswell!!
> AND Nortriptaline has less side effects for me then any other Anti-D, Im loving it, wonder how long it will last.hey FF, that's fantastic. What a change in tone from your post at the beginning of the thread. I'm glad you're getting some relief. Just be careful quitting alcohol and benzos cold turkey. If your body has acquired any dependence for them you may feel bad for a couple of days- or maybe just a little unstable. I'm glad the nortriptaline is working out for you- keep posting :)
-Li
Posted by FrequentFryer on November 1, 2006, at 17:28:46
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage » FrequentFryer, posted by Lindenblüte on November 1, 2006, at 17:10:11
> > Yeah Im gonna get off the alcohol & benzo's ...I can do it easy, Ive got good will power when getting off drugs (lots of practice), my shor term benzo binge was actually to help me in the transition of Effexor to Nortryptaline {trycyclic.. AND THE NORTRIP IS WORKING!! It even only took 2 weaks to notice the effects of Nortrip Aswell!!
> > AND Nortriptaline has less side effects for me then any other Anti-D, Im loving it, wonder how long it will last.
>
> hey FF, that's fantastic. What a change in tone from your post at the beginning of the thread. I'm glad you're getting some relief. Just be careful quitting alcohol and benzos cold turkey. If your body has acquired any dependence for them you may feel bad for a couple of days- or maybe just a little unstable. I'm glad the nortriptaline is working out for you- keep posting :)
>
> -Li
>Cheers, I will keep ya's all posted, cos I have taken all classes of Anti-d's many times and they all poop out on me like clockwork, maybe I was just born a tricyclic kinda guy :)
Posted by ramsea on November 6, 2006, at 5:52:00
In reply to Re: High dose benzo usage, posted by FrequentFryer on November 1, 2006, at 17:28:46
anyone with experience or knowledge of using benydryl (diphenhydramine) and benzo withdrawal? doses in equivalence to benzo (in this case lorazepam??
i know how you're not supposed to quit benzos cold turkey and without medical supervision.
Posted by yxibow on November 7, 2006, at 6:49:14
In reply to Re: benzo withdrawal and diphenhydramine?, posted by ramsea on November 6, 2006, at 5:52:00
> anyone with experience or knowledge of using benydryl (diphenhydramine) and benzo withdrawal? doses in equivalence to benzo (in this case lorazepam??
>
> i know how you're not supposed to quit benzos cold turkey and without medical supervision.Then DONT. And seek real medical supervision, this is like the third posting.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.