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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 29, 2006, at 15:23:34
Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this....
low dose Selegiline + Phenylalanine supposedly increases dopamine levels.. while I have heard that green tea , or even just tea period is a COMT inhibitor.How much of a differance does the COMT inhibition play in " keeping the dopamine around"?
Is it possible that someone with the "val/val" varient if the COMT gene( which supposedly breaks down DA/NE very fast??) is too low on dopamine and would have symptoms such as total exhaustion, no motivation, social avoidance, cloudy thinking, etc. ?
JB
Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2006, at 16:25:45
In reply to Selegiline - dopamine - COMT inhibition, posted by Jimmyboy on August 29, 2006, at 15:23:34
Good question. I know there have been a few studies showing that in schizophrenia, those with the lower activity of COMT have a better cognitivie outcome.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2006, at 21:44:04
In reply to Re: Selegiline - dopamine - COMT inhibition, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2006, at 16:25:45
What does green tea do as I'm drinking a lot of iced green tea lately? Love Phillipa
Posted by mayzee on August 29, 2006, at 22:09:29
In reply to Selegiline - dopamine - COMT inhibition, posted by Jimmyboy on August 29, 2006, at 15:23:34
> low dose Selegiline + Phenylalanine supposedly increases dopamine levels.. while I have heard that green tea , or even just tea period is a COMT inhibitor.
>What is COMT?
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 29, 2006, at 23:23:15
In reply to Re: Selegiline - dopamine - COMT inhibition » Jimmyboy, posted by mayzee on August 29, 2006, at 22:09:29
I think Linkage knows alot more about this.. I have just done a little reading on it today.. but I think its an enzyme that is responsible for clearing out/ cleaning up dopamine and norepinepherine in your system. (Linkage's above posts about green tea got me looking into it, b/c I am pretty sure I have a shortage of dopamine. The below article is kind of interesting, but technical.. apparently there are 3 types of the COMT gene.
One of which is the valine / valine variant which might clear out too much dopamine ( ??) and according to the article is thought to possibly be one of causes of bipolar / major depression , etc.
anyway here is the article.. if anyone else can decipher this I would be interested.
JB
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 30, 2006, at 14:19:25
In reply to Re: Selegiline - dopamine - COMT inhibition, posted by Jimmyboy on August 29, 2006, at 23:23:15
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2006, at 17:33:41
In reply to Another interesting article, posted by Jimmyboy on August 30, 2006, at 14:19:25
Yeah, thats right, it is a pathway of dopamine and norepeinephrine metabolism.
The flavanoid quercetin is also a COMT inhibitor, but it is also a MAO-A inhibitor! Quercetin is active in animal models of depression.
I have combined COMT inhibitors with MAO-B inhibitors and they do have synergistic effects, though I'd just caution the use of MAO-B, COMT, and DAT inhibitors in combination.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2006, at 17:41:17
In reply to Re: Another interesting article, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2006, at 17:33:41
Link you're so smart. I'm not brillient like you. Is there a simple like maybe if you were writing to a third grader way of explaining this to me? Love Phillipa
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 30, 2006, at 20:15:42
In reply to Re: Another interesting article, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2006, at 17:33:41
Link, you seem to know a bit bout this, so if you get a chance maybe you can answer this..
What would happen if you did combined MAO B + COMT inhibitor + DAT inhibtor?
So that would be like a EMSAM/ Selegiline , green tea , ritalin combo to avoid?What are the odds that having the val/val variant of the COMt gene could lead to atypical depressive symptoms ( hypersomnia, low motivation, hard to concentrate, social avoidance, passivity, etc) . These all seem kind of like traits of having low dopamine?
Anyway, my interest here is that last winter I took low dose selegiline 5mg + 500 mg phenylalanine and it quickly boosted me out of a bad depression and worked really well for awhile... also during this time, it was cold and was drinking a few cups of tea ( possible COMT inhibition). About the time it started to warm up , quit drinking tea regularly, kept taking Seleg + Phenylalanine, but the effect started fading out and not working... think the tea could have made the difference??
Thanks for the input
JB
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2006, at 21:33:53
In reply to Re: Another interesting article » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2006, at 17:41:17
Green tea will increase the levels of norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain.
The brain uses an enzyme called COMT to eat up dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. When you drink green tea, you supress COMT, ie. you supress the brain's ability to eat up norepinephrine and dopamine thus leaving more in the brain.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2006, at 21:37:39
In reply to Re: Another interesting article » linkadge, posted by Jimmyboy on August 30, 2006, at 20:15:42
I'm not an expert I can only speculate.
>What would happen if you did combined MAO B + >COMT inhibitor + DAT inhibtor?
You could wind up with overstimulation, or perhaps symtpoms of dopaminergic excess like irritability, psychosis etc.
>So that would be like a EMSAM/ Selegiline , >green tea , ritalin combo to avoid?
I'd certainly be cautious about combining those three.
>What are the odds that having the val/val >variant of the COMt gene could lead to atypical >depressive symptoms ( hypersomnia, low >motivation, hard to concentrate, social >avoidance, passivity, etc) . These all seem >kind of like traits of having low dopamine?
Its hard to say. There are one heck of a lot of factors. If a COMT inhibitor abolished your symptoms, it could be likely though.
>Anyway, my interest here is that last winter I >took low dose selegiline 5mg + 500 mg >phenylalanine and it quickly boosted me out of >a bad depression and worked really well for >awhile... also during this time, it was cold >and was drinking a few cups of tea ( possible >COMT inhibition). About the time it started to >warm up , quit drinking tea regularly, kept >taking Seleg + Phenylalanine, but the effect >started fading out and not working... think the >tea could have made the difference??
Its possable. Green tea extracts have been used for weight loss based on their ability to boost norepinephrine levels.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2006, at 18:46:32
In reply to Re: Another interesting article » Phillipa, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2006, at 21:33:53
Link is that a good thing for someone with extreme anxiety? Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2006, at 19:34:00
In reply to Re: Another interesting article » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2006, at 18:46:32
I had never found COMT inhibitors to increase anxiety really. Though, I don't know how much inhibition of COMT one would get with moderate green tea consumption.
Green tea also contains theanine, which is an agent supposedly good for anxiety.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2006, at 20:04:27
In reply to Re: Another interesting article, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2006, at 19:34:00
Link thanks I'll continue my two bottles of green tea daily then. Love Phillipa
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 31, 2006, at 20:33:03
In reply to Re: Another interesting article » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2006, at 20:04:27
Well, I started taking the green tea extract this morning ( 4 caps over the day) ( 125mg extract, 395mg powder leaf each) in hopes that the COMT inhibitor theory might be of some help. Astonishingly , I feel better than I have in MONTHS. Anyway the COMT inhibitoin could happen that fast, as over the course of one day? Anyway, I am pretty sure its not placecbo b/c I have tried several medicine over the last few months, to no avail ... I was still exhausted, lacked motivation, emotionally flat, socially withdrawn, etc. Now all of a sudden today, i feel closer to normal than I have in a long time????
I have known for awhile that my problem is definitely low dopamine. Maybe this EMSAM ( for MAO B inhibition) and COMT inhibition effect together would boost the dopamine ??
If low dopamine in prefrontal cortex is the problem ( I wholeheartedly believe this), is there a better combo to acheive that?Thanks
JB
Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2006, at 6:40:49
In reply to Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT, posted by Jimmyboy on August 31, 2006, at 20:33:03
COMT inhibition will occur immediately.
As far as increasing dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, I don't know of too many other ways.
-COMT, MAO-B, DAT inhibition
-5-ht2a/5-ht2c blockade,
-5-ht1a agonism,
-alpha-2 adrenoreceptor antagonism,
-Omega-3 (increases the content of dopamine in
the prefrontal cortex)
I found there was a synergy between green tea, and omega-3.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2006, at 20:42:56
In reply to Re: Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2006, at 6:40:49
Link so the green tea has to be an extract is it sold in a health food store? And how much Omega 3 do you take? Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on September 2, 2006, at 15:22:58
In reply to Re: Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2006, at 20:42:56
No, no. You could drink plain old regulat green tea and have an effect, though an extract may be more concentrated.
I take about 800mg of EPA, and 800mg DHA, in the form of fish oil.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2006, at 20:57:10
In reply to Re: Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT, posted by linkadge on September 2, 2006, at 15:22:58
Thanks Link you cleared that one up. I drank two bottles today. Love Phillipa
Posted by Anhedonic on September 4, 2006, at 21:15:37
In reply to Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT, posted by Jimmyboy on August 31, 2006, at 20:33:03
Hi JB,
Any updates on the green tea? Are you still getting the same affects? If so, what sort of positive effects are you getting related to your symptoms?-Shane
> Well, I started taking the green tea extract this morning ( 4 caps over the day) ( 125mg extract, 395mg powder leaf each) in hopes that the COMT inhibitor theory might be of some help. Astonishingly , I feel better than I have in MONTHS. Anyway the COMT inhibitoin could happen that fast, as over the course of one day? Anyway, I am pretty sure its not placecbo b/c I have tried several medicine over the last few months, to no avail ... I was still exhausted, lacked motivation, emotionally flat, socially withdrawn, etc. Now all of a sudden today, i feel closer to normal than I have in a long time????
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 7, 2006, at 8:47:49
In reply to Re: Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT » Jimmyboy, posted by Anhedonic on September 4, 2006, at 21:15:37
Actually yes, I am still taking it and it definitely gives me a lift for several hours 5-6 , now I am not sure how much caffeine is in these , so that could be it , I don;t know. But I usually don;t like the effect caffeine gives me, makes me shaky.
JB
Posted by psychobot5000 on September 7, 2006, at 20:25:17
In reply to Re: Advice - low prefrontal cortex dopamine - COMT, posted by Jimmyboy on September 7, 2006, at 8:47:49
I get a positive effect in this way from drinking green tea, similar to that from taking powdered tea-extract capsules. They both work, even if the tea is of a type especially low in caffeine--(names like hojicha or bancha are good if you're trying to get the other chemicals and avoid caffeine. They're also easy to brew and tasty! :) )
I also seem to get a marked synergy from mixing green tea with low dose methylphenidate--which I believe inhibits dopamine metabolism by inhibiting DAT...of course it has other powerful stimulant effects, so who knows.
Posted by psychobot5000 on September 7, 2006, at 20:34:45
In reply to Re: Another interesting article, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2006, at 19:34:00
Regarding tea consumption and anxiety:
I am usually unpleasantly sensitive to caffeine--drinking a cup of coffee or cola usually makes for a tense, undesirable experience. But after large quantities of tea (especially green), I feel a pleasant and clear (though stimulated) relaxation.
I reason that there must be anxiolytic chemicals in tea countering caffeine's effect. ...It is clear in such cases that the caffeine and other stimulants are present by the my increased heart rate, 'tea sweat' etc. Tea is quite a cocktail of chemicals, but they are much tested, and mostly seem to be healthy. I mention consuming tea to the point of significantly increased heart-rate (as is done in tea ceremony and social settings in some east asian countries), to make a point about the substance, rather than to encourage it. Moderation seems the way to go.
I find tea to increase the efficacy of methylphenidate in fighting innattentive ADD type symptoms. I can't convince myself I have noticed the same synergy with amphetamine.
P-bot
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