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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by mike lynch on August 13, 2006, at 16:47:33
In reply to Is Kramer right?, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2006, at 11:57:21
I wonder if they're the same as mine.
Posted by willyee on August 13, 2006, at 16:51:56
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » linkadge, posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 16:13:13
Im trying my hardest to follow this thread as it has me concerned,however in all honesty and i guess im just not quick on the draw im quite lost,can anyone put any of this into a lamons term at all,i know linkadge and scott alone can have a conversation that would loose me in a milisecond,i suppose i should just get the book eh,lol in all seriousness im left only with the conlusion that im screwed trying to make anything from this thread,is that pretty much correct?
Posted by Aphrodite on August 13, 2006, at 17:24:32
In reply to Re: Optimistic part, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2006, at 15:41:00
Is lithium commonly prescribed for the subject Kramer speaks of, which is major depressive disorder? It was my understanding that it was used for bipolar disorder.
On the other hand, I've also read that lithium is given to the seriously suicidal, so that would indicate efficacy in that particular symptom of severe depression.
Interesting information -- thanks!
Posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 19:25:04
In reply to Re: Optimistic part, posted by willyee on August 13, 2006, at 16:51:56
> Im trying my hardest to follow this thread as it has me concerned,however in all honesty and i guess im just not quick on the draw im quite lost,can anyone put any of this into a lamons term at all,i know linkadge and scott alone can have a conversation that would loose me in a milisecond,i suppose i should just get the book eh,lol in all seriousness im left only with the conlusion that im screwed trying to make anything from this thread,is that pretty much correct?
Very, very loosely, and hopefully someone can jump in, correct, and fill in for me, Dinah has been reading Kramer's book which sounds as if it is saying something about how depressed brains are not the same as "normal" brains. That that depressed brains are "atrophied", or somehow shrunken or damaged. Maybe even that a depressed brain can never be like a "normal" brain. The thought of this is obviously rather depressing in itself, so Linkadage and the rest jumped in to offer evidence that a depressed brain CAN change, CAN get better. "Neurogenesis" is something like "growing new brain cells", or getting better. One of the the major theories of depression these days is that depressed brains have "atrophied", or somehow shrunken. The agreement of the thread is that a depressed brain can in fact grow new cells and get much better. So why would Kramer write this sort of stuff? Possibly because some people don't believe depression is a real, actual condition- that it is merely an "attitude problem" or something like that- and he's trying to convince them that it is much more serious and "real" than that. It is a genuine medical condition. The good news for depressed people here is that hopefully others will learn more about what we go really through. Dinah let us know that she understands Kramer believes that a brain can get better, too. But nevertheless, it sounds like a depressing book. However, probably nothing we should worry about, we are probably not even the audience he intended it for. We already know what it is like to be depressed, after all.
In any case, this is what I understand about the thread- but I might be wrong, because I haven't read the book.
Posted by Phillipa on August 13, 2006, at 19:41:12
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » willyee, posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 19:25:04
Excellent summary. Thanks it definitely helped me too. It must be like listening to prozac that book scared me. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2006, at 19:55:37
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » linkadge, posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 16:13:13
>How do you know so many things, anyway?
Perhaps some of my attemtps to grow new brain cells have been sucessfull :)
Probably more that the topic interests me.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2006, at 20:04:09
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » linkadge, posted by Aphrodite on August 13, 2006, at 17:24:32
Lithium is generally not a first line treatment for depression, at least here in America. I understand that things are slightly different in Europe, where the drug is used for depression more often.
Kramer was a doctor not a medical researcher, so I wouldn't say that he was on the forefront of this type of thing.
I think he was really just attemtping to reduce some of the stimga about the disease.
Nobody would dare to blame something like cancer on a "personaltiy flaw" or weakenss. Yet depression is still seen as such by many people.
Ie. I don't know if Kramer was aware of Lithium's capabilities.
If Manjii's work is right, there is reason to believe that either lithium or valproate (even if only used in small doses), may have more ability to reduce the progression of the disease, than antidepressants do.
See:http://www.mcmanweb.com/article-191.htm
Linkadge
Posted by cecilia on August 13, 2006, at 20:51:30
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » Aphrodite, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2006, at 20:04:09
Actually, people dare to blame people with cancer for their personal flaws or weakness all the time. They are blamed for their "cancer prone personalities" and their bad health habits. I read an article by a woman with lung cancer who was one of the 15% of women with lung cancer who had never smoked, even so, she said, she was treated like dirt, like it must be her fault. (And even if someone does smoke, the blame should go to the tobacco companies who try so hard to get teenagers hooked on tobacco when they are young and think they're immortal. Has anyone noticed those "antismoking" commercials sponsored by the tobacco companies. They make me furious!!!!!! They tell parents to "talk to your kids about not smoking". Those companies aren't dumb, just extremely evil, they know the best way to get kids smoking is to have parents telling them not to. Cecilia
Posted by cecilia on August 13, 2006, at 21:18:53
In reply to Is Kramer right?, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2006, at 11:57:21
I haven't read Kramer's latest book, but I skimmed through it at the bookstore and it looked like it was taking hundreds of pages to say "depression is bad". Like, does anyone really think it's good? Who wouldn't want it eliminated? Unfortunately, not everyone responds to Prozac or any other med the way the patients in his 1st book so miraculously did. Cecilia
Posted by Phillipa on August 13, 2006, at 21:24:08
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right?, posted by cecilia on August 13, 2006, at 21:18:53
Cecelia thanks. I haven't read the book. So his patients miraculously respond to meds? That would be depressing in itself to read. It would mean that I have a fatal flaw, what's wrong with me everyone else is fine what about me? Is this what it's about? Love Phillipa
Posted by willyee on August 13, 2006, at 22:40:42
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » willyee, posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 19:25:04
Thanks a million,much clearer now!!!!!!!!!
Posted by willyee on August 13, 2006, at 22:42:43
In reply to Re: Optimistic part, posted by willyee on August 13, 2006, at 16:51:56
Oh just FYI,just in case,that was sincere not sarcasim,it does make more sense to me now,ty.
Posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 23:54:12
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » willyee, posted by willyee on August 13, 2006, at 22:42:43
> Oh just FYI,just in case,that was sincere not sarcasim,it does make more sense to me now,ty.
Sure! No problem, I'm so happy I could be of any help.
Posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 23:57:24
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » laima, posted by Phillipa on August 13, 2006, at 19:41:12
> Excellent summary. Thanks it definitely helped me too. It must be like listening to prozac that book scared me. Love Phillipa
Oh yes- that's the other book I was referring to in earlier posts- I never read it- I picked it up a few times, but somehow just couldn't get into it. I have no idea if I was being fair or not, but in my mind I always blamed Kramer for the prozac rucous of that era...Do you remember that stuff and all those jokes???
Posted by laima on August 13, 2006, at 23:58:54
In reply to Re: Optimistic part, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2006, at 19:55:37
> >How do you know so many things, anyway?
>
> Perhaps some of my attemtps to grow new brain cells have been sucessfull :)
>
> Probably more that the topic interests me.
>
> Linkadge
It interests me too- it's so key for a lot of us!
Thanks again for sharing that long list.
Posted by laima on August 14, 2006, at 0:01:51
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » Aphrodite, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2006, at 20:04:09
>Nobody would dare to blame something like cancer on a "personaltiy flaw" or weakenss
You'd be surprised- it's happened to a friend of mine who is battleing brain tumours. It's happened to her a lot- people directly and indirectly accusing her of unhealthy living and such.
Posted by laima on August 14, 2006, at 0:04:15
In reply to Re: Optimistic part » linkadge, posted by cecilia on August 13, 2006, at 20:51:30
> Has anyone noticed those "antismoking" commercials sponsored by the tobacco companies. They make me furious!!!!!! They tell parents to "talk to your kids about not smoking". Those companies aren't dumb, just extremely evil, they know the best way to get kids smoking is to have parents telling them not to. Cecilia
That's so sinister!!! I never understood before why they did that!
Posted by laima on August 14, 2006, at 0:27:09
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right?, posted by cecilia on August 13, 2006, at 21:18:53
> Unfortunately, not everyone responds to Prozac or any other med the way the patients in his 1st book so miraculously did. Cecilia
When prozac came out it REALLY was a miraculous breakthrough:
Easy to use, "activating", supposedly very safe, relatively free of the side effects that plagued the tricyclics and maois. And that of course was well before anyone knew about the "poop out" and before anyone spoke of sexual side effects or emotional blunting. Right before its introduction, I tried just about every single available tricyclic, one after another, but they all made me lethargic, slug-like, and gain weight. (No one dared give me, sneaky teenager, any maoi, or even mentioned the possibility.) Then came prozac- brand new- and it truely seemed miraculous. I had never even heard of it when I got my first prescription. It was the start of an entirely new class of drugs. It was supposed to revolutionize psychiatry by being safe, effective, and super-easy to prescribe. True- did not likely work for everyone-but in the begining when it worked, it REALLY worked! It worked great for me-I had dropped out of college and felt like a doomed loser, but went right back and did very well there within a couple weeks. Prozac made quite a media splash, too: on the cover of Time Magazine and everything. I get the impression Kramer was swept up in all of the excitement when he wrote that prozac book. I venture to speculate that we are all a bit wiser and more sophisticated nowadays. It's still great for some people-no doubt-but it's not a magic cure for everyone, and does come with the possibility for some hefty side effects after all.
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2006, at 8:00:50
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right?, posted by SLS on August 12, 2006, at 21:46:43
> > What he's actually saying, to paraphrase as best as I can understand, is that people prone to multiple bouts of depression are people who have a defect in brain repair.
>
> As opposed to a defect in brain regulation?
>
> I think the latter is closer to the truth.
Depression appears to be a complicated illness with a multiplicity of factors contributing to its induction and persistence. Right now, I still don't think that it is a defect in brain repair that is responsible for its induction. I believe this to be more a product of dysregulation in neurotransmission and circuitry. However, I can see how such a defect could contribute to its persistence. I guess the illness might progress as a self-reenforcing process, with the inability of the brain to recover from stress-induced cell loss hindering the reestablishment of healthy interactions between entire circuits. Still, this is probably a matter of a diminished rate of repair rather than its complete absence as has been demonstrated by the recovery of brain tissue seen with lithium and antidepressant use.
- Scott
Posted by willyee on August 14, 2006, at 9:58:09
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right?, posted by SLS on August 14, 2006, at 8:00:50
> > > What he's actually saying, to paraphrase as best as I can understand, is that people prone to multiple bouts of depression are people who have a defect in brain repair.
> >
> > As opposed to a defect in brain regulation?
> >
> > I think the latter is closer to the truth.
>
>
> Depression appears to be a complicated illness with a multiplicity of factors contributing to its induction and persistence. Right now, I still don't think that it is a defect in brain repair that is responsible for its induction. I believe this to be more a product of dysregulation in neurotransmission and circuitry. However, I can see how such a defect could contribute to its persistence. I guess the illness might progress as a self-reenforcing process, with the inability of the brain to recover from stress-induced cell loss hindering the reestablishment of healthy interactions between entire circuits. Still, this is probably a matter of a diminished rate of repair rather than its complete absence as has been demonstrated by the recovery of brain tissue seen with lithium and antidepressant use.
>
>
> - ScottVery encourgaging words,thanks
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2006, at 10:26:39
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right?, posted by SLS on August 14, 2006, at 8:00:50
That's more or less what he says. That it's a cycle for some (not all) people. That some people have traits that protect them from neurological damage, and some people have the ability to repair the neurological damage, and some have neither.
I think he also says that neuroticism is a trait that is closely linked with depression, perhaps because both result from a lack of protection and of neurological resilience.
I'm already starting to forget what he says though. I need to read it again, or brush up on it. Or put it aside and never think of it again. :)
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2006, at 10:49:27
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right? » SLS, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2006, at 10:26:39
> That's more or less what he says. That it's a cycle for some (not all) people. That some people have traits that protect them from neurological damage, and some people have the ability to repair the neurological damage, and some have neither.
Hmm.
It sounds logical enough.
What does he claim is causing the damage to begin with? Is this damage a product of normal everyday living or is it abnormal and part of the disease process?
Gosh. I feel like I'm having you do a book report.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2006, at 11:09:40
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right? » Dinah, posted by SLS on August 14, 2006, at 10:49:27
I'm definitely forgetting. :)
Ummm... I think he means environmental stress.
Things that psychologically inclined people think of as causing depression. Poor parenting, trauma, stress. He says those things do contribute to depression, but only in those who are biologically predisposed.
Posted by pulse on August 14, 2006, at 11:23:34
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right? » notfred, posted by laima on August 12, 2006, at 18:56:36
> Hope so--I'm hoping for that plasticity--if Kramer is asserting that's not possible, I think that would be a tad irresponsable of him. After all, there ARE people who manage to overcome their depression or at least keep it in remission or under control. Again, haven't read any of his books- but I'm bewildered what, other than sensationalism, would motivate anyone to write anything remotely along the lines of 'depressed people are all doomed due to permanently damaged brains'- if that is what he's saying. It almost seems that believeing something like that could in itself be a predictor of staying depressed. I'm more interested to take a closer look at Lindage's list about neurogenesis, and do anything I can, whenever I can manage, to go against atrophy.
my therapist just finished this book and is very impressed with it. she made a big point of bringing it up in 1 of our latest sessions.
in no way does she feel that it's saying anything close to 'depressives are all doomed. etc.'
she's a fan of kramers; she read his 'listening to prozac' when it 1st came out, so she wanted to see his latest takes on depression.
i'm his fan also, and since i can no longer take any ads, i'm sure this book will be of at least some help to me.
Posted by Aphrodite on August 14, 2006, at 11:35:26
In reply to Re: Is Kramer right? » Dinah, posted by SLS on August 14, 2006, at 10:49:27
Not really pertinent, but this stuck with me from the book:
He makes an interesting but brief side note about German psychiatry's interest in the role of scrupulosity in mood disorders -- he states that they've conducted studies that show people with in-born, clear rules of ethics and what is right and wrong are much more likely to develop depression.
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