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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by jrw on March 9, 2001, at 16:30:54
In reply to Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds (long post), posted by Cece on March 9, 2001, at 3:14:27
Yes, I have this reverse SAD as well. Almost every
summer for many years, I have some type of
depressive episode. Now that it's March, I'm
actually dreading the coming hot and sunny months.I feel better in the fall and winter, but not
always good. But yes, I have a similar experience.
It's very strange...because most people can
understand being down when the weather is cold
and overcast...but not when the weather is 'good'.> I just found the thread "Type A or Bipolar?" started by Mikki in 10/98:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19981101/msgs/940.html
> and was very interested to hear a seasonal mood pattern which resembles my own described. My pdoc has told me that my pattern is rare, but I'm curious if maybe other people out there experience anything similar— ? I'm also quite affected by weather within seasons.
>
> Here's an outline of my experience:
> SUMMER: April (along with October) is my favorite month- I like the balance of light day to night, the interesting things happening in nature, and the feeling of change in the air. But my business, landscaping, is maniacally busy in Spring, and in past years I would begin feeling good and energetic, then push myself harder and harder, and get crazier and crazier as summer approached. I can’t keep up that pace anymore- thank god.
> SUMMER: since college- long before my "Spring maniacal" business (I’m 52), I have experienced a "reverse" SAD- I get very depressed by mid-summer (July for sure), and this continues until around early October. The way I experience it is that I feel assaulted by the bright light and glare of the summer sun, and I also feel extremely low energy when the weather is hot. I withdraw socially, find it extremely difficult to concentrate and to work, and feel more and more desperate for relief- I have felt like driving off a cliff or throwing myself out of a window- not necessarily to die, just to "break free". Smoggy, hazy, bright days are the worst; clear air and blue skies are somewhat better (I Live in CA and we get summer drought with virtually no rain to clear the air). I do enjoy the long days, as I like to be outside, and I feel better in the evenings as the light and temperature soften, although still very withdrawn. Every summer I say to myself ‘next year I have to somehow manage to just take August off from life’- but of course, this is not so easy to do (uless you're a pdoc in NYC).
> AUTUMN: Similar to Spring, but calmer, and the feeling of release from my Summer jail cell. I can count on feeling good by October. I have a spell of solid productivity.
> WINTER: I like the quiet of winter, although I get frustrated by the short days, and I often have a hard time with the holiday season (so what else is new?) I like the rain, wind, and our occasional storm, and I love it when the weather changes, and a blue sky comes out. Winter is a reflective time for me, and at it’s best, refreshing. I live where winters are mild, but also enjoyed the 3 winters that I lived in Vermont.
>
> CHANGES!: This last year, I actually enjoyed summer and only had brief periods of slipping into social withdrawal, which I was able to push myself out of. I started dating again after a long hiatus, and went swimming fairly regularly. I had recently begun Lamictal, and it seemed that that might be making the difference. I was however, avoiding dealing with my work, and I was behaving borderline promiscuously. I felt like the avoidance was some kind of depression (even though I was having fun), and at the same time wondered if I was slightly hypomanic because of my sexual behavior. But it was the first time I’d had a good spell and some fun in a long time- I felt like I was on a much needed vacation, and I didn’t want to give it up. It can be hard to tell the difference, from this perspective, between being okay and having a good time, and being off-center. Since then, I seem to have evened out on the Lamictal.
>
> MISC (RELATED?) INFO: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a ‘morning person’. Left to my own devices, I happily stay up until 2am and sleep until 10.
>
> I take (many) other meds besides Lamictal- if anyone is interested, they are listed at the end of a long post I made:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010302/msgs/55885.html
>
> I'd really appreciate hearing about other people's similar, or different experiences. I am VERY curious to see what this year's seasons bring me.
>
> Thanx,
> Cece
Posted by Rosebud on June 4, 2006, at 12:23:08
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds (long post), posted by jrw on March 9, 2001, at 16:30:54
For years I thought it was pretty simple. I hate the heat and I hate sunlight. I hate them very, very much so, naturally I would be angry and unhappy in the summer.
I have just recently discovered that reverse SAD is an actual "thing". Knowing that, I am hoping to find informtion on how to make summers more pleasant. I moved to the mountains years ago and that has helped, but now we live in a house that has no shade, and I am having a very unhappy summer so far.
Information on this is hard to find. If anyone has any good links or knows of any books on the subject I would love to know.
Posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 13:56:02
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds (long post), posted by Rosebud on June 4, 2006, at 12:23:08
This is often strange for people to believe, but I am the same way. My depression and anxiety hit a peak during the summer months, usually late July is my worst time. I can feel quite agitated and uncomfortable. I feel much *better* the rest of the year. Spring and Autumn being my favorite seasons.
I sometimes dip a little bit in the winter too, around January or so, but it's easily alleviated with wake-and-light therapy. I haven't found anything that helps summertime blues, except to stay holed up in air-conditioned rooms with all the blinds drawn. :( I become agoraphobic. I feel like I am being held hostage for 4 months by the sun.
I would love suggestions for overcoming summertime SAD.
- Chris
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2006, at 14:16:56
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 13:56:02
> I would love suggestions for overcoming summertime SAD.
You might look into manipulating your circadian rhythm by taking melatonin during the day rather than at night. You will need to experiment. Try taking it either in the morning or in the afternoon to see which is best. Of course, there is the potential for you to make things worse with one of these choices. It might be worth a try.
- Scott
Posted by Rosebud on June 4, 2006, at 14:20:42
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 13:56:02
I am working on getting some more information on this. I have contacted Dr. Rosenthal, who wrote a book on SAD, and asked for more info on Summer SAD.
As soon as I know more I will post it!
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2006, at 14:35:19
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » Caedmon, posted by SLS on June 4, 2006, at 14:16:56
> > I would love suggestions for overcoming summertime SAD.
>
> You might look into manipulating your circadian rhythm by taking melatonin during the day rather than at night. You will need to experiment. Try taking it either in the morning or in the afternoon to see which is best. Of course, there is the potential for you to make things worse with one of these choices. I would try the afternoon first. It might be worth a try.You might even try taking it in the early morning hours if the other two times don't work. Maybe 4:00am. That would effectively extend the natural period of melatonin exposure. Maybe you need to have your cycle retarded rather than advanced.
If you decide to experiment, please let us know what the results are.
- Scott
Posted by Cece on June 4, 2006, at 14:59:36
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 13:56:02
I posted a long post on this subject 5 years ago, you can find it at: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010302/msgs/55983.html
I guess it's in the archives now.Awhile after I posted, Dr. Bob contacted me to tell me that there was a writer from The New York Times who was writing an article on Reverse SAD and who would like to interview me. He NEVER violates our privacy by giving our contact info to anyone, so he forwarded her message with her contact info to me, and left it to me as to whether or not I wanted to contact her.
I did contact her, and a bit about my experience was included in her story, which you can find at:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C03E4DA103AF930A2575BC0A9649C8B63
I chose to remain anonymous, I am the person identified as "A designer in Northern California in her early 50's".As you'll read in her story, this is a new subject of research and of less interest to scientists than winter SAD since it affects fewer people. Her story also talks about different strategies people have used to deal with it.
And as you'll read in my post, my RSAD has improved immensely since I began finding better and better treatment for my bi-polar II disorder. Since 5 years ago, I've become pretty well stabilized and don't have the terrible and unpredictable BP mood swings. I still take a complicated combo of meds (my case was treatment resistant, took a long time, as in many years, to get under good control, and the different meds address different issues) but my primary mood stabilizer is Lamictal, 500mg/day, in the morning.
I'll be glad to lay out my whole regimen of meds if other people are interested, but as always, one size doesn't fit all!
I still don't like it when we get summer heat waves (more of them as global warming progresses- sh*t). I become somewhat enervated, I don't like the glaring sun, but I no longer become a dysfuntional basket case- hooray! Swimming helps me with my energy level- when I get around to it.
I'm glad that this thread has been picked up again. It's a reminder to me to go swimming more!
> This is often strange for people to believe, but I am the same way. My depression and anxiety hit a peak during the summer months, usually late July is my worst time. I can feel quite agitated and uncomfortable. I feel much *better* the rest of the year. Spring and Autumn being my favorite seasons.
>
> I sometimes dip a little bit in the winter too, around January or so, but it's easily alleviated with wake-and-light therapy. I haven't found anything that helps summertime blues, except to stay holed up in air-conditioned rooms with all the blinds drawn. :( I become agoraphobic. I feel like I am being held hostage for 4 months by the sun.
>
> I would love suggestions for overcoming summertime SAD.
>
> - Chris
>
Posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 17:54:28
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by SLS on June 4, 2006, at 14:35:19
> > > I would love suggestions for overcoming summertime SAD.
> >
> > You might look into manipulating your circadian rhythm by taking melatonin during the day rather than at night. You will need to experiment. Try taking it either in the morning or in the afternoon to see which is best. Of course, there is the potential for you to make things worse with one of these choices. I would try the afternoon first. It might be worth a try.
>
> You might even try taking it in the early morning hours if the other two times don't work. Maybe 4:00am. That would effectively extend the natural period of melatonin exposure. Maybe you need to have your cycle retarded rather than advanced.
>
> If you decide to experiment, please let us know what the results are.
>
>
> - Scott
I had wondered about melatonin. Thanks for the info.Hopefully my new antidepressant, Parnate, could be helpful. Either in terms of just being an antidepressant, or from increasing melatonin:
Murphy DL, Tamarkin L, Sunderland T, Garrick NA, Cohen RM (1986): Human plasma melatonin is elevated during treatment with the monoamine oxidase inhibitors clorgyline and tranylcypromine but not deprenyl. Psychiatry Res 17:119-127
Also, my understanding is that Summer SAD is correlated with bipolar, which I do have (the II variant), so perhaps there is a mood stabilizer (or two) that might help. I'll probably be evaluating something new this summer anyway, right now I'm looking at trying Lamictal again.
Either way I'll definitely let you all know the results! Today it has gotten to 92 here in Salt Lake City (33 Celsius). :-( It's going to be a long summer.
- Chris
Posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 17:58:42
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » Caedmon, posted by Cece on June 4, 2006, at 14:59:36
Cece, what a small world, I had read that article just today while looking up information!
I'm glad to hear you're feeling better. :)
> I'll be glad to lay out my whole regimen of meds if other people are interested, but as always, one size doesn't fit all!>
Sure, let us know. I'm curious.
- Chris
Posted by Rosebud on June 4, 2006, at 18:34:21
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » Cece, posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 17:58:42
I had found that article looking up info today, too! It is the best one I have found so far.
I see that there is some uncertainty as to whether heat or light is the problem. For me either one can cause problems.
I have read that it is very rare, but I have also read that it is probably more common than people think, but that many are not aware of the connection. High summer suicide and violence rates indicate it.
Posted by pulse on June 4, 2006, at 19:03:05
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Rosebud on June 4, 2006, at 18:34:21
i have summer sad also, and although there is supposedly a higher incedence of it with bipolar, i have unipolar depression/ mdd - "typical variety."
i do personally know one other woman who is also unipolar, like me, and who also has summer sad. she lives in houston - must be very rough for her there. she' in her 20's; i'm in my 50's.
both of us can recall having this since childhood. going to summer camp, NO WAY!
for both of us, it's the GLARING light AND the humidity.
i think feeling "assaulted by the light" and "being in summer jail "are 2 VERY apt ways of putting it.
*i'm primarily posting this because i think it's VERY important for folks to know that some with summer sad are NOT bipolar.*
pulse
Posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 19:53:13
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by pulse on June 4, 2006, at 19:03:05
> *i'm primarily posting this because i think it's VERY important for folks to know that some with summer sad are NOT bipolar.*>
My sister is not bipolar but she does get Summer SAD.
I think the latitude and/or climate could have to do with it. Certainly in my case I suspect it. We (both my sister and I) grew up in a desert town in Southern Utah. Hot and dry and sunny and hot and dry and sunny. Oh, and windy too. It was always so oppressive. We'd look forward to cooling rains and to the mild afternoons of late September. We still do.
- Chris
Posted by pulse on June 5, 2006, at 1:28:42
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Caedmon on June 4, 2006, at 19:53:13
yep chris, this is how i WELL know i could never live in - as my #1 example - arizona. egad, that sun is relentless; then add in their 'monsoon season' in july, with 127 degree heat, plus humidity worse than even here in our ohio summers - YUCK. no amount of $ could get me to live there. in truth, that very nearly caused me to pass out and i became very nauseous with blurred vision. felt very much lke the panic attacks i've not had in 20 yrs.
perhaps, oddly, i did not have much problem - if any - when i lived in new mexico for a yr. or so...santa fe. i think that was due to the fact that even when it reaches 90 degrees, there is nearly always a breeze of sorts ...or a short, truly awesome hail storm popping up, as if by magic...if only for 15 minutes.
regards,
pulse
Posted by Cece on June 6, 2006, at 1:15:00
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by pulse on June 5, 2006, at 1:28:42
I've been really interested to read everybody's posts- neither could I live in the southwest or someplace really seriously hot and glaring- the very thought makes me feel like a deer caught in headlights.
When I lived in southern California as a teenager, LA area, near the ocean, it was temperate year round, usually mid 60's to low 70's, with a nice breeze off the ocean. I was comfortable there. When I lived in Washington DC as a kid, there were summer thunderstorms that cooled and cleared the air. The humid hot summers were oppressive, but I was okay.
It wasn't until I moved to Davis, CA (inland CA) in my late teens, where it's unrelentingly hot and dry in the summer, that my RSAD really kicked into gear- and stayed even when I moved around to other places. Well, that's a time of life when bi-polar disorders often begin to manifest, and I think that was the case for me. I had my first (of two) breakdown at 24, and it was diagnosed as acute depressive anxiety, this was before BPII was identified.
Another subject that I think has some relevance here is light and dark. I started a thread on that one 6/13/02 called "Day is day, and night is night". In this modern world we live removed from the seasons and the times of the clock, we're expected to perform and be the same year round, we're supposed to stay up and be active after sunset and before sunrise, and that's just not the way the natural world works. Other living beings live by nature's rhythms, each species in its own relationship to it. I work with plants and I know that summer is a time of slow fruition, not a time of rapid movement and growth. I'm much much happier when I can slow down in summer.
So, Chris asked me to tell my med story.
Morning:
500mg Lamictal
300mg Neurontin (I find it to be a calming adjunct to the energizing Lamictal)
15mg Adderall (I don't officially have AHAD but do have focus and distraction problems, plus it's an AD)
Synthroid (I have an auto-immune thyroid disorder called Hashimoto's thyroiditis, and BTW, any thyroid condition can mimic any psych disorder)
Hormone replacement meds (I'm post-menopausal and made the decision to take HR despite the risks because it can help stabilize BP in women)Night:
900mg Neurontin
25mg Surmontil (a low dose of an old and not widely used TCA that some pdocs consider "atypical")
125mg Depakote (a sub-clinical dose, but it was the first mood stabilizer I tried, I'll never forget how it made me feel like an electrical charge had been lifted from the surface of my skin, and when I've gone off it entirely I've felt wierdly off-base).I take Xanax .25-.5mg PRN for anxiety, usually at night when I do, and every once in a rare while I'll take 12.5-2.5mg/2Xday Zyprexa for 1-2 days when I feel myself headed into a hypomanic swing- that little bit heads it off.
I also take 2-4000mg of Cod Liver oil in caps, various vitamins/minerals, and at bedtime I take Melatonin.
Posted by Caedmon on June 6, 2006, at 9:53:35
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Cece on June 6, 2006, at 1:15:00
> In this modern world we live removed from the seasons and the times of the clock, we're expected to perform and be the same year round, we're supposed to stay up and be active after sunset and before sunrise, and that's just not the way the natural world works. Other living beings live by nature's rhythms, each species in its own relationship to it.>
Cece, I think that is so true.
I appreciate you sharing your med info. :-)
- Chris
Posted by cecilia on June 7, 2006, at 19:12:32
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » Cece, posted by Caedmon on June 6, 2006, at 9:53:35
I HATE HATE HATE summer too. But I don't think I'd really call it reverse SAD, because I'm depressed year round. I just hate the heat and the glare of the sun and the long days. Cecilia
Posted by pulse on June 8, 2006, at 6:26:54
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by cecilia on June 7, 2006, at 19:12:32
i have actually been dxed with summer sad, along with my recurrent mdd.
we started having temps in the 90's here this year in may! (not a good sign at all!, as even in the hottest summers yet, usually no big worries til end of july, then all of august, and into september.) i'm still blaming al gore...
as soon as 90 degrees hit, i had to take my yearly precaution of turning my schedule completely around. i do my errands and shopping at 2-4 am. now we've had some very decent cool, rainy days & nights, but with emsam being so persnicity, i've been forced to mostly miss these beautiful days.
i realize i'm at least fortunate, unlike others, to be able to do this.
pulse
Posted by Donna Louise on June 11, 2006, at 19:23:34
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » cecilia, posted by pulse on June 8, 2006, at 6:26:54
Add me to the list of folks who get worse with depresseion in the summer. I have noticed this for some time and thought I might have some sort of reverse SAD but I did not know such a condition had been identified. So it is with great relief that I can stop expecting so much of myself in the summer. I always get so dismayed that I am not doing better or feeling like I am relapsing. I live in Fla., need I say more. I despise the time change when we get even more daylight at night. I never adjust to it all summer. On the other hand, I cannot tolerate the cold and get depressed with more than one day of gray weather so I must live in a place like Fla. I have not heard anyone else say this. That they get worse in the summer but can't tolerate cold or gray days. I guess I lose all the way around! No, not in Fla. we don't get too cold or have many gray days. And I LOVE Oct. always have. It is like a sigh of relief, like a long reign of oppression is over.
Donna
Posted by pulse on June 11, 2006, at 19:36:58
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by Donna Louise on June 11, 2006, at 19:23:34
boy, then you do get the double whammy. i could never live in fla., and am putting off a visit that i need to make down there.
i may be sorry about that sooner than later, but i must put my mental health first.i LOVE both as many grey or rainy days as possible in a row. that's why i'm thinking of moving to the seattle area = nirvana for me.
Posted by Donna Louise on June 11, 2006, at 19:47:35
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » Donna Louise, posted by pulse on June 11, 2006, at 19:36:58
> boy, then you do get the double whammy. i could never live in fla., and am putting off a visit that i need to make down there.
> i may be sorry about that sooner than later, but i must put my mental health first.
>
> i LOVE both as many grey or rainy days as possible in a row. that's why i'm thinking of moving to the seattle area = nirvana for me.
If you could make the trip to Fla right now, you would be here for a tropical storm which I love, very exciting, breaks up the awful monotony and I am something of an adrenaline junkie...donna
Posted by pulse on June 12, 2006, at 6:59:58
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 11, 2006, at 19:47:35
that reminds me of the exciting golfball-size or larger hail - for 15 minutes - then sun back out, not a cloud in sky - in new mexico. but, we nearly always had a breeze, even at 90+ degrees.
enjoy!
if you don't mind saying, what part of fla. are you in - north, mid, south - coastal or gulf-side? (info for the trip i need to make).
pulse
Posted by Donna Louise on June 12, 2006, at 9:47:54
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too!, posted by pulse on June 12, 2006, at 6:59:58
> that reminds me of the exciting golfball-size or larger hail - for 15 minutes - then sun back out, not a cloud in sky - in new mexico. but, we nearly always had a breeze, even at 90+ degrees.
>
> enjoy!
>
> if you don't mind saying, what part of fla. are you in - north, mid, south - coastal or gulf-side? (info for the trip i need to make).
>
> pulse
>
>
>
>No, I don't mind at all. I am in the middle of the state, north of Orlando. Half way between Daytona and Ocala. I live in the Ocala National Forest because I do do distance riding (on horses) and need the miles of trails at my disposal that won't be snatched up by developement.
We had a doosey of a storm come through at 5:30 this morning. Waiting on some more fun to come.donna
Posted by Rosebud on June 12, 2006, at 10:25:42
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 12, 2006, at 9:47:54
I don't believe I posted this info here.
Yesterday I got an email from a lady who finds EFT helpful for summer SAD symptoms.
Posted by Caedmon on June 12, 2006, at 22:54:17
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » Donna Louise, posted by pulse on June 11, 2006, at 19:36:58
> i LOVE both as many grey or rainy days as possible in a row. that's why i'm thinking of moving to the seattle area = nirvana for me.>
Me too. I will be moving to the Seattle area for this very reason. :-) (Technically Bellingham, twixt Seattle and Vancouver BC). Sadly not until September. For graduate school. Reverse SAD was a major factor in my decision.
- Chris
Posted by Cece on June 13, 2006, at 0:05:54
In reply to Re: Reverse SAD?, Weather, Meds - me too! » pulse, posted by Caedmon on June 12, 2006, at 22:54:17
I have thought of moving to the Pacific Northwest myself (from the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area) both because of climate and because it is sooo expensive to live here.
Let’s keep this thread going from time to time and check in on other people’s experiences- if enough of us move to that part of the world, we could start our own little RSAD support group! I’m not entirely kidding on that one- just be sure and check the box when you post that says “notify you of later follow-ups to this thread”. I was notified about jrw’s post, which was 5 years after my last post on this topic, so it really works!
One thing that’s similar for me to what some others have posted is that changes in weather, especially dramatic ones, especially storms, anytime of the year, energize me and pull me out of the doldrums.
One thing that’s different for me is that I like the long days of summer- I like the cooler (it gets cooler here in the evening even during hot spells) evenings when the light is softening, and I really enjoy being outside then.
So for me, it’s really about heat and glare. And oppressively smoggy and hazy days when the air is still also get to me, a breeze can make all the difference in my mood.
It’s dry here from Spring til Fall (Mediterranean climate) and the dry dustiness of Summer makes me antsy and nutsy. October is a relief for me not only because of the cooler weather, the feeling of change in the air, and the softening light, but because it means our rains will be coming soon and clearing the air. I was in Scotland last September and people kept apologizing to me for all the rain and clouds- I kept saying, “you don’t understand, I like it!”.
What I experience in Summer (mostly better since my meds got refined, but more activated this year by a lot of stress) is what I think is a mixed state kind of bi-polar, kind of a hypomanic depression.
> > i LOVE both as many grey or rainy days as possible in a row. that's why i'm thinking of moving to the seattle area = nirvana for me.>
>
> Me too. I will be moving to the Seattle area for this very reason. :-) (Technically Bellingham, twixt Seattle and Vancouver BC). Sadly not until September. For graduate school. Reverse SAD was a major factor in my decision.
>
> - Chris
>
>
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