![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Elroy on February 15, 2005, at 20:52:53
Wondering why there's such a lack of information on all of the relevant forums concerning cranial electrotherapy stimulation (CES)?
It is (supposedly) FDA approved for depression, anxiety and insomnia and appears to have had a considerable amount of clinical testing as to some degree of effectiveness.
Is it actually "politics in healing" simply in that the Big Pharms control the environment too strongly? Or did the FDA approve a "quack device" (highly, highly unusual for the FDA).
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Products/Educational/CES_Excerpt/Chapter_9/chapter_9.html
http://www.edgeeffect.org/cranial_electrical_stimulation.htm
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Technology/Protocol/Introduction_A/MET/Survey/MET_Protocol/Sample_Tx/Head_Pain/CES/ces.html
http://members.aol.com/bioelectric2002/mbrain.htmOr is it that people who use CES get better and have no use to be lurking these types of forums and jumping from onemed to another to another?
Is anyone aware of an association of CES practioners that one could research to find a CES qualified practioner? Personally, I wouldn't mind checking out that particular treatment protocol.
QUOTE - Research over the last 40 years indicates that CES:
- Restores balance between Neurotransmitters:[Serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine, GABA]
- Interferes with the HPA stress cycle
- Increases Natural Killer cell activity
- Reduces Cortisol
- Increases Serotonin uptake
- Increases Beta Endorphins
How does CES work?
A. Studies have demonstrated therapeutic effects associated with a proper balance of serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, GABA and endorphins. Research indicates that CES assists the brain in restoring neurochemical balance by stimulating the area of the hypothalamus, thus allowing the brain to function normally again.
What does research tell us about the effectiveness of CES and amino acid supplementation?
A. Evidence on CES efficacy can be linked to the use of computerized EEG's or topographical brain mapping. Serum, Cerebral Spinal Fluid and urine lab tests confirm increases in Serotonin, Dopamine, Beta-endorphins, GABA and a reduction in Cortisol (the stress hormone). These tests validate that CES use alters the abnormal electrophysiology associated with stress, as well as normalizing other dysfunctional brainwave patterns.
Evidence that amino acid supplementation restores neurotransmitter levels to a more normal level is based on over 20,000 lab studies.
A recent NDS study demonstrated a significant improvement in retention of neurotransmitters when CES was applied. This helps individuals reach and maintain optimal and balanced neurotransmitter levels in a more efficient manner.
END QUOTEElroy
Posted by franco neuro on February 15, 2005, at 22:09:21
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation, posted by Elroy on February 15, 2005, at 20:52:53
I read the "Edge Effect" book. I got it from a screwed up friend of mine who had already been to see the doc/author. This guy does the brain mapping stuff and i must say he has helped out my friend a lot so i went to see him about 6 weeks ago. Interesting (and expensive) experience. He said i have very low dopamine levels. He also wants me to start using the CES to help me sleep because that's been a huge problem for me. I haven't tried it yet but my friend says it does help him relax and he often falls asleep with it on. Now whether that's due to the CES forcing his brain into a delta wave electrical pattern (1-4 Hz i think it is?) or whether it just kind of helps to focus your attention so your mind doesn't start going over every bad choice you've ever made in your life i don't know. These things seem to make sense in theory but it's hard to come up with any really hard science on them. I have an appointment to see the guy next week and i want to get the ball rolling. I didn't buy the CES the last time i was there because he wants $300 for it and i'm sure i can get the same one on-line cheaper. Of course having no dopamine in my head i haven't managed to muster up the motivation to go searching for it on-line either. I'm basically shot...
Posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 12:08:44
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation » Elroy, posted by franco neuro on February 15, 2005, at 22:09:21
Very interesting. I just spoke with a rep from a CES product called Alpha-Stim and they want $495 for their basic product and like $895 for their advanced model (which also works on pain). The basic model does, however, do all of the regular CES functioning. Do you have the information on the type of model that Dr Braverman was offering for sale?
Please keep me updated on how this works out for you (and your friend for that matter). I have problems with both anxiety and depression (started out almost exclusively anxiety and depression gradually added in to the picture).
Right now my psych doc wants to have me try an EMDR therapist and possible a different AD, but this CES concept seems very promising.
Elroy
> I read the "Edge Effect" book. I got it from a screwed up friend of mine who had already been to see the doc/author. This guy does the brain mapping stuff and i must say he has helped out my friend a lot so i went to see him about 6 weeks ago. Interesting (and expensive) experience. He said i have very low dopamine levels. He also wants me to start using the CES to help me sleep because that's been a huge problem for me. I haven't tried it yet but my friend says it does help him relax and he often falls asleep with it on. Now whether that's due to the CES forcing his brain into a delta wave electrical pattern (1-4 Hz i think it is?) or whether it just kind of helps to focus your attention so your mind doesn't start going over every bad choice you've ever made in your life i don't know. These things seem to make sense in theory but it's hard to come up with any really hard science on them. I have an appointment to see the guy next week and i want to get the ball rolling. I didn't buy the CES the last time i was there because he wants $300 for it and i'm sure i can get the same one on-line cheaper. Of course having no dopamine in my head i haven't managed to muster up the motivation to go searching for it on-line either. I'm basically shot...
Posted by franco neuro on February 16, 2005, at 14:44:31
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 12:08:44
Come to think of it i have checked out that Alpha Stim site. That's right they have CES and TENS units. The one Dr. Braverman uses is pretty simple. It's about the size of a pack of cigerettes and uses one 9v battery. I think it only has the one .5 Hz frequency for delta wave generation. Some of the fancier models have a couple of different frequencies. But for sleep it's definitely supposed to have that .5 Hz frequency. There's a dial to adjust the strength of the current and a little indicator light and that's pretty much it. His unit uses the sticky pads whereas some of the others use ear clips. They all may be able to use either i'm not sure. There's some controversy as to which are the best contact points. Braverman seems to think one pad on the forehead and the other on the left wrist is the best placement. That's the way my friend has been using his. I don't know i may just shell out the $300 and get his. Unless i can get the manufacturers name off of the one my friend has and try to get it directly from them. Here's a site i found that sells a few different models from basic to high end. The one on the link looks a lot like the one braverman uses. (Without the Health Pax label of course or the case.) This may be the exact same one. Same price too. I need to find out who the manufacturer is. I'll keep you posted...
http://www.elixa.com/estim/HealthPax.htm
Posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 21:19:32
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation, posted by franco neuro on February 16, 2005, at 14:44:31
Yes, I checked out the Elixa site also. I noted that they use multiple frequencies (I believe that one is for insomnia effects and one is for the brain effects - anxiety, depression, and some pain relief).
I spoke with a rep from Aplha-Stim this AM and they advised that they sell their units on a 30-day basis. If you're not satisfied with it after 30-day you return it and get back all but a 10% re-stocking fee (and your shipping). So in effect, it's like a "rental" type process.
While they have a real advanced model, their base unit is $495, which is higher than most places but then they do have the "try-it-out" protocol.
Yes, please keep me posted as to what goes on with this. Will do same at my end!
Elroy
> Come to think of it i have checked out that Alpha Stim site. That's right they have CES and TENS units. The one Dr. Braverman uses is pretty simple. It's about the size of a pack of cigerettes and uses one 9v battery. I think it only has the one .5 Hz frequency for delta wave generation. Some of the fancier models have a couple of different frequencies. But for sleep it's definitely supposed to have that .5 Hz frequency. There's a dial to adjust the strength of the current and a little indicator light and that's pretty much it. His unit uses the sticky pads whereas some of the others use ear clips. They all may be able to use either i'm not sure. There's some controversy as to which are the best contact points. Braverman seems to think one pad on the forehead and the other on the left wrist is the best placement. That's the way my friend has been using his. I don't know i may just shell out the $300 and get his. Unless i can get the manufacturers name off of the one my friend has and try to get it directly from them. Here's a site i found that sells a few different models from basic to high end. The one on the link looks a lot like the one braverman uses. (Without the Health Pax label of course or the case.) This may be the exact same one. Same price too. I need to find out who the manufacturer is. I'll keep you posted...
>
> http://www.elixa.com/estim/HealthPax.htm
>
>
>
>
Posted by franco neuro on February 18, 2005, at 13:10:02
In reply to Re: CES » franco neuro, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 21:19:32
Haven't forgotten about you El. Still trying to get in touch with my wacky friend. Did you check the link i attached with my last post. If you did than that unit that popped up is the exact one that Dr. Braverman uses. Two setting, .5 Hz and 100 Hz. The elixer people want $295 for it. Plus a few extra bucks for pads/clips etc. Of course it probably cost $10 to manufacture. I must say it might be nice to have a unit that plugs in because they say the battery life is only 20 hours on that unit. But it is nice and portable. Will keep you posted.
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 16:37:29
In reply to Re: CES, posted by franco neuro on February 18, 2005, at 13:10:02
Yes, checked out that link and have been in e-mail comms with rep from that company. Also have e-mailed Dr. Braverman's clinic to see if they know - or can find out - if there are any clinics (or physicians, etc.) in my area (NE Ohio) that use the CES therapy. Obviously I would like a set-up where I could get insurance reimbursement for a unit.... but, if necessary - if my research continues to look promising - may end up purchasing one out-of-pocket. Still need a lot of info first. I noted that the basic Alpha-Stim unit cost $495, but if you don't like it at up to 30 days that you can return it for a 10% stocking fee (plus shipping). So it turns out to be about $60 for a 30-day rental to see if it works for you or not!
I got a copy (again) of the book "The Edge Effect" by Dr. Eric Braverman and read it thoroughly - and re-read it. He explains tons of things about the brain's primary neurotransmitters that I cannot come close to summarizing. It's clear after reading his book why many people won't respond to SSRI drugs, or will, but only for a time period, etc.
SSRIs are - obviously - designed to work on serotonin deficiencies. But the fact is that you might not have a serotonin deficiency, but rather a dopamine deficiency, or a GABA deficiency, etc. Or may have a primarily GABA deficiency with a mild serotonin deficiency.
Plus an SSRI is a chemical that's designed to maintain / protect the limited levels of serotonin that you have (if you are a serotonin deficient depressor) rather than increase your levels of serotonin. In his book he lists serotonin boosters, GABA boosters, etc., etc. that are supplements rather than pharmaceuticals. As an MD type he is very definitely NOT against the use of drugs when indicated, just makes it clear that he prefers to gets his clients off drugs and onto supplements as soon as possible.
As noted, Dr. Braverman mentions the CES technology in his book and speaks quite highly of it, and apparently uses it in his own practice at his clinics.
Some more info on CES:
*************************************************
http://www.elixa.com/CES/CESfaq.htm
The objective of CES is to return neurotransmitter activity to pre-stress homeostasis. Once attained, CES has no additional effect. Serving as a training wheels of sorts, CES helps you reprogram yourself... Along the way, you will intuitively come to know when CES is needed and when it is to be put aside. You alone will become the determinant of use, as regards both frequency and duration... It is hypothesized that CES acts by direct stimulation of the brain in the hypothalamic area with specific electronic frequencies. Such stimulation causes the brain to manufacture various neurohormones that effect ones moods and emotions as well as ones cognitive capabilities back to a level of pre-stress homeostasis... Western drug medicine relies primarily on chemistry to heal and control pain. Microcurrent electrical therapy (MET) is based on the concept that the biophysics underlying the chemistry also plays a significant role in regulating bodily processes. Using waveforms at a level of current similar to the body's own, MET bridges cellular communications helping reestablish the normal electrical flow. The concept of a bioelectrical control system is common to every form of healing ever developed in recorded history, except for drug medicine... CES is not to be confused with either ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) which uses a much greater amount of electricity to induce traumatic shock, or aversion therapy both of which are based on discomfort. With CES you should experience no discomfort whatsoever...
**********************************************
Here's the part that I found to be very interesting from this web site (and seems to indicate to me that the BEST approach might very well be a combination of Dr. Braverman's supplementation programs with neurotransmitter boosters combined with CES technology):
"There is a synergistic relationship between nutrients and CES. Think of the brain as a car battery, some cells of which may not be fully functioning. To achieve that end one needs both water and the trickle charge--This is analogous to the brain, amino acids and the CES. The brain uses amino acids as the raw materials, the building blocks or precursors with which to build its neurotransmitters. It is necessary for these amino acids to be present in the bloodstream in adequate amounts for the maximum impact/benefit of CES to be realized. These precursors, if present will be taken up and synthesized into neurohormones much more effectively when CES is added. These neurotransmitter precursor amino acids can be taken orally as food supplements. To experience an even more dramatic impact of CES, it should be done in conjunction with amino acid supplements, especially in those areas in which one is deficient. Ideally, you might first test to determine the nature of the neurotransmitter deficiency and then develop a regimen supplementing your diet with specific amino acids known to be precursors to them."
************************************************
Some more informative links:
http://www.edgeeffect.org/
http://www.edgeeffect.org/cranial_electrical_stimulation.htm
http://www.edgeeffect.org/brain_electrical_activity_mappin.htm> Haven't forgotten about you El. Still trying to get in touch with my wacky friend. Did you check the link i attached with my last post. If you did than that unit that popped up is the exact one that Dr. Braverman uses. Two setting, .5 Hz and 100 Hz. The elixer people want $295 for it. Plus a few extra bucks for pads/clips etc. Of course it probably cost $10 to manufacture. I must say it might be nice to have a unit that plugs in because they say the battery life is only 20 hours on that unit. But it is nice and portable. Will keep you posted.
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 19:39:16
In reply to Re: CES, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 16:37:29
I initially started looking into Brain Wave Generators and Binaural Beat Brainwaves as relates to anxiety, depression and pain control. In researching that and downloading some stuff, I came across some interesting information on a technology called "Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation".
While finding some interesting results with Brain Wave generator effects (Binaural Beat Brainwaves), I am becoming more convinced that there's definitely something to the CES technology. CES is an FDA registered treatment modality that is FDA approved for anxiety, depression, and some types of chronic pain.
Many people will confuse this with Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT), or with "Transcranial Magnetic Simulation" but CES is a completely different therapy from either of those.
See (night repeat some links, sorry about that!):
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Technology/Protocol/Introduction_A/MET
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Technology/Protocol/Introduction_A/ME
http://members.aol.com/bioelectric2002/website.htm
http://neurodynamicstrategies.com/ces.html
http://www.excel.net/%7Ejaguar/ces-info.html
http://www.drdebe.com/CRANIAL.htm
This particular following segment deals with pain therapy rather than anxiety or depression, but shows such a strong response that I felt it to be an excellent example. Remember, CES is technically approved by the FDA as treatment for "anxiety, depression, and insomnia", but more and more newer studies are researching it for pain relief purposes.
http://www.harborside.com/~aspenmed/page10.htm
QUOTE: Archives of Otolaryngology, 109(6):382-383, 1983... This is an early report of Alpha-Stim results on severe intractable cancer pain that failed to achieve relief with "heavy medication" and surgery conducted by the Division of Otolaryngology, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, and the Veterans Administration Medical Center in Cleveland, Ohio. The author states that the 3 cases anecdotally presented are representative of similar cases treated by Alpha-Stim. without exception, in every case there was a positive effect in decreasing pain. Objectively, these patients could be followed up by the amount of pain medication they required... In case 1, a 58 year old man had squamous cell carcinoma of the laryngeopharynx staged at T4N2M0, full course radiation therapy and radical neck dissection. After failing to achieve pain relief with 7 mg of morphine sulfate every 4 hours along with various sedatives, he achieved complete relief without medication at all for one week following 3 daily, 10 minute Alpha-Stim treatments of 500 microamps at 0.5 Hz, and then was maintained pain free with Alpha-Stim treatments every 3 days for 1 minute. Case 2, a 54 year old man who also had a neck dissection and radiation for a T3NOMO lesion of the larynx, and a primary squamous cell tumor of the left lung, required a combination of codeine, zomepirac sodium (Zomax), and amitriptyline hydrochloride (Elavil), which provided little relief. After 6 minutes of Alpha-Stim treatment he had complete relief of pain for 50 hours, after which further treatment caused the pain to disappear again. Case 3 was a 59 year old man who had a T4N1MO squamous cell carcinoma of the base of the tongue and supraglottis. Codeine and meperidine failed to completely control his severe pain radiating to both ears. The pain was completely relieved for 8 hours after 12 minutes of Alpha-Stim treatment. The second treatment pain relief lasted 24 hours. The author noted that the longevity of the results was especially encouraging. In every case pain relief lasted at least 8 hours, and in case 2, the effect lasted more than 3 weeks. There was no indication of side effects, and usually there was no sensation of the electrical stimulus. The positive results are unquestionable, and this form of electrical stimulation should not be confused with TENS.
http://darwinpharmacy.com/ref-anxiety-008/anxiety-008-research-abs3.99.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieveids=11455071&dopt=Abstract>;
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Products/Educational/CES_Excerpt/Chapter_9/chapter_9.html
In the book "The Edge Effect", Dr. Eric Braverman discussed brain enhancers and specifically brain neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine, etc.). Overall a very good book - and it answered a lot of lingering questions that I had. Would strongly, strongly recommend the reading of this book!
What I found very interesting was that Dr. Braverman mentions the CES technology three different times in his book (all in a very positive vein) and apparently uses it in his own private practice also.
http://www.edgeeffect.org/cranial_electrical_stimulation.htm
Posted by franco neuro on February 20, 2005, at 11:50:47
In reply to Re: CES, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 16:37:29
Elroy,
I probably didn't make it clear but I'm currently seeing Dr. Braverman! It's only been 2 months and I've only been there a couple of times so far. I'll try to briefly fill you in. My friend with the CES device. Let's call him Ron. I met this guy and his girlfiend in the local Vitamin Shoppe about 2 years ago. We started talking about mercury poisoning and became fast friends. This poor bastard has been on disabilty for about 8 years. He's 36 and if you saw him he looks as strong as an ox. But he's had all kinds of problems. He was diagnosed with chronic fatique. This guy had travelled all over the country to some of the best known CF docs and had even gone to the Mayo clinic. He had PET scans and MRI's and all kinds of exotic blood tests. All to no avail. Last spring he was in his car listening to the radio and on comes a commercial about PATH medical center and Dr. Braverman. He buys "The Edge Effect" and decides to go see him. The first time you go you spend about 8 hours there and do all kinds of written personality tests and give a lot of blood and do the brain mapping and finally consult with Dr. B. Anyway, (sorry about the run on paragraph) Dr. Braverman tells him that his main problem is that he's bi-polar. Ron is like i considered that but I don't believe it. Braverman puts him on Lamictal. Ron says he took it before. But of course like a lot of bi-polars he didn't stay with it. Braverman tells him he has to take it exactly as he prescribes and keep taking it. To cut to the chase it's been 7 months and the guy says he feels better than he has in 10 years. Not 100% but close. So I baught the book. Read it. And went. I'm hoping he can do the same for me. We'll see...
Posted by Elroy on February 21, 2005, at 18:41:21
In reply to Re: CES, posted by franco neuro on February 20, 2005, at 11:50:47
Oh ho!
That does sound interesting... Well, here's hoping that you have at least as good of results as "Ron" did!
One of the things that impressed me with Dr. Braverman was his attitude (in the book) that pharm meds are quite often necessary... but that it is his goal to get patients off of pharm meds as soon as feasible and use supplements (neurotransmitter boosters), etc., as much as possible.
I think that is one area where the CES unit might very well come in to very positive effect. With the CES unit balancing the "electronic wavelengths" of the brain and balancing neurotransmitters, and the neurotransmitter boosters providing the fuel, it seems that an actual cure is much more likely.
Would nice to see him keep expanding his clinics... like something into NE Ohio. Well, if you get the opportunity, see if they know of any MDs in NE Ohio who follows the "Braverman Philosophy"... :)
Either way, keep me posted on how things go with him!
Elroy
> Elroy,
>
> I probably didn't make it clear but I'm currently seeing Dr. Braverman! It's only been 2 months and I've only been there a couple of times so far. I'll try to briefly fill you in. My friend with the CES device. Let's call him Ron. I met this guy and his girlfiend in the local Vitamin Shoppe about 2 years ago. We started talking about mercury poisoning and became fast friends. This poor bastard has been on disabilty for about 8 years. He's 36 and if you saw him he looks as strong as an ox. But he's had all kinds of problems. He was diagnosed with chronic fatique. This guy had travelled all over the country to some of the best known CF docs and had even gone to the Mayo clinic. He had PET scans and MRI's and all kinds of exotic blood tests. All to no avail. Last spring he was in his car listening to the radio and on comes a commercial about PATH medical center and Dr. Braverman. He buys "The Edge Effect" and decides to go see him. The first time you go you spend about 8 hours there and do all kinds of written personality tests and give a lot of blood and do the brain mapping and finally consult with Dr. B. Anyway, (sorry about the run on paragraph) Dr. Braverman tells him that his main problem is that he's bi-polar. Ron is like i considered that but I don't believe it. Braverman puts him on Lamictal. Ron says he took it before. But of course like a lot of bi-polars he didn't stay with it. Braverman tells him he has to take it exactly as he prescribes and keep taking it. To cut to the chase it's been 7 months and the guy says he feels better than he has in 10 years. Not 100% but close. So I baught the book. Read it. And went. I'm hoping he can do the same for me. We'll see...
Posted by franco neuro on February 21, 2005, at 22:13:36
In reply to Re: CES » franco neuro, posted by Elroy on February 21, 2005, at 18:41:21
Oh no indeed! I have to say I really liked the book too. I keep going back to it and I've tried getting pretty much everyone I know to take the tests. And to my surprise a couple of them actually did!
As you probably saw on his site he is into supplements and has his own, but he definitely understands that sometimes you need the hard stuff. It's all about getting the right meds.
I feel like it's sink or swim with this guy. I'm burned out on docs. I feel like I've aged 30 years in the last 3. I'm totally burned out. I felt something starting to happen 6 or 7 years ago. I lost the ability to sleep. I started getting a strange weak feeling in my left foot. Also a general weak feeling in my legs and on my left side. MRI was neg. Tried a couple of meds and settled on Elavil because it helped with pain and knocked me out at night. Took it for almost 5 years but had to keep upping the dose and still felt like I was going down hill. I stopped it 2 years ago and it felt like the bottom dropped out. I haven't been the same since.
I've done a lot of research during these past 2 years and learned a lot of stuff I wish I knew before I started taking any meds. I had just started taking tyrosine and finding that it helped some with my symptoms when I got Braverman's book. I really think the dopamine (and/or norepinephrine) could be it. He said a "normal" brain voltage should be between 10 and 20 and mine came back at 3.26!
Dopamine is a huge deal, particularly in men. There is a lot of interplay between it an the sex hormones and androgens. Also, tyrosine is used to make thyroid hormone and I went back over blood tests for the past ten years and my TSH has been higher the past few years so he wants me taking some thyroid hormones. No wonder I HATE the cold. (Damn snowstorm!) I should've been poppin' that tyrosine for years. Before I burned out. But who knew...
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 22, 2005, at 16:11:05
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation, posted by Elroy on February 15, 2005, at 20:52:53
> Wondering why there's such a lack of information on all of the relevant forums concerning cranial electrotherapy stimulation (CES)?
My first impression of this therapy was in the form of heightened sensitivity of my BS detector. However, it appears that there may be something to this protocol:
http://www.healingpeople.com/ht/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=152
I'd be very interested in hearing of any person's experience with one of these devices.
> It is (supposedly) FDA approved for depression, anxiety and insomnia and appears to have had a considerable amount of clinical testing as to some degree of effectiveness.
With respect to FDA approval, I'd like to make clear that this type of device is approved only because a substantially equivalent device was already in use prior to the enactment of medical device regulations in 1976. As such, the vendors of these devices only need to show that their product is not a novel type of device, and they circumvent proper oversight via a grandfather clause loophole. These devices are Class 3, which have the greatest likelihood of adverse effects or injury to the patient. That said, it's hard to tell just what these devices do, let alone how they could hurt.
Here's what the FDA has to say about Class 3 devices:
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/devadvice/3132.htmlLar
Posted by Elroy on February 22, 2005, at 22:19:06
In reply to Re: CES, posted by franco neuro on February 21, 2005, at 22:13:36
Couldn't agree with you more. My situation has been not near as long, but compounded by so many additional side effects. Severe anxiety turned into (very quickly, within just a couple of weeks) hypogonadism, severe tinnitus, severe insomnia, lack of motivation, severe peripheral neuropathy, etc. Within a couple of months severe depression was added into the mix (jeez, I wonder why?).
I took the Braverman Test (in the book), and it showed that I had a Dopamine Dominance (really tied with a GABA Dominance but the Dopamine wins out). The second part of the test showed that I have a deficiency really in all of the areas - except serotonin! - but especially in Dopamine Deficiency followed by Acethlcholine Deficiency and almost tied then by GABA deficiency.
What's weird is that (number one) is that you would think that the Dopamine boosters would increase my anxiety! And (number two) many of the symptoms that I have (tinnitus and peripheral neuropathy / parenthesia) are stated as being due to GABA / serotonin deficiencies!!!???
Anyway, your information brought me to an early point that I raised in another thread. What about the employment of the med Selegiline (low-dose, 5mg to no more than 10 mg) combined with low-dose DLPA amino acid and B6? Seems like that would provide some depression relief and a degree of pain relief. It could also be combined with Lyrica for anti-anxiety and some serious anti-pain effects. Seems like that would address dopamine and GABA levels primarily, with some minor serotonin effects (from what I can gather). Would like for my psych doc to start with me on the first combo and then - if anxiety still a problem, to replace the current Xanax with the Lyrica....
Still giantly interested in the CES devices - am looking at a used one right now (my insurance won't cover them)...
> Oh no indeed! I have to say I really liked the book too. I keep going back to it and I've tried getting pretty much everyone I know to take the tests. And to my surprise a couple of them actually did!
>
> As you probably saw on his site he is into supplements and has his own, but he definitely understands that sometimes you need the hard stuff. It's all about getting the right meds.
>
> I feel like it's sink or swim with this guy. I'm burned out on docs. I feel like I've aged 30 years in the last 3. I'm totally burned out. I felt something starting to happen 6 or 7 years ago. I lost the ability to sleep. I started getting a strange weak feeling in my left foot. Also a general weak feeling in my legs and on my left side. MRI was neg. Tried a couple of meds and settled on Elavil because it helped with pain and knocked me out at night. Took it for almost 5 years but had to keep upping the dose and still felt like I was going down hill. I stopped it 2 years ago and it felt like the bottom dropped out. I haven't been the same since.
>
> I've done a lot of research during these past 2 years and learned a lot of stuff I wish I knew before I started taking any meds. I had just started taking tyrosine and finding that it helped some with my symptoms when I got Braverman's book. I really think the dopamine (and/or norepinephrine) could be it. He said a "normal" brain voltage should be between 10 and 20 and mine came back at 3.26!
>
> Dopamine is a huge deal, particularly in men. There is a lot of interplay between it an the sex hormones and androgens. Also, tyrosine is used to make thyroid hormone and I went back over blood tests for the past ten years and my TSH has been higher the past few years so he wants me taking some thyroid hormones. No wonder I HATE the cold. (Damn snowstorm!) I should've been poppin' that tyrosine for years. Before I burned out. But who knew...
>
>
Posted by Elroy on February 22, 2005, at 22:27:19
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on February 22, 2005, at 16:11:05
Good to hear from you... have read a number of your posts in doing my various researches.
I was very skeptical myself also - another Quack gadget was my first thought - but then as I read more and more, I got to thinking.... hmmmm.
What I have found interesting is that some insurance companies are in fact starting to approve CES devices - but mainly for pain control purposes. The one rep advised me that he felt that was because medical MDs have been more pro-active than psych docs in getting that approval.
A rep from one of the companies (Alpha-Stim) sent me the name of one doc in my area who uses the device (as far as who they have sold to) - he is about an hour away. And he is a medical doc and not a psych doc.
In fact, if you e-mail Alpha-Stim, they will send you a major packet of material on their product (they are probably the top of the line model - at least as far as costs go!).
I have also been very impressed by the book "The Edge Effect" by Dr. Braverman as relates to explaining brain neurotransmitters, etc. and was quite surprised to find out that he favorably mentions CES in his book... AND that he uses the CES devices in his practice.
The only problem that I have with Dr. Braverman is that he doesn't have any clinics in NE Ohio!
> > Wondering why there's such a lack of information on all of the relevant forums concerning cranial electrotherapy stimulation (CES)?
>
> My first impression of this therapy was in the form of heightened sensitivity of my BS detector. However, it appears that there may be something to this protocol:
>
> http://www.healingpeople.com/ht/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=152
>
> I'd be very interested in hearing of any person's experience with one of these devices.
>
> > It is (supposedly) FDA approved for depression, anxiety and insomnia and appears to have had a considerable amount of clinical testing as to some degree of effectiveness.
>
> With respect to FDA approval, I'd like to make clear that this type of device is approved only because a substantially equivalent device was already in use prior to the enactment of medical device regulations in 1976. As such, the vendors of these devices only need to show that their product is not a novel type of device, and they circumvent proper oversight via a grandfather clause loophole. These devices are Class 3, which have the greatest likelihood of adverse effects or injury to the patient. That said, it's hard to tell just what these devices do, let alone how they could hurt.
>
> Here's what the FDA has to say about Class 3 devices:
> http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/devadvice/3132.html
>
> Lar
Posted by Elroy on February 23, 2005, at 19:30:48
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on February 22, 2005, at 16:11:05
Some other research info to pass on to you (or anyone else also interested in this device).
General info at:
http://www.alpha-stim.com/What_s_New/Press/Stress/stress.html
Lots of research at this link:
http://alpha-stim.com/Information/Technology/Research/Index/index.html
Some testimonials through here:
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001339b&sp-f=iso-8859-1&sp-q=severe+AND+depression&Search=Search
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001339b&sp-f=iso-8859-1&sp-q=severe+AND+anxiety&Search=SearchGranted I prefer 3rd party site testimonials (like through support boards, forums, etc., kind of like this one... but the info just seemingly isn't there)... I usually turn to "RemedyFind.com" web site frequently for user observations, but was surprised to find that CES devices were even listed there at all. They have Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (rTMS) listed, but that's a completely different technology - which did, BTW, get an overall decent review from its raters (for Depression).
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=3073
So wonder what's the deal? Not that much review info out there as far as user opinions because it's quack-crap? If that was the case, you'd think that there would be quite a bit of info out there saying that as there would be a lot of users still looking for relief. Or could it possibly be that users found the relief being sought - and simply moved on with their lives (i.e., aren't hawking boards such as this one :) ????)....
That reminds me. There was a poster by the user name of "Pseudonym" (I believe) who used to post quite frequently and who was getting into taking low-dose selegiline combined with low-dose DLPA and B6 (as I recall). He had a really great last posting (at least the last one that I ran across)... Basically something to the effect I just spelled out.... "Sorry I haven't been around lately, the combo has been working great and I'm getting on with my life rather than hawking these boards...."
I loved that, it was great. Would just be nice to see that same posting on every other mental health support forum, RemedyFind, etc., for those like us who are still searching!
Anyway, one of the other big deals - to me - about CES technology is some indicators that it reduces cortisol levels and possibly "re-sets" the HPA Axis.
http://neurodynamicstrategies.com/ces.html
QUOTE:
Research over the last 40 years indicates that CES:
- Restores balance between Neurotransmitters:[Serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine, GABA]
- Interferes with the HPA stress cycle
- Increases Natural Killer cell activity
- Reduces Cortisol
- Increases Serotonin uptake
- Increases Beta Endorphinshttp://www.altered-states.net/barry/newsletter181/
QUOTE: As with a number of medicines, the mechanism of action (how it works) of CES is not fully understood. Research has led to the hypothesis that it has a mild effect on the hypothalmic area of the brain. Researchers also have noticed rapid increases in serotonin, also associated with relaxation and calmness, and decreases in cortisol, one of the primary stress-related biochemicals. Interestingly, CES also increases levels of norepinephrine and dopamine, both associated with alertness and feelings of pleasure. This may be why so many CES users report feeling both relaxed and alert. END QUOTE
I am convinced that - in my case - there is some type of connection between the high cortisol levels (with an out-of-kilter HPA Axis) and the anxiety and the depression and the plethora of physical symptoms. Still not sure what is causing what and what is being caused by what... but convinved that there's a connection. Also convinced that since it seems to be some type of a closed-loop, negative-feedback system that it is a situation where all elements have to be simultaneously addressed as they are simply feeding off of each other (the high cortisol keeps the anxiety levels up which increases the pain of the peripheral neuropathy which makes the depression worse which heightens the tinnitus symptoms which increases the anxiety which keeps the cortisol levels elevated which.... well, you get the point).
Elroy
P.S. Interesting third-party clinical trial involving pain, anxiety, depression effects on females going through breat cancer chemo at:
http://research.nursing.virginia.edu/ces/IP.htm
Apparently study is either still in start-up phase or continuing....
Elroy
> > Wondering why there's such a lack of information on all of the relevant forums concerning cranial electrotherapy stimulation (CES)?
>
> My first impression of this therapy was in the form of heightened sensitivity of my BS detector. However, it appears that there may be something to this protocol:
>
> http://www.healingpeople.com/ht/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=152
>
> I'd be very interested in hearing of any person's experience with one of these devices.
>
> > It is (supposedly) FDA approved for depression, anxiety and insomnia and appears to have had a considerable amount of clinical testing as to some degree of effectiveness.
>
> With respect to FDA approval, I'd like to make clear that this type of device is approved only because a substantially equivalent device was already in use prior to the enactment of medical device regulations in 1976. As such, the vendors of these devices only need to show that their product is not a novel type of device, and they circumvent proper oversight via a grandfather clause loophole. These devices are Class 3, which have the greatest likelihood of adverse effects or injury to the patient. That said, it's hard to tell just what these devices do, let alone how they could hurt.
>
> Here's what the FDA has to say about Class 3 devices:
> http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/devadvice/3132.html
>
> Lar
Posted by franco neuro on February 24, 2005, at 14:30:16
In reply to Re: CES » franco neuro, posted by Elroy on February 22, 2005, at 22:19:06
I've been out of the loop a couple of days. My computer crashed and I stopped taking my .5mg of klonopin a couple of days ago. I was taking it for sleep but it was making me more depressed. Now, of course, I haven't slept in 3 days. Damn this sucks!
Man you sound a lot like me...except I knew I was heading for a crash for a long time. I even get the tinitus too! But only in my left ear. To be honest with you I'd rather have it both ears. Hypogonadism also. Which, of course, is always the most distressing thing for a guy. You're right...how could we not be depressed!
I had to postpone my appt. with Dr. Barverman until next week. I've been considering selegiline too. I mentioned it to him the last time I was there. It's one of a rather short list of options. I'm also a little worried about the dopamine agonists making anxiety and insomnia worse. I also worry because I get a lot of muscle twitches and am afraid wellbutrin might push me into seizure-ville. But to be honest I don't even care. I'm going to try it anyway. The thing is we all react differently to these meds. Maybe the people who feel over-stimulated by the pro-dopamine meds. didn't have a dopamine difficiency to begin with. By reading through a lot of these posts I've found that some people actually start sleeping better when they take them. Last night I was rolling around unable to sleep and I got up at 4:30 and popped one of Braverman's brain energy supplements (300mg DLPA/200mg l-tyrosine/75mg rhodiola rosea/60mg methionine/2mg octacosanol) along with 500mg tyrosine, my multi, 100mg Alpha Lipoic Acid and 50mg B6. I've found that this actually helps me sleep better. So maybe if dopamine is the problem, boosting it will help with energy and sleep.
When I took the test in his book I came out: 1.GABA 2.Acetylcholine 3.Dopamine 4.Seratonin. I came out with deficiancies in all of them. But I figure if your really low in any, and are feeling rotten, you're gonna come out pretty deficient across the board. Before I got his book I had blood levels checked which showed me low in everything except epinephrine and (oddly enough) dopamine. Although I was barely within "normal" range for dopamine. But Braverman says blood tests are too unreliable.
I think you're exactly right that a dopamine agonist/re-uptake inhibitor and an anti-convulsant type gabaergic (Lyrica/Neurontin) along with tyrosine, DLPA and plenty of B6 might be the way to go. I think the gabaergic anti-convulsants produce a deeper more natural sleep and less of a "downer" effect than the benzodiazipines. At least in my case in regards to Neurontin vs. Xanax/Klonopin.
Hey what do you know! My Pathroid (Braverman's thyroid formula) just arrived via Fedex. I'll start popping them first thing tomorrow morning. God...what the hell happened to me?
Posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 20:40:39
In reply to Re: CES » Elroy, posted by franco neuro on February 24, 2005, at 14:30:16
RE: I'm also a little worried about the dopamine agonists making anxiety and insomnia worse.
My exact fear also. In fact, it's a tremendous fear, as I had anxiety first - and it was very severe - and the depression kind of tagged along in much later.
But then I get to thinking that if I have added anxiety I'll take some extra Xanax and if the anxiety continues I'll stop the Selegiline... plus some postings have indicated that 10mg of Selegiline and a reduced dose of DLPA (say 250mg instead of 500mg or even 1000mg that some take) does a great job of reducing / eliminating the anxiety aspects and in fact that adjusted combo creates an anti-anxiety effect.... from what I gather, the selegiline (at those dosage levels) doesn't so much create dopamine (etc.) - though it does to an extent - as it greatly prolongs the effects of the DLPA, not only dopamine raising effects, but specifically PEA also (and especially - PEA has an extremely limited half-life, like maybe a minute, and the Selegiline stretches it out for hours or something like that).
See:
http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96388.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96497.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/95949.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030130/msgs/138798.htmlAlso, might want to consider adding L-theanine in with the combo as it is very good for anti-anxiety."
RE: The thing is we all react differently to these meds. Maybe the people who feel over-stimulated by the pro-dopamine meds. didn't have a dopamine difficiency to begin with. By reading through a lot of these posts I've found that some people actually start sleeping better when they take them.
Also I found this related to Selegiline (or Deprenyl):
Quote: DEPRENYL - DOSAGES FOR LIFE EXTENSION PURPOSES - As stated previously, Professor Knoll is a man who 'practises what he preaches' and reportedly takes two 5mg Deprenyl tablets per week. We (Dean, Fowkes and Morgenthaler) recommend the following age adjusted titrated dosage schedule in our book, "Smart Drugs 2" -
Age. Dosage
30-35 1mg twice a week
35-40 1mg every other day
40-45 1mg every day
45-50 2mg every day
50-55 3mg every day
55-60 4mg every day
60-65 5mg every day
65-70 6mg every day
70-75 8mg every day
75-80 9mg every day
80 plus 10mg every day
END QUOTEAnd those levels are just for longevity purposes!
http://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htm
QUOTE: L-phenylalanine, an amino acid, has been shown to increase the effectiveness of Deprenyl. In one European study of 155 patients, 5-10 milligrams of Deprenyl and 250 milligrams of phenylalanine, was administered for depression (Deprenyl is often used as an anti-depression drug) with outstanding results (Dean, 1993). Nearly seventy percent of the patients achieved total alleviation of depression, while more than twenty percent of the remaining patients achieved moderate improvement... smaller study of 10 patients, using only 5 milligrams of Deprenyl, 100 milligrams of vitamin B6, and 1 to 6 grams of phenylalanine were given every other day for major types of depression that had proved resistant to other drug therapies (Dean, 1993). 60 per cent of these patients reported complete relief from depression in only 2 to 3 days... END QUOTEhttp://www.deprenyl.net/
QUOTE: Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. END QUOTEhttp://www.selegiline.com/depplus.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010417/msgs/60824.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011222/msgs/88292.html#searchBTW, I found a used CES device (like a demo model) that still has full warranty and return policy coverages for like $180 so I ordered it today. had some money put away for a trip but the wife said we likely weren't gonig anywhere anyway with the shapoe that I've been in lately... so..... Should have it Monday. I found some sites that referred to it also having a cortisol control effect and also indicated that it might be effective at "re-setting" the HPA Axis. It is a HealthPax Cranial Electrical Stimulator unit. You don't happen to know if that's the model Dr. Braverman uses or not do you?
Anyway, I especially would find the cortisol control aspect of it very "interesting"!
I think that I had slightly elevated cortisol for several years (let's say 1996 - 1999), with a "bump up" then from 2000 - 2002. There was some on-going therapy between July 2002 and early Feb 2004 (which I think caused the cortisol to plaeau off if not recede slightly... but overall, I think that the HP Axis was already "mostly broken" and just waiting for the right trigger). The therapy (and Ambien) was stopped as I "was better" (in fact was feeling greater than I had in years). Then in June of 2004 there was then a family loss situation that provided that trigger and there was suddenly a huge amount of anxiety. That was then soon followed by hypogonadism, strong peripheral neuropathy symptoms, strong UTI type symptoms, and tinnitus... with the first starting within about 2 weeks of the anxiety onset and all of them surfacing within about 2 - 3 weeks of each other! So I think that in one sense the chronic anxiety stressed (over-stressed) the HPA Axis which resulted in chronic high levels of cortisol. The chronic high levels of cortisol enhanced the anxiety and the very severe anxiety "broke" the HPA Axis, causing a steady flood of excessive cortisol which - along with the anxiety - caused the rapid onset of the various physical disorders.
And I think the problem has to be addressed from a multi-faceted approach:
In my case, the first response (after the PCP visits with a couple of Real Klowns) was with endos - as I knew that there was something going on wrong "inside". That's when the super low Test and the super high cortisol was found.
Then I fired things back up with the Psych Doc as the anxiety levels were just continuing to escalate - and I knew that whereas that first time I got away with no meds (other than herbal SJW), that this time around the anxiety was so severe that meds were going to be needed... Plus I later found out that Xanax has been shown to be quite beneficial for several types of tinnitus (and it surely was in my case!).
But hands-on therapy is now the next stage coming up. I am starting things back up with my prior therapist in a couple of weeks. Plus I found out that she is now advanced trained in that EMDR technology so she's going to incorporate that therapy.
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4144
I am also considering adding in the Redirecting Self Therapy into the mix (on my own).
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4083
Also, I believe that the brain neurotransmitters are completely out of balance and that some need boosting (see Dr. Braverman's book, "The Edge Effect"), so I am going to simultaneously address those particulars with specific nutrients and the use of the CES device.
Oh... and on top of all of that, I'm going to address the cortisol levels directly by escalting use of anti-cortisol supps - and maybe trying to actually talk my endo into doing the short-term RU486 therapy for stopping cortisol and re-setting the HPA Axis.
Anxieties and depressions that do not respond effectively to early efforts to correct brain neurotransmiiters are - IMHO - very likely to be a result of a broken HPA Axis... especially, I believe, in scenarios where anxiety started first and depression came in later. Anyway, the system cannot completely turn off the Fight Or Flight Mechanism so until the HPA Axis gets "re-set", the meds don't work, or do for a while and then stop working, and the various therapy approaches either don't work, or work very, very slowly.
Anyway, there has been some interesting research done into the use of RU486 for treating severe depression (and would work similarly IMO in cases of anxiety, etc. that were related to elevated cortisol - which we KNOW exists in my case).
See:
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic.asp (this is my type of depression... active, anxious, agitated)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p040592.html
http://www2.eclinicalpsychiatrynews.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=full&id=aqc04032616
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nnp/research/publication/18411
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2000/november8/ru486-1108.html
http://www.wctv6.com/news/features/1/326156.html
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic_ru486.aspFinally, I strongly think that the pain-feedback mechanism ends up getting involved also. It's funny (ironic - not Ha-ha) that I used to be one who was real stoic about pain, really didn't bother me significantly. But now it's like the chronic ones (like the neuropathies) just clearly add to the anxiety... now actually the Selegiline/DLPA combo actually has some chronic pain relief qualities, so that alone might help out quite a bit. But if not, then I'm looking at pushing for the Lyrica also. Since it is supposed to have a decent anti-anxiety effect also, my hope is that I can get off of the Xanax XR with switching to the Lyrica.
See:
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=7887
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=7893And of course my bottom line objective is to:
(A) Get the HPA Axis fully under control and properly producing correct cortisol levels.
(B) Get the brain neurotransmitters balanced and then optimized so that there is no anxiety and no depression
(C) And that this can all be done with the bonus of getting weaned off of the meds and just relegated to some core supplements, diet, exercise, and proper attitude!
I realize that (C) might be tough. With my age, I might find that I'm stuck with staying on the AndroGel as a continuing TRT therapy. But, if that would be it, I would be more than satisfied!
Well, keep me informed as to your deal with Braverman. I'd specifically ask him about the 5 - 10mg Deprenyl combo with 250 - 500mg DLPA (can always raise the DLPA aspect if not anxiety symptoms are noted)... and also what model CES that they use.
In turn, I'll let you know what type reaction that I get with the CES unit once I get going with it.
> I've been out of the loop a couple of days. My computer crashed and I stopped taking my .5mg of klonopin a couple of days ago. I was taking it for sleep but it was making me more depressed. Now, of course, I haven't slept in 3 days. Damn this sucks!
>
> Man you sound a lot like me...except I knew I was heading for a crash for a long time. I even get the tinitus too! But only in my left ear. To be honest with you I'd rather have it both ears. Hypogonadism also. Which, of course, is always the most distressing thing for a guy. You're right...how could we not be depressed!
>
> I had to postpone my appt. with Dr. Barverman until next week. I've been considering selegiline too. I mentioned it to him the last time I was there. It's one of a rather short list of options. I'm also a little worried about the dopamine agonists making anxiety and insomnia worse. I also worry because I get a lot of muscle twitches and am afraid wellbutrin might push me into seizure-ville. But to be honest I don't even care. I'm going to try it anyway. The thing is we all react differently to these meds. Maybe the people who feel over-stimulated by the pro-dopamine meds. didn't have a dopamine difficiency to begin with. By reading through a lot of these posts I've found that some people actually start sleeping better when they take them. Last night I was rolling around unable to sleep and I got up at 4:30 and popped one of Braverman's brain energy supplements (300mg DLPA/200mg l-tyrosine/75mg rhodiola rosea/60mg methionine/2mg octacosanol) along with 500mg tyrosine, my multi, 100mg Alpha Lipoic Acid and 50mg B6. I've found that this actually helps me sleep better. So maybe if dopamine is the problem, boosting it will help with energy and sleep.
>
> When I took the test in his book I came out: 1.GABA 2.Acetylcholine 3.Dopamine 4.Seratonin. I came out with deficiancies in all of them. But I figure if your really low in any, and are feeling rotten, you're gonna come out pretty deficient across the board. Before I got his book I had blood levels checked which showed me low in everything except epinephrine and (oddly enough) dopamine. Although I was barely within "normal" range for dopamine. But Braverman says blood tests are too unreliable.
>
> I think you're exactly right that a dopamine agonist/re-uptake inhibitor and an anti-convulsant type gabaergic (Lyrica/Neurontin) along with tyrosine, DLPA and plenty of B6 might be the way to go. I think the gabaergic anti-convulsants produce a deeper more natural sleep and less of a "downer" effect than the benzodiazipines. At least in my case in regards to Neurontin vs. Xanax/Klonopin.
>
> Hey what do you know! My Pathroid (Braverman's thyroid formula) just arrived via Fedex. I'll start popping them first thing tomorrow morning. God...what the hell happened to me?
Posted by franco neuro on February 25, 2005, at 22:57:27
In reply to Re: CES » franco neuro, posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 20:40:39
Wow! You said a mouthful with that last post. Some great links too. We're definitely on the same page with this. I'll have to try and pick Braverman's brain this coming visit regarding the selegiline. I've also been reading up on the Lyrica and think that may be a good combo. I wasn't sure if it was approved for use in the U.S. yet but I guess it is. Since I fell into a nice natural sleep on the Neurontin the Lyrica should work just as well if not better. I still may try Wellbutrin but I'm a little worried because nobody seems to know what the mechanism of action is. I have read that some believe it may increase dopamine in some parts of the brain but lower it in others. Even people who should be "in the know" aren't sure what the heck it's doing:
I wish I had been on this site a few years ago. I was coming to all the same conclusions regarding the HPA axis and the "fight or flight" response. My f-or-f response has always been over the top since I was a teanager. I think if I had a small amount of an SSRI then or even some talk therapy I would have been alright. I certainly didn't have a problem with depression or sex drive or enthusiasm for life back than!
Of course trying to find a doc who would listen to this stuff without smirking or who gave me more than 3 minutes with him/her proved to be a fruitless search. I hit plenty of specialists. First my GP. Than endos. Than neuros. Than alternative/complimentary types. I must have seen 50 doctors. My whole experience with these docs caused me so much frustration that i think it actually speeded my phycical decline. I probably don't have to tell you but frustration and anger are killers. Particularly in people who are already anxious or under a lot of stress, as I was during that whole f-ed up period. Which is why I think Braverman will be my last one. After him, it's basically buy meds from overseas and experiment on my own.
You know I've been thinking about the role of PEA too, since I had my neurotransmitter urine test about 4 months ago. (Before the neurotransmitter blood test.) I got it through a complimentary doc who uses NeuroScience labs. I found them on the net and thought they might be on to something. But the thing is my urine PEA levels were really high! As were my histamine and also GABA to a lesser extent. I'm still not sure what this means. The NeuroScience people (they do this by mail and through the doc only) seem to think it means my brain is in a hyper-excited state and I need to push the GABA and seratonin to calm it down. Of course they have their own line of supplement formulas designed to take care of this. I'm still not sure if they're even for real. But the test only cost $126 so I figured what the hell. The Zoloft and Klonopin combo i'm taking don't seem to be doing the trick for me now.
I should be talking to Braverman about all this but believe me he's not easy to talk to. He admits this himself. Me and a couple of his other patients that I know seem to feel he may be bi-polar or have ADHD himself. Which may be why he got into all this brain stuff in the first place. Which is not to say the guy isn't brilliant. During the 1980's he worked at the Princeton Brain Bio-center with Dr. Carl Pfeiffer who is one of the Godfathers of orthomolecular medicine. As a matter of fact I have a couple of his books too: "Mental and Elemantal Nutrients" and "Nutrition and Mental Illness" They are both pretty interesting. He talks a lot about B6 and Zinc and Copper etc.
Right now I'm waiting for "Tuning the Brain" by Dr. Jay Goldstein. This guy probably knows the brain and brain/body connection as well as anybody. He also wrote "Betrayal by the Brain" a few years back. I can't wait until it gets here. It should be really interesting. Be sure to check out the Dr. Preskorn link I attached too. That guy knows his stuff too and has some really good info on various AD's. Maybe I should email him a question about selegiline...
Posted by Elroy on February 25, 2005, at 23:17:23
In reply to Re: CES » Elroy, posted by franco neuro on February 25, 2005, at 22:57:27
RE: Maybe I should email him a question about selegiline....
That sounds like a good idea. He seems somewhat conventional to me and my bet is that he downplays that combination. Some of the clinical studies shown in those earlier links showed some really major results.
And then thre's always that last posting by Pseudonym....
> Wow! You said a mouthful with that last post. Some great links too. We're definitely on the same page with this. I'll have to try and pick Braverman's brain this coming visit regarding the selegiline. I've also been reading up on the Lyrica and think that may be a good combo. I wasn't sure if it was approved for use in the U.S. yet but I guess it is. Since I fell into a nice natural sleep on the Neurontin the Lyrica should work just as well if not better. I still may try Wellbutrin but I'm a little worried because nobody seems to know what the mechanism of action is. I have read that some believe it may increase dopamine in some parts of the brain but lower it in others. Even people who should be "in the know" aren't sure what the heck it's doing:
>
> http://www.preskorn.com
>
> I wish I had been on this site a few years ago. I was coming to all the same conclusions regarding the HPA axis and the "fight or flight" response. My f-or-f response has always been over the top since I was a teanager. I think if I had a small amount of an SSRI then or even some talk therapy I would have been alright. I certainly didn't have a problem with depression or sex drive or enthusiasm for life back than!
>
> Of course trying to find a doc who would listen to this stuff without smirking or who gave me more than 3 minutes with him/her proved to be a fruitless search. I hit plenty of specialists. First my GP. Than endos. Than neuros. Than alternative/complimentary types. I must have seen 50 doctors. My whole experience with these docs caused me so much frustration that i think it actually speeded my phycical decline. I probably don't have to tell you but frustration and anger are killers. Particularly in people who are already anxious or under a lot of stress, as I was during that whole f-ed up period. Which is why I think Braverman will be my last one. After him, it's basically buy meds from overseas and experiment on my own.
>
> You know I've been thinking about the role of PEA too, since I had my neurotransmitter urine test about 4 months ago. (Before the neurotransmitter blood test.) I got it through a complimentary doc who uses NeuroScience labs. I found them on the net and thought they might be on to something. But the thing is my urine PEA levels were really high! As were my histamine and also GABA to a lesser extent. I'm still not sure what this means. The NeuroScience people (they do this by mail and through the doc only) seem to think it means my brain is in a hyper-excited state and I need to push the GABA and seratonin to calm it down. Of course they have their own line of supplement formulas designed to take care of this. I'm still not sure if they're even for real. But the test only cost $126 so I figured what the hell. The Zoloft and Klonopin combo i'm taking don't seem to be doing the trick for me now.
>
> I should be talking to Braverman about all this but believe me he's not easy to talk to. He admits this himself. Me and a couple of his other patients that I know seem to feel he may be bi-polar or have ADHD himself. Which may be why he got into all this brain stuff in the first place. Which is not to say the guy isn't brilliant. During the 1980's he worked at the Princeton Brain Bio-center with Dr. Carl Pfeiffer who is one of the Godfathers of orthomolecular medicine. As a matter of fact I have a couple of his books too: "Mental and Elemantal Nutrients" and "Nutrition and Mental Illness" They are both pretty interesting. He talks a lot about B6 and Zinc and Copper etc.
>
> Right now I'm waiting for "Tuning the Brain" by Dr. Jay Goldstein. This guy probably knows the brain and brain/body connection as well as anybody. He also wrote "Betrayal by the Brain" a few years back. I can't wait until it gets here. It should be really interesting. Be sure to check out the Dr. Preskorn link I attached too. That guy knows his stuff too and has some really good info on various AD's. Maybe I should email him a question about selegiline...
>
>
Posted by Marc Boucher on December 1, 2005, at 17:13:35
In reply to Re: CES » franco neuro, posted by Elroy on February 25, 2005, at 23:17:23
I have met with Dr. Braverman and have one of his CES device.
Here's the link to the maker of it : www.cesultra.com
I find the CES roughly is equivalent to 0.5 Mg of Klonopin. I like it. However, I've only been using it for less than a month now.
Posted by Marc Boucher on December 1, 2005, at 17:25:03
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on February 22, 2005, at 16:11:05
Hi Elroy,
I'm Marc, and I too have met with Braverman slightly more than a month ago--very expensive but seems to be helping, at least so far. I won't write that long about my case, but will as soon as you write back to let me/us know how you're doing and to tell about your Braverman experience--I'd so very much like to hear about it. Since I'm not a New Yorker, I don't know any of his NYC patients, but would like to hear from them a lot.
Please let me know, and then I'll share some more details with you and all on the forum.
Best regards
Marc
Posted by Julie1977 on June 3, 2006, at 11:48:14
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation, posted by Elroy on February 15, 2005, at 20:52:53
Worsening depression
Been using for ten days and my depression has worsened significantly over the last few days (and I can think of no other cause than the Alpha Stim). I don't normally cry but spent hours crying today and having extrememly negative thoughts, cried yesterday too, and on thursday I felt very unbalannced moodwise. I'm wondering if its causing my dysthymia to turn into major depression. Also got minor burns on my ears from using the electrodes (with pads). I feel extremely disappointed as I certainly didn't expect my symptoms to worsen. Now i'm wondering if all of the positive stuff i've read on the net is actually the manufacturers posting and not genuine ppl. I may trial it for a few more days as is sposed to take longer to work on depression but it is making my depression worse so unless there is a n about turn I guess its unwise of me to continue..
Posted by Elroy on June 3, 2006, at 14:08:57
In reply to RE: cranial electrotherapy stimulation, posted by Julie1977 on June 3, 2006, at 11:48:14
Well, it clearly did not work for me either. I had the combiation of severe anxiety and some type of peripheral neuropathy pains of hands and feet and known to have very high levels of cortisol. The CES unitsdid nothing positive overall for either. I even tried two different units (for their respective trial periods) thinking that maybe it was just the specific initial machine.
I can't say that it made the situation worse, but definitely didn't make it better.
Ended up sending both units back (did not have both at same time - had one for a trial period then sent and back and tried a second, different manufacturer).
Went to NIH Hospital for two weeks in Decmber 2005 and was diagnosed with Pseudo Cushings due to chronic and then eventually severe anxiety. Was told that my current anti anxiety regimen of 1 mg of Xanax XR x 2 a day) was way too UNDERmedicated and after my return I was put on 2 mg of Xanax XR 3 times a day). Anxiety levels got much, much better. NIH advised with proper weaning to not worry about withdrawal that most withdrawal stories are hype or simply not properly weaned if higher doses used. The one psych on my team (I had 2, along with several other specialists) advised that probably half of her patients that use Xanax XR in the 4 - 8 mg daily range can come off of that level cold turkey with no withdrawal effects. Also getting my HRT regimen tweaked a little bit better every couple months has helped a lot. I don't know what my cortisol levels have gone to recently as my local Endo hasn't re-started that testing process yet, but like I said it has done wonders for my anxiety levels.
The NIH theory / hope is that reducing the anxiety levels down drastically will allow the hyperactive HPA to settle down and re-set to where it is secreting normal levels of cortisol. That will - in turn - halt the vicious cycle where anxiety causes hyperactive HPA induced cortisol which then increases anxiety levels even more, etc., etc.
We will see. Unfortunately probably won't start cortisol testing again uintil next month.
Elroy
Posted by Marc Boucher on June 4, 2006, at 10:59:43
In reply to Re: CES » Julie1977, posted by Elroy on June 3, 2006, at 14:08:57
I've made use of a CES device ( CES ultra) for couple of months now. It's prescribed by Dr. Braverman. In my personal case, I know it helps with relaxation, despite the change being somewhat subtle--that is after 15 minutes into the session, I start noticing a more relaxed overall state. Mind you, it's said to bring about progressive relaxation. It's no worsened my dysthymia at all, though back when I started to use te device, my anxiety levels at that time were so morbid, that initially, It felt like the device was making my anxiety worse. I later found out that if my baseline anxiety was not hihg, I would derive a positive experience with the CES, where as when my anxiety was soaring, I would get very anxious while using the device, and had palpiations. At that point I'd think that the CES was causing all of it, but I was wrong.
Further, I've tried Dr. Braverman's placement of electrodes ; one electrode over the left radial pulse and the next smack dab in between the eyes, about 1/2'' above eyebrows. Then, recently I've tried the ear clips. I've to say that I think both methods work, yet I think Dr. Braverman's placement of electrodes provides better results, but I'm still not sure about it though.
Despite what i said above, I'm somewhat disapointed to find virtually no third party testimonials over the internet, through forums, or from other neutral parties. The take-home message is that those device, despite what Dr. Braverman claims, have to be used with caution. The lack of evidence, and information (except from the manufacturers' websites) makes me doubtful about their long term effects/consequences.
If their positive effects on depression and anxiety was compelling, it would seem to me that more users would make their experience known to others still battling depression/anxiety, through the internet.
I urge any other users on this forum to share in his/her experience.
Best
Marc
This is the end of the thread.
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